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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 30, 2019 22:37:50 GMT 1
The only sensible thing to do st this point is postpone and figure out what an acceptable brexit actually looks like for leavers. Which is more than likely exactly what will happen. I would think most think this is where we are heading. I would think there will be an extension of article 50 and more talks...unless May can really work wonders.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 30, 2019 22:42:22 GMT 1
The Referendum was flawed in such a binary choice but the irony is that is got so many people voting. Well I hope they can sort it out, because if it were up to some we'd be having a referendum on EU membership every couple of years by the looks. Democracy in action apparently...or maybe just until they get the result they want; we'll see...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 22:42:26 GMT 1
The Referendum was flawed in such a binary choice but the irony is that is got so many people voting. The EU have also shown their true colours in this, 27 vs One. Yes, a binary choice that doesn't reflect the interests of the disenfranchised. As pointed out, the EU looks after its interests and those of its members. Like it has done with us. 'We' chose to leave, this is the consequence. So, its true colours are looking after members. That's what I would expect. And, again, May agreed to the deal.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 30, 2019 22:47:29 GMT 1
As pointed out, the EU looks after its interests and those of its members. And the Tory party looks after it's interests and those of it's members. Result, Britain's going to get screwed.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 30, 2019 23:09:51 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 23:35:32 GMT 1
I've never heard of him and perhaps that's reason enough why we should get the hell out of there. An Unelected German deciding the future of this country.
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 30, 2019 23:54:58 GMT 1
Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU.That was it wasn't it? Completely unconditional. Remain or leave. It really is that simple. That so many people who voted to remain find this so difficult to understand is beyond me... Now people can argue that the referendum and the question put to to those who voted was not fit for purpose, that such a complex topic required much more clarity. That I can certainly understand. Whoever put this together really did fail to understand the difficulties to come on such a complex issue (although we know that's because remain thought they were a shoe in). But for me they don't have a pot to p**s in when it comes to what the actual question that was asked. People voted to remain or leave, that was the choice and that was the decision made. Going on about single market, customs union and whatever else is a nonsense. When looking to the referendum and the question that was asked, it's a nonsense.. As for the ballot paper as what Brexit meant; that would be the 'or leave the EU'. Brexit as in Britain and Exit. Exit it as in leave. Leave the EU... From what we now know the referendum really didn't tackle this as well as it should, that's an understatement. But as things stand, as to what was asked, if they mean to implement the result of the referendum then that would mean without a deal or with a deal (whether that actually plays out is another matter of course). Anyhow, hopefully the latter. Hopefully they can come to some agreement and get a deal sorted with the EU and soon...still haven't got a clue what is happening here... If evidence emerged that convinced you Brexit would do serious economic harm to this country, causing long-term suffering for many people and lasting damage, would you insist on honouring the referendum result, or should there be room for people to say 'hang on, this is a really bad idea'? Oh **** off. Bored to death of hearing "experts" opinion. Same experts that said we'd remain and made a mockery of Trump before he romped it? There's a great big world out there, it's about time we engaged with it. I knew EXACTLY what I voted for and it was a completely clean break from the EU. I'd love it if we went out with no deal.
