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Post by stfcfan87 on May 8, 2015 19:15:52 GMT 1
Also ironic that the tories painted the appalling mess that their would be of a Labour & SNP combination. What we now have is a Tory domination in one country who want more cuts and austerity and in another country it's SNP domination and the exact opposite desire. How the frig is the UK as a whole going to survive???
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 8, 2015 19:39:50 GMT 1
I never want to see Labour in power again I find that a puzzling comment Stutty. The alternative is a One Party State ( there is no alternative to either a Tory or Labour Government ) Any democracy worth its salt needs checks and balances and this system we have - as flawed as some would have us believe - gives us the best possible chance of saying to a particular Government that we don't like what they have done. Potentially this result will give us a chance to have real alternatives in the future, of course that's only if The Labour Party can sort themselves out. Big if ! Indeed. However, I would rather see another party move ahead of Labour to play that role. And I do not think that it beyond the realms of possiblity. I think as time moves forward more and more people will turn away from Labour and look elsewhere.
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Post by scooter on May 8, 2015 19:45:39 GMT 1
I find that a puzzling comment Stutty. The alternative is a One Party State ( there is no alternative to either a Tory or Labour Government ) Any democracy worth its salt needs checks and balances and this system we have - as flawed as some would have us believe - gives us the best possible chance of saying to a particular Government that we don't like what they have done. Potentially this result will give us a chance to have real alternatives in the future, of course that's only if The Labour Party can sort themselves out. Big if ! Indeed. However, I would rather see another party move ahead of Labour to play that role. And I do not think that it beyond the realms of possiblity. I think as time moves forward more and more people will turn away from Labour and look elsewhere. Well it doesn't look as if it will be Libdems. And ukip are further right than the Tories so where does that leave us? Only real opposition are labour unless the SNP start putting up candidates in England
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 8, 2015 19:54:00 GMT 1
Indeed. However, I would rather see another party move ahead of Labour to play that role. And I do not think that it beyond the realms of possiblity. I think as time moves forward more and more people will turn away from Labour and look elsewhere. Well it doesn't look as if it will be Libdems. And ukip are further right than the Tories so where does that leave us? Only r eat opposition are labour unless the SNP start putting up candidates in England Who knows what will happen in time. I know a lot of people will have a chuckle at UKIP today with just the one seat but just look at the numbers who voted for them. And they haven't been around for that long. I think it does show that people today are now, more than ever, open to looking beyond the Tories and Labour. I know people will gibber on about racist blah blah but I still firmly believe that the vast majority of people who vote UKIP do so because the main political parties simply do not listen to their concerns and fears and they feel abandoned. You make efforts to engage with this people and I believe you will make in roads. No one is saying this is going to happen over night but I do hope in time that things will change. I think the UK needs change and it needs a real alternative to the Tories and Labour. And as daft as it sounds the rise of UKIP in a relatively short amount of time gives me hope that that is possible...if they can do it then why not someone else... I may be off, talking complete b******s, politics isn't my thing to be honest. But that's how I see it...
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Post by frankwellshrews on May 8, 2015 19:55:13 GMT 1
Great post from Stowmarket Shrew. The public sector needs talented, conscientious individuals more than ever now, yet the country seems determined to drive them away. Very sad state of affairs.
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Post by SeanBroseley on May 8, 2015 20:02:49 GMT 1
First time in a while I've voted for someone in a GE who hasn't lost their deposit.
