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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 16:05:33 GMT 1
I'm not having this "Turner should have gone after he kept us up". 16th place finish in our first season in League One is more than respectable. We got our foot in the door and we had a good platform to build on. Turner did well to get rid of the " deadwood" it was just who he got in. Our summer signings were Mkandawire,Winfield,Marsden and McQuade and once the transfer window closed, we all knew we were in for a struggle. All in the past now, Mellon has built a very good squad and that relegation might be the best thing to happen to this club. Yep totally agree. Amazing how last season's disappointment has been extended to 2 seasons of misery by some, who on various expectation threads pre 1st season back in league 1, were expecting a lower mid table finish (which was achieved). We played some decent stuff at the start of that season without much reward and the team eventually had to find a less eye catching style to pick up more points. The spine of the team was lost and some of the other stars from the L2 promotion season failed to step up to L1 standard. With one of the lower budgets in L1, I wouldn't call that season a success but it certainly wasn't a failure... And I also agree with your diagnosis of last season's disappointment: poor signings in the Summer as well as failure to secure other players who would have coped well in L1. The glut of loan signings were just a consequence of that, but I bet Mellon is glad GT's plan B wasn't to recruit a handful of sub standard players on permanent contracts, whom he would have been lumbered with.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 16:22:17 GMT 1
What if... What if we had gone up at the end of GT's first season? (We should have done, and only a cross-eyed linesman denied us.) Then the players that GT had got in earlier that season would still have had another 12 months on their contracts. So we'd have had the likes of Sharps, SCS, Collins etc for our first season in League 1. How would we have got on? Better, I would guess, and it would have given GT a chance to assess the new standard, and then recruit & replace in a more perceptive manner. Or then again, maybe not. Recruiting seemed to become a unachievable skill for him, and his loan ranging was either unlucky or totally uninspired. We'll never know will we but many have expressed the view that the 2011/2 squad intact, would have coped well in L1. The biggest blow though was to receive next to nothing (except a bit for Collins) for the decent players that left. That's why it will give us a better platform if we go up this season, with the best players under contract: we will have them or some very decent transfer monies. Interesting comment on recruitment: GT definitely lost his magic wand but don't underestimate the significance of budget. Melllon has recruited really well (as GT did in L2). Mellon has a better structure behind him at the club now than GT had, but both regimes failed to recruit Chris Dagnall... money talks, and we will need to find a way of increasing the budget if we go up.
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Post by shrewed46 on Feb 19, 2015 16:32:36 GMT 1
Paul, maybe you'd like to answer the following questions:
Who failed to resign the spine of the team after promotion? Who failed to replace our key striker? How much smaller was our budget than other teams? Who signed players without them being watched by the club? Wasn't it a case of no decent signings last season rather than poor signings? Why didn't players want to join the club? Who was responsible for the signings?
Relegation last season generated a multitude of questions to be discussed but unfortunately the answer to most is Graham Turner.
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Post by shrewed46 on Feb 19, 2015 16:40:56 GMT 1
Interesting comment on recruitment: GT definitely lost his magic wand but don't underestimate the significance of budget. Melllon has recruited really well (as GT did in L2). Mellon has a better structure behind him at the club now than GT had, but both regimes failed to recruit Craig Dagnall... money talks, and we will need to find a way of increasing the budget if we go up. I Assume you mean Chris Dagnall, Paul. The difference between GT and MM is that MM had an alternative line up if Dagnall turned us down
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Post by TheFoz on Feb 19, 2015 17:14:24 GMT 1
I'm not having this "Turner should have gone after he kept us up". 16th place finish in our first season in League One is more than respectable. I'm afraid I disagree with you. 16th may have been a respectable position to finish in but the way we achieved it was anything but acceptable. The football was boring and unattractive players were brought in on short loan contracts. It was clear in August that the team to compete in Division 1 was weaker than the one that had just got promoted. By November it was obvious we were going to struggle. Turner had once again proved himself an excellent Division 2 manager, but was once again failing at the higher level. In my opinion, which I expressed at the time, November 2012 was the time GT should have resigned the fact that he waited another 14 months and choose the worst possible time to go does in my mind damage his legend status. November 2012? No chance. 2 seasons of brilliant work and a decent start to life in League One, why resign? Everything was going to plan for me til Summer 2013. We got promoted, got a 16th place finish which would have provided a good platform to push on. Turner's summer recruitment was shocking but fair play to the bloke for resigning and giving us a chance. Turner over a mid table League Two team and left us in League One, things could have gone better but he will always have my respect.
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Post by shrewed46 on Feb 19, 2015 17:29:36 GMT 1
By 3rd November we were out of the league cup, fa cup and the JPT. The league record by the end of November was Won 4 drawn 6 lost 11 hardly a decent start. More like relegation form.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 17:39:47 GMT 1
Why oh why are some on this board so keen to drag up this old chestnut yet again?
It's been and gone for goodness sake can we not put it to bed and move on?