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Post by shrewsace on Jan 31, 2019 0:09:58 GMT 1
If evidence emerged that convinced you Brexit would do serious economic harm to this country, causing long-term suffering for many people and lasting damage, would you insist on honouring the referendum result, or should there be room for people to say 'hang on, this is a really bad idea'? Oh **** off. Bored to death of hearing "experts" opinion. Same experts that said we'd remain and made a mockery of Trump before he romped it? There's a great big world out there, it's about time we engaged with it. I knew EXACTLY what I voted for and it was a completely clean break from the EU. I'd love it if we went out with no deal. 😂 loving this parody account. Keep up the good work.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 31, 2019 8:06:31 GMT 1
Oh **** off. Bored to death of hearing "experts" opinion. Same experts that said we'd remain and made a mockery of Trump before he romped it? There's a great big world out there, it's about time we engaged with it. I knew EXACTLY what I voted for and it was a completely clean break from the EU. I'd love it if we went out with no deal. 😂 loving this parody account. Keep up the good work. I thought it was a good question and one that makes you think. But then there are many questions that also need to be considered depending on the course taken. Everything from here on in will have consequences... I think the referendum result should be implemented otherwise I really do fear what the consequences are for democracy in the country, trust in our political system isn't too great as is it I suspect and if Parliament were to revoke article 50 and remain in the EU then I think it will open up a whole can of worms. Who knows where that may lead. I am hoping that a deal is agreed and that the UK can leave the EU in an orderly fashion with a deal that results in the UK still being a close and active partner with the EU. Whether that can be achieved, who knows...both sides aren't exactly coming out of this very well, the UK or the EU.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 8:47:47 GMT 1
The Referendum was flawed in such a binary choice but the irony is that is got so many people voting. Well I hope they can sort it out, because if it were up to some we'd be having a referendum on EU membership every couple of years by the looks. Democracy in action apparently...or maybe just until they get the result they want; we'll see... Which let’s be honest would be a terrible idea. I mean I for one think that in any right minded society we should still be under the amazing stewardship of Harold Wilson’s government. The very idea that people change their minds in the face of new evidence is absurd! Just because a couple of Enochs on here say they knew exactly what brexit meant doesn’t mean everyone did. ffs not even brexiteers seem to know, all with their own ideas. Norway, Canada, No deal, TMs abortion of a plan. And let’s be honest, if Nigel “man of the people” Farage had lost we all know he would have accepted the will of the people, disbanded UKIP and gone back to furiously masterbating 3 times a day without any resistance or hesitation or questioning of the result. Said it before, I don’t want another vote. Not happy with result but there it is. But I won’t be lectured by some tools who either don’t live here or have millions squirrelled away if off shore accounts, or simply too old and dusty to worry about the future. rotlaff
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Post by Mortgagehound on Jan 31, 2019 8:55:43 GMT 1
😂 loving this parody account. Keep up the good work. I thought it was a good question and one that makes you think. But then there are many questions that also need to be considered depending on the course taken. Everything from here on in will have consequences... I think the referendum result should be implemented otherwise I really do fear what the consequences are for democracy in the country, trust in our political system isn't too great as is it I suspect and if Parliament were to revoke article 50 and remain in the EU then I think it will open up a whole can of worms. Who knows where that may lead. I am hoping that a deal is agreed and that the UK can leave the EU in an orderly fashion with a deal that results in the UK still being a close and active partner with the EU. Whether that can be achieved, who knows...both sides aren't exactly coming out of this very well, the UK or the EU. What’s the current views on Brexit in Germany Stutty ?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 31, 2019 9:57:12 GMT 1
I thought it was a good question and one that makes you think. But then there are many questions that also need to be considered depending on the course taken. Everything from here on in will have consequences... I think the referendum result should be implemented otherwise I really do fear what the consequences are for democracy in the country, trust in our political system isn't too great as is it I suspect and if Parliament were to revoke article 50 and remain in the EU then I think it will open up a whole can of worms. Who knows where that may lead. I am hoping that a deal is agreed and that the UK can leave the EU in an orderly fashion with a deal that results in the UK still being a close and active partner with the EU. Whether that can be achieved, who knows...both sides aren't exactly coming out of this very well, the UK or the EU. What’s the current views on Brexit in Germany Stutty ? I think they've been more interested in the hand ball these last few weeks, we've had the world cup over here...
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 31, 2019 9:59:02 GMT 1
If evidence emerged that convinced you Brexit would do serious economic harm to this country, causing long-term suffering for many people and lasting damage, would you insist on honouring the referendum result, or should there be room for people to say 'hang on, this is a really bad idea'? Oh **** off. Bored to death of hearing "experts" opinion. Same experts that said we'd remain and made a mockery of Trump before he romped it? There's a great big world out there, it's about time we engaged with it. I knew EXACTLY what I voted for and it was a completely clean break from the EU. I'd love it if we went out with no deal. In what version of reality did Trump "romp" it? Trump is actually a great example of what brexiters supposedly hate. He lost the popular vote (to be clear, a greater number of people voted for Clinton) but won because of the archaic electoral college system which gives the South disproportionate influence. How does that square with your views on the referendum result?
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Post by keithb123 on Jan 31, 2019 10:14:36 GMT 1
Oh **** off. Bored to death of hearing "experts" opinion. Same experts that said we'd remain and made a mockery of Trump before he romped it? There's a great big world out there, it's about time we engaged with it. I knew EXACTLY what I voted for and it was a completely clean break from the EU. I'd love it if we went out with no deal. In what version of reality did Trump "romp" it? Trump is actually a great example of what brexiters supposedly hate. He lost the popular vote (to be clear, a greater number of people voted for Clinton) but won because of the archaic electoral college system which gives the South disproportionate influence. How does that square with your views on the referendum result? The referendum didn't rely on collegiate disproportion though did it? It was a straight vote with 52% to leave 48% to remain.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 31, 2019 10:22:34 GMT 1
In what version of reality did Trump "romp" it? Trump is actually a great example of what brexiters supposedly hate. He lost the popular vote (to be clear, a greater number of people voted for Clinton) but won because of the archaic electoral college system which gives the South disproportionate influence. How does that square with your views on the referendum result? The referendum didn't rely on collegiate disproportion though did it? It was a straight vote with 52% to leave 48% to remain.