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Post by jamo on May 8, 2015 20:07:41 GMT 1
I find that a puzzling comment Stutty. The alternative is a One Party State ( there is no alternative to either a Tory or Labour Government ) Any democracy worth its salt needs checks and balances and this system we have - as flawed as some would have us believe - gives us the best possible chance of saying to a particular Government that we don't like what they have done. Potentially this result will give us a chance to have real alternatives in the future, of course that's only if The Labour Party can sort themselves out. Big if ! Indeed. However, I would rather see another party move ahead of Labour to play that role. And I do not think that it beyond the realms of possiblity. I think as time moves forward more and more people will turn away from Labour and look elsewhere. I guessed that thats what you were alluding too but where is that challenge coming from ? From what's on offer to the electorate today there is simply no alternative. My hope is, that after the kicking it received today that The Labour Party spends a good couple of years navel gazing and trying to work out what it really stands for and who it is hoping to appeal to / represent, as currently I think they have fallen between several different stools.
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Post by shrewsace on May 8, 2015 20:35:31 GMT 1
I think many people in the UK are generally scared of Labour and the direction they would take the country. I think the Tories are a bunch of self serving S.O.B's but rather them than Labour and I suspect that's how a fair few people were thinking yesterday. I never want to see Labour in power again. Just picking up the bits and pieces this morning on the Beeb and it's mad how this works. More people voted for UKIP than SNP yesterday yet look to many seats each party has. Makes it all a bit of a farce that... The LibDems eh. Just when we need them. Just when the time was ripe for them to make strides they are completely on their arse... What is it about Labour you are fundamentally opposed to? Would you refuse to vote for them ever again regardless of policies purely because the party bears the name 'Labour'? What do you want to see from a party offering an alternative to Tory policies?
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Post by shrewsace on May 8, 2015 20:42:08 GMT 1
However unpalatable the upcoming cuts may be, they are going to have to happen. We cannot continue to spend more than we earn, I for one do not want to pass on a milestone of spiralling debt to my children and that is the view of the electorate who have endorsed the Tory’s plans for a further 5 years. Were you aware that Osborne borrowed more in his first three years as chancellor than Labour did in its preceding 13 years in government? Can't blame you if you weren't , it's not been widely reported, apparently eating a bacon sandwich in a bit of a spoddy way is more newsworthy for the Scum, Times etc. But this won't change your mind, will it? Once people by into a narrative they tend to stick with it...odd...
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 20:53:08 GMT 1
However unpalatable the upcoming cuts may be, they are going to have to happen. We cannot continue to spend more than we earn, I for one do not want to pass on a milestone of spiralling debt to my children and that is the view of the electorate who have endorsed the Tory’s plans for a further 5 years. Were you aware that Osborne borrowed more in his first three years as chancellor than Labour did in its preceding 13 years in government? Can't blame you if you weren't , it's not been widely reported, apparently eating a bacon sandwich in a bit of a spoddy way is more newsworthy for the Scum, Times etc. But this won't change your mind, will it? Once people by into a narrative they tend to stick with it...odd... I was well aware, but thank you. But the point remains starkly valid, the deficit has to be tackled and the voting public have decided to put their trust in the Conservative party to do so. I'm sure that many would have made an informed choice to do so.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 20:58:48 GMT 1
However unpalatable the upcoming cuts may be, they are going to have to happen. We cannot continue to spend more than we earn, I for one do not want to pass on a milestone of spiralling debt to my children and that is the view of the electorate who have endorsed the Tory’s plans for a further 5 years. It's the younger generation that are and will continue to suffer! - Have to take on a big loan to go to uni - Higher Unemployment for young people - If they do get a decent job they'll have to pay back thousands from uni days - Virtually impossible to get on the housing market - The NHS as we've known it for years will have been destroyed in a few years - As opposed to being able to retire at 65 they'll be lucky if it's before 70 and then god knows what pension they'll have I couldn't agree with you more. The last 2 points you make will impact on the older generation even more so.
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Post by SeanBroseley on May 8, 2015 21:06:14 GMT 1
IRJBA's favourite economist writing in 2013: William Keegan Self-inflicted.
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Post by frankwellshrews on May 8, 2015 21:10:17 GMT 1
However unpalatable the upcoming cuts may be, they are going to have to happen. We cannot continue to spend more than we earn, I for one do not want to pass on a milestone of spiralling debt to my children and that is the view of the electorate who have endorsed the Tory’s plans for a further 5 years. Were you aware that Osborne borrowed more in his first three years as chancellor than Labour did in its preceding 13 years in government? Can't blame you if you weren't , it's not been widely reported, apparently eating a bacon sandwich in a bit of a spoddy way is more newsworthy for the Scum, Times etc. But this won't change your mind, will it?
Once people by into a narrative they tend to stick with it...odd... www.amazon.co.uk/When-Prophecy-Fails-Leon-Festinger/dp/1578988527en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonanceOn your last point, I strongly recommend a read of the above book about the theory of cognitive dissonance. It explains an awful lot (and is also actually a genuinely good read despite appearing to be a bit 'heavy') Festinger's theory was nicely illustrated by chaddyshrew above who informs that although he's aware that the Tories borrowed more than Labour, he still agrees with them that government borrowing is an issue that needs to be tackled and the Tories are apparently the best people to do it.
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Post by percy on May 8, 2015 21:29:41 GMT 1
The Labour Party will hopefully now realise that we are not in the 1970's and that Blair's move to the middle was a damn good one - the social security system is a safety net and redistribution of wealth is to help the weakest and not punish the rich.
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Post by mattmw on May 8, 2015 21:35:27 GMT 1
Were you aware that Osborne borrowed more in his first three years as chancellor than Labour did in its preceding 13 years in government? Can't blame you if you weren't , it's not been widely reported, apparently eating a bacon sandwich in a bit of a spoddy way is more newsworthy for the Scum, Times etc. But this won't change your mind, will it? Once people by into a narrative they tend to stick with it...odd... I was well aware, but thank you. But the point remains starkly valid, the deficit has to be tackled and the voting public have decided to put their trust in the Conservative party to do so. I'm sure that many would have made an informed choice to do so. That to me is the scary and depressing thing about the election. I'm pretty sure most voters are very aware that the economic problems of recent years are not all down to Labour, but more complex global reasons that most western economies are dealing with. They also know that type of problem and the debt it created needs tacking over a long period with everyone contributing their bit. However come election time when we get some idea of who might pick up the pieces most people have taken the "I'm all right jack" approach and thought **** it let some other sap - such as the poor, disabled and displaced pick up the tab The reason the polls didn't pick up the Conservative win is people are embarrassed to admit it. It's that shallow self interest that led them to vote the way they did, and the Ed bacon sandwich media coverage gives them that extra little excuse to think its ok The daft thing is the middle class, middle earning Conservative voter who thinks the party is on their side is just the sort of person whose going to get hammered in the next five years. Unless you earn 100k plus the next five years is going to be a very bleak period
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Post by QuorndonShrew on May 8, 2015 21:39:23 GMT 1
Good to see the old Labour dinosaurs coming home to roost tonight.
I wonder when chubby Lembit Opik will realise the result of this election is simply reaping what he and his 'comrades' sowed. Trade unions imposed Ed Miliband on Labour, proving again how deeply and hopelessly out of touch they are.
Both movements are six feet under as of last night.
Good riddance.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 21:41:13 GMT 1
Can anyone remind me how many MPs UKIP have? How is that revolution going?
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Post by QuorndonShrew on May 8, 2015 21:47:35 GMT 1
Can anyone remind me how many MPs UKIP have? How is that revolution going? Thank the lord for small mercies eh
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 21:49:34 GMT 1
It's the younger generation that are and will continue to suffer! - Have to take on a big loan to go to uni - Higher Unemployment for young people - If they do get a decent job they'll have to pay back thousands from uni days - Virtually impossible to get on the housing market - The NHS as we've known it for years will have been destroyed in a few years - As opposed to being able to retire at 65 they'll be lucky if it's before 70 and then god knows what pension they'll have I couldn't agree with you more. The last 2 points you make will impact on the older generation even more so. The point on retirement is an interesting one. Age of retirement of 65 was initially set in 1940 when male avg life expectancy was just pretty similar - around 65 years. Nowadays it's closer to 80 and is forecast to be closer to 83 years by 2032.