By your logic though, Donald Trump being elected president directly contravenes the "will of the people". In fact, there were more faithless electors than in any other election in history; a record 5 ignored the popular vote to elect Trump, 2 defied their voters and backed Clinton. How's that for faceless beaureaucrats ignoring the will of the people? But that's ok when it suits you, right?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 31, 2019 10:26:27 GMT 1
Well I hope they can sort it out, because if it were up to some we'd be having a referendum on EU membership every couple of years by the looks. Democracy in action apparently...or maybe just until they get the result they want; we'll see... Which let’s be honest would be a terrible idea. I mean I for one think that in any right minded society we should still be under the amazing stewardship of Harold Wilson’s government. The very idea that people change their minds in the face of new evidence is absurd! Enochs?! Anyhow... Speaking of Wilson, from what I am reading now the reason why so many over 60's voted 'out' this time around after voting 'in' in the 1975 referendum is because they do not think that they were given the complete story back then as to what membership of the EEC entailed. They changed their minds some time back but 2016 was the first time they were given the opportunity to rectify that error (as they saw it). If they had been given a second referendum, as what is being asked now, we'd have probably been out of the EU way before now. Perhaps that's contributing a fair bit towards their reluctance for a second referendum so soon after the first this time around.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 10:38:43 GMT 1
Why keep persisting in this blatant lie? It's a well documented fact that senior members in the Leave campaign (such as Tory MEP Daniel Hannan amongst others) publically stated that leaving the EU shouldn't jeopardise our access to the single market. You may well have voted in the belief that leave meant WTO rules. A significant proportion of your fellow leave voters didn't, hence the fact our government has been tying itself in knots for two years trying to keep the various warring factions happy. Seriously, answer me this (any of the board's resident hard line brexiters are welcome to chip in on this); if there was a mandate for no deal, why has the government devoted two years and destroyed several careers trying to achieve a deal? Why did several hundred thousand people take to the streets to oppose it? Where did it say on the ballot paper that a vote to leave meant no deal? You are deluded mate, Daniel Hannan publicly stated that leaving the EU SHOULD NOT (very different to will not) jeopardise the access to the single market. Cameron and Osborne spelt out very clearly what leaving meant in many speeches and indeed the £9.3Mil spent on the remain leaflet delivered to every house holder in the country, it was very clear what leaving meant, what it was shady on was detail on consequences, but most leavers were happy and still are happy with the consequences, please don't insult leavers by saying that it was a lie that we were not informed of what leaving meant. As to your serious question about mandate, that was delivered on 23rd June 2016 when 17.2mil people put the cross in the leave box, the Government has has devoted 2 years attempting to get a deal because a REMAINER (someone who would rather remain in the EU) is in charge, this would be different if it was someone who was devoted to leave, Several hundred thousand people to the streets because people like you think people like me are stupid and did not know what we voted for, and it said neither on the ballot paper about what remaining or what leaving meant, because they had devoted the previous 2 years delivering that message from both camps. or it would have been called a ballot book.... Stop being a tool please!!