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Post by mattmw on May 8, 2015 21:55:11 GMT 1
Can anyone remind me how many MPs UKIP have? How is that revolution going? Don't by any means go along with UKIP view on things but the millions of votes they picked up can't be dismissed. Under a PR system that would be about 80 seats As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, if the other parties just shrug their shoulders and think UKIP is not worth bothering about that is disenfranchising a significant percentage of the population, and the fears they have.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 22:11:32 GMT 1
Can anyone remind me how many MPs UKIP have? How is that revolution going? Thank the lord for small mercies eh Don't mention it.
enjoy your small mercies
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Post by ssshrew on May 8, 2015 22:18:13 GMT 1
Good to see the old Labour dinosaurs coming home to roost tonight. I wonder when chubby Lembit Opik will realise the result of this election is simply reaping what he and his 'comrades' sowed. Trade unions imposed Ed Miliband on Labour, proving again how deeply and hopelessly out of touch they are. Both movements are six feet under as of last night. Good riddance. Don't understand this. Lembit Opik was a LibDem?! He was the Montgomery MP and I don't remember him being particularly chubby?!
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Post by stfcfan87 on May 8, 2015 22:25:01 GMT 1
I couldn't agree with you more. The last 2 points you make will impact on the older generation even more so. The point on retirement is an interesting one. Age of retirement of 65 was initially set in 1940 when male avg life expectancy was just pretty similar - around 65 years. Nowadays it's closer to 80 and is forecast to be closer to 83 years by 2032. Exactly So for the legions who have been able retire already they will get on average 15 years of pensions, will have paid off their mortgages already and own houses worth several hundred thousand. But that'll not be the case for anyone under 30 now. But we've gotta carry on ****ing over younger people because the older generation dont want to pass on the debts they've run up. Brilliant
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Post by QuorndonShrew on May 8, 2015 22:34:34 GMT 1
Good to see the old Labour dinosaurs coming home to roost tonight. I wonder when chubby Lembit Opik will realise the result of this election is simply reaping what he and his 'comrades' sowed. Trade unions imposed Ed Miliband on Labour, proving again how deeply and hopelessly out of touch they are. Both movements are six feet under as of last night. Good riddance. Don't understand this. Lembit Opik was a LibDem?! He was the Montgomery MP and I don't remember him being particularly chubby?! Sorry. 'Chubby Lembit Opik' was a reference to our local 'UNITE' rep who occasionally trolls these boards with his nonsense. Think Lembit Opik with thinning hair and a bigger waistband. That's your fella.
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Post by thesensationaljt on May 8, 2015 22:44:17 GMT 1
In my opinion, all MPs are s**thouses.
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Post by mattmw on May 8, 2015 22:47:00 GMT 1
I realise I'm not in the best of moods today, or for the next five years, but is it at all possible for folks to make their points about the election without resorting to comments about people's personal appearances
There is more than enough to get stuck into about politics without needing to bring looks into it
Thank you kindly
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on May 8, 2015 23:04:48 GMT 1
The point on retirement is an interesting one. Age of retirement of 65 was initially set in 1940 when male avg life expectancy was just pretty similar - around 65 years. Nowadays it's closer to 80 and is forecast to be closer to 83 years by 2032. Exactly So for the legions who have been able retire already they will get on average 15 years of pensions, will have paid off their mortgages already and own houses worth several hundred thousand. But that'll not be the case for anyone under 30 now. But we've gotta carry on ****ing over younger people because the older generation dont want to pass on the debts they've run up. Brilliant What debts? I paid into state and company pensions all my working life, are you suggesting that I'm not entitled to what I paid for? Us older people don't exist in a vacuum, I realise how hard it is for my children and grandchildren and help them as much as I can. Plus my 90 year old mother is in a nursing home that has to be paid for. We all have our problems and I'm sure they will get worse during the next 5 years.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on May 8, 2015 23:08:41 GMT 1
What does everybody think about the Scottish independence issue given the inroads the SNP made in the election?