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 31, 2019 10:53:05 GMT 1
Why keep persisting in this blatant lie? It's a well documented fact that senior members in the Leave campaign (such as Tory MEP Daniel Hannan amongst others) publically stated that leaving the EU shouldn't jeopardise our access to the single market. You may well have voted in the belief that leave meant WTO rules. A significant proportion of your fellow leave voters didn't, hence the fact our government has been tying itself in knots for two years trying to keep the various warring factions happy. Seriously, answer me this (any of the board's resident hard line brexiters are welcome to chip in on this); if there was a mandate for no deal, why has the government devoted two years and destroyed several careers trying to achieve a deal? Why did several hundred thousand people take to the streets to oppose it? Where did it say on the ballot paper that a vote to leave meant no deal? You are deluded mate, Daniel Hannan publicly stated that leaving the EU SHOULD NOT (very different to will not) jeopardise the access to the single market. Cameron and Osborne spelt out very clearly what leaving meant in many speeches and indeed the £9.3Mil spent on the remain leaflet delivered to every house holder in the country, it was very clear what leaving meant, what it was shady on was detail on consequences, but most leavers were happy and still are happy with the consequences, please don't insult leavers by saying that it was a lie that we were not informed of what leaving meant. As to your serious question about mandate, that was delivered on 23rd June 2016 when 17.2mil people put the cross in the leave box, the Government has has devoted 2 years attempting to get a deal because a REMAINER (someone who would rather remain in the EU) is in charge, this would be different if it was someone who was devoted to leave, Several hundred thousand people to the streets because people like you think people like me are stupid and did not know what we voted for, and it said neither on the ballot paper about what remaining or what leaving meant, because they had devoted the previous 2 years delivering that message from both camps. or it would have been called a ballot book.... Stop being a tool please!! Oh Christ, we're back to semantics again now are we? "Just because we put the words "£350m a week" and "NHS" on the side of a massive red bus advertising brexit does not mean we actually wanted to use that money for the NHS. If you thought that was the case, you misunderstood". Daniel Hannan said "absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market". Our very own Owen Paterson said "only a madman would actually leave the market". It's very clear that people were lead to believe a vote for brexit did not mean a vote to leave the single market (despite it being plainly obvious that doing so would mean accepting freedom of movement). The polling data I posted shows that there is still a split between no deal and deal in the leave vote, so much so that no deal (now the most likely outcome) doesn't poll at any more than 30% on any of the polls carried out. Interesting to see you've clocked on to the inherent contradiction in terms of voting brexit and Tory. Can I refer you to my post further up the thread where I made the exact same point?
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 31, 2019 11:07:34 GMT 1
For me, the worst part of this whole mess is that the Bexiteers, Boris, Gove, etc. got off the bus and walked away when they won the referendum.
If they thought that getting out was such a good thing that they campaigned hard enough to swing the vote, then they ought to have overseen it through.
If negotiations had started from a hard Brexit plan then by now sense would have prevailed in the areas it needed to.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 11:59:20 GMT 1
Boris and Gove were too busy stabbing each other in the back. Both thought they were prospective PMs. God help us. Perhaps Bill Cash would have been a possibility as he has consistently chipped and chipped at the EU for god knows how many years. He and his ilk are the main reason we are mistrusted and have never really committed to the EU.
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Post by percy on Jan 31, 2019 12:42:14 GMT 1
The probabilities to be used in pricing models at work showed "no deal" being greater (33%) than a second referendum (27%) for the first time yesterday - " deal" remains the most likely option, but it is sliding.
Watching this is like watching the days and now hours of the transfer window being ticked off and just hoping beyond hope that we pull something out of the bag that will stave off relegation.
Personally I fail to see the problem with a second referendum - if the Brexiteers are so convinced that they reflect the will of the people even now that the implications are clearer, then why do they object ? Surely it is worth following the old saying of measuring twice and cutting once ?
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 31, 2019 12:51:34 GMT 1
Boris and Gove were too busy stabbing each other in the back. Both thought they were prospective PMs. God help us. Perhaps Bill Cash would have been a possibility as he has consistently chipped and chipped at the EU for god knows how many years. He and his ilk are the main reason we are mistrusted and have never really committed to the EU. Mr Cash chipped and chipped at the EU for years, but maybe he is getting a bit old for it now (78).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 14:00:54 GMT 1
Oh Christ, we're back to semantics again now are we? Daniel Hannan said "absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market". Our very own Owen Paterson said "only a madman would actually leave the market". It's very clear that people were lead to believe a vote for brexit did not mean a vote to leave the single market (despite it being plainly obvious that doing so would mean accepting freedom of movement). The polling data I posted shows that there is still a split between no deal and deal in the leave vote, so much so that no deal (now the most likely outcome) doesn't poll at any more than 30% on any of the polls carried out. Interesting to see you've clocked on to the inherent contradiction in terms of voting brexit and Tory. Can I refer you to my post further up the thread where I made the exact same point? God man, you are really hard work, Did you receive the leaflet that was sponsored by the Government prior to the referendum. Did you read it, Daniel Hannan may have said many things, but listen to what the prime minister said, who was leading the remain campaign, and the person in power to fully express, and did, what a vote LEAVE meant. Rather than some back bench MP.... Here is a link to the leaflet that was paid for by the tax payer!! how much clearer can you get?? assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/525022/20160523_Leaflet_EASY_READ_FINAL_VERSION.pdfPage 4 :- On June 23rd we can choose whether the UK should either: • Remain in the European Union (EU) or • Leave the European Union (EU). WHAT IT MEANT..... David Cameroon explains what parts of the EU we will leave (All of it) and what we remain in (Non of it) www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-ukPlease stop saying we were not informed of leaving the single market or the customs union, we were, very clearly!! Even 2 days prior to the Referendum.... www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-latest-live-david-cameron-full-speech-remain-leave-a7093426.html
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 31, 2019 14:08:37 GMT 1
Prepare for a massive U turn when Theresa has to finally delay the Brexit date. Expect they will come up with another inappropriate car buying analogy type of excuse. But, quite simply, a delay is no problem if we end up with a workable solution.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 14:19:22 GMT 1
Prepare for a massive U turn when Theresa has to finally delay te Brexit date. Expect they will come up with another inappropriate car buyinng analogy type of excuse. But, quite simply, a delay is no problem if we end up with a workable solution. I still think both will u turn.... If May is the only one to concede then she will not get it through Parliament, and No Deal will go ahead...
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Post by timgallon on Jan 31, 2019 18:00:37 GMT 1
Daniel Hannan said "absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market". Our very own Owen Paterson said "only a madman would actually leave the market". A good number of the quotations out there attributed to prominent Leave players like Patterson have been purposely edited to misrepresent the speaker by Remainer groups like Open Britain. Problem with that approach is that other people pick you up on it, like Andrew Neil did.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 31, 2019 19:54:14 GMT 1
Daniel Hannan said "absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market". Our very own Owen Paterson said "only a madman would actually leave the market". Problem with that approach is that other people pick you up on it, like Andrew Neil did. Do like Andrew Neil, from what I see one of very few on the box who will take people to task no mater what the topic...
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Post by keithb123 on Jan 31, 2019 21:17:00 GMT 1
The referendum didn't rely on collegiate disproportion though did it? It was a straight vote with 52% to leave 48% to remain.
By your logic though, Donald Trump being elected president directly contravenes the "will of the people". In fact, there were more faithless electors than in any other election in history; a record 5 ignored the popular vote to elect Trump, 2 defied their voters and backed Clinton. How's that for faceless beaureaucrats ignoring the will of the people? But that's ok when it suits you, right? Read my f*cking reply, instead of trying to warp it..
Put it however you want so you can justify your argument. I never mentioned Trump except in response to other posts. The referendum was a straight vote yes or no..
Getting sick to death of people on here saying i'm a racist, a thick tw@t, dim, etc. etc. I had a choice stay in the sham that is the EU or leave. I voted leave and couldn't give a flying f*ck about leaving with a no deal. People need to stop thinking the EU is the be all and end all, talk about brainwashed.
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Post by mattmw on Jan 31, 2019 21:38:06 GMT 1
Prepare for a massive U turn when Theresa has to finally delay the Brexit date. Expect they will come up with another inappropriate car buying analogy type of excuse. But, quite simply, a delay is no problem if we end up with a workable solution. Quite agree What a lot of people don’t realise is the even if the Withdrawl agreement (in its current or amended form) gets through the UK and EU Parliament by the end of March that’s only part of the picture. There is then a long transition period where the trade negotiations take place for at least two years, but could well be a lot longer In that case pushing back the Withdrawl date by a few months is neither here nor there if it gets the deal done. Far better to get it right than rush it for the sake of sticking to a date just for the sake of it
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Post by tvor on Jan 31, 2019 21:47:36 GMT 1
Prepare for a massive U turn when Theresa has to finally delay the Brexit date. Expect they will come up with another inappropriate car buying analogy type of excuse. But, quite simply, a delay is no problem if we end up with a workable solution. Quite agree What a lot of people don’t realise is the even if the Withdrawl agreement (in its current or amended form) gets through the UK and EU Parliament by the end of March that’s only part of the picture. There is then a long transition period where the trade negotiations take place for at least two years, but could well be a lot longer In that case pushing back the Withdrawl date by a few months is neither here nor there if it gets the deal done. Far better to get it right than rush it for the sake of sticking to a date just for the sake of it Given how long it has taken to produce a 500 odd page document and still not be able to get it agreed I think two years for the subsequent transition period negotiations is highly optimistic. The documents produced during that phase are said to be likely to run into thousands of pages for example.
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