Personally I don't think it changes much. If anything there's more of an onus for Sturgeon to make it work within the Westminster model. The SNP can no longer claim to be under-represented or claim that they got the government they didn't vote for, if you accept that they contributed in putting Cameron back in number 10 by kicking out Labour.
SNP won about 50% of the overall vote in Scotland. If you consider many of them will have been ex-Labour voters who voted 'No' in September or people undecided on the independence question, if you held a re-vote tomorrow I don't think the outcome would be an awful lot different to what it was.
Sturgeon and Salmand's quest for another independence referendum is unrepentant but not being involved in any coalition and the added expectations of having a sizeable voice in Westminster might cause the party to re-think its path in the not to decent future.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 0:56:27 GMT 1
The point on retirement is an interesting one. Age of retirement of 65 was initially set in 1940 when male avg life expectancy was just pretty similar - around 65 years. Nowadays it's closer to 80 and is forecast to be closer to 83 years by 2032. Exactly So for the legions who have been able retire already they will get on average 15 years of pensions, will have paid off their mortgages already and own houses worth several hundred thousand. But that'll not be the case for anyone under 30 now. But we've gotta carry on ******* over younger people because the older generation dont want to pass on the debts they've run up. Brilliant The 'youth' will probably be making the same noises when we're about to retire.... The population is aging due to improved health care and quality of life. Can't have it both ways unless you want to introduce a mandatory maximum life expectancy! While I'm 'into' reading about UK stats, how much funding are we expecting the Tories to cut for the NHS? I've read that alcohol costs UK society £21bn a year and of that the NHS takes a £3.5bn hit. Maybe time for society to start helping itself rather than looking to blame others. Prohibition anyone? www.nta.nhs.uk/uploads/adult-alcohol-statistics-2013-14-commentary.pdfOf course alcohol (as with any product/service) has a tax / business benefit that I haven't included here but why spoil a good post
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Post by markglasgow on May 9, 2015 0:56:43 GMT 1
What does everybody think about the Scottish independence issue given the inroads the SNP made in the election? Personally I don't think it changes much. If anything there's more of an onus for Sturgeon to make it work within the Westminster model. The SNP can no longer claim to be under-represented or claim that they got the government they didn't vote for, if you accept that they contributed in putting Cameron back in number 10 by kicking out Labour. SNP won about 50% of the overall vote in Scotland. If you consider many of them will have been ex-Labour voters who voted 'No' in September or people undecided on the independence question, if you held a re-vote tomorrow I don't think the outcome would be an awful lot different to what it was. Sturgeon and Salmand's quest for another independence referendum is unrepentant but not being involved in any coalition and the added expectations of having a sizeable voice in Westminster might cause the party to re-think its path in the not to decent future. Having 50 more MPs in the building changes quite a lot. Miliband's approval rating in Scotland was actually worse than David Cameron's so there won't be many tears shed for him north of the border tonight. Being part of a coalition isn't as favourable as it may seem. Clegg and Cable may have destroyed their party forever by accepting that poisoned chalice. Not sure if you are best placed to comment on any potential forthcoming referendum. Scottish politics have changed forever. The referendum was the catalyst and suddenly the only major party who fought for independence is the overwhelming choice of the Scottish people. If there was a referendum tomorrow there would be little doubt what the result would be. We Scots do expect or want a another independence vote anytime soon. The SNP are very aware of this. However factors such as a comfortable Tory election victory, strong support for UKIP, Main opposition party in disarray and last but not least a European Referendum may bring a new vote forward. Scots have never been more so out of sync with the rest of the UK. It's not a matter of if, more a matter of when.
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