It's the same old arguments being brought up yet again.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 17:47:03 GMT 1
Why oh why are some on this board so keen to drag up this old chestnut yet again? It's been and gone for goodness sake can we not put it to bed and move on? It's the same old arguments being brought up yet again. Surely past successes and failures are always acceptable fare for a football messageboard I would have thought. The present may put those successes and failures in a different light which may add/take away weight to some of those "old" arguments. We would all love to have another crack at L1 very soon so it seems reasonable to me, to chew over the mistakes of/reasons for last season?
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Post by mattmw on Feb 19, 2015 18:01:44 GMT 1
Think unless either Turner or the Chairman sit down and write an honest and open account of the 2013/14 season we'll never really know what caused that season to be such a disaster - I suspect like most things in life it's down to a combination of collective errors, circumstance and dare I say it a bit of luck too.
Think the important thing is it doesn't seem to have hit the club too badly, and just maybe enough lessons were learnt from the process to help us move forward in the future.
Don't think League one will be easy, should we get there, and still much work to do to secure our position there, but from the ashes of last season a new structure seems to be emerging which is stronger than the last one
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 18:15:58 GMT 1
I've said it a few times but GT should have stepped down after the first season in L1, he had got us promoted and kept us up in L1, legendary status in tact. I could of perhaps understood him stopping on if had a spine of players with some promising youngsters he wanted to play but that wasnt the case, his approach was to build the team with loans, and as Matt has said we will never know the reason for that.
As for Jackson, yes he inherited a poor squad but he was partly responsible for that squad, he was able to bring in players and also had a relatively 'easy' run-in against many teams around us. He promised to have a go and let the players express themselves yet what we saw was some pretty depressing and gutless performances. I'm a big GT fan but anyone who saw that Rotherham game would have seen a team/manager that was struggling (to put it mildly)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 18:28:38 GMT 1
I've said it a few times but GT should have stepped down after the first season in L1, he had got us promoted and kept us up in L1, legendary status in tact. I could of perhaps understood him stopping on if had a spine of players with some promising youngsters he wanted to play but that wasnt the case, his approach was to build the team with loans, and as Matt has said we will never know the reason for that. As for Jackson, yes he inherited a poor squad but he was partly responsible for that squad, he was able to bring in players and also had a relatively 'easy' run-in against many teams around us. He promised to have a go and let the players express themselves yet what we saw was some pretty depressing and gutless performances. I'm a big GT fan but anyone who saw that Rotherham game would have seen a team/manager that was struggling (to put it mildly) Do you really believe his intention pre 2013/4 was to build a team with loan players? But agree about Jackson and was surprised just how many were still canvassing for him as manager at the end of the season. However, I'm sure Jacko will get another chance at management in the future and will be so much the wiser for his experience last season... IMO he's a great coach.
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Post by Exkeeper on Feb 19, 2015 20:07:20 GMT 1
What if... What if we had gone up at the end of GT's first season? (We should have done, and only a cross-eyed linesman denied us.) Then the players that GT had got in earlier that season would still have had another 12 months on their contracts. So we'd have had the likes of Sharps, SCS, Collins etc for our first season in League 1. How would we have got on? Better, I would guess, and it would have given GT a chance to assess the new standard, and then recruit & replace in a more perceptive manner. Or then again, maybe not. Recruiting seemed to become a unachievable skill for him, and his loan ranging was either unlucky or totally uninspired. We'll never know will we but many have expressed the view that the 2011/2 squad intact, would have coped well in L1. The biggest blow though was to receive next to nothing (except a bit for Collins) for the decent players that left. That's why it will give us a better platform if we go up this season, with the best players under contract: we will have them or some very decent transfer monies. Interesting comment on recruitment: GT definitely lost his magic wand but don't underestimate the significance of budget. Melllon has recruited really well (as GT did in L2). Mellon has a better structure behind him at the club now than GT had, but both regimes failed to recruit Chris Dagnall... money talks, and we will need to find a way of increasing the budget if we go up. Dagnall was happy to sign for GT until Orient offered him substantially more money. I am sure that would sway it for most of us. He was also keen to join the Mellon project but Orient blocked the move by asking for silly money. Don't ask me how I know this, but I would not post on here unless I knew it to be true.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 20:14:32 GMT 1
We'll never know will we but many have expressed the view that the 2011/2 squad intact, would have coped well in L1. The biggest blow though was to receive next to nothing (except a bit for Collins) for the decent players that left. That's why it will give us a better platform if we go up this season, with the best players under contract: we will have them or some very decent transfer monies. Interesting comment on recruitment: GT definitely lost his magic wand but don't underestimate the significance of budget. Melllon has recruited really well (as GT did in L2). Mellon has a better structure behind him at the club now than GT had, but both regimes failed to recruit Chris Dagnall... money talks, and we will need to find a way of increasing the budget if we go up. Dagnall was happy to sign for GT until Orisnt offered him substantially more money. I am sure that would away it for most of I us. He was also keen to join the Mellon project but Orient blocked the move by asking for silly money. Don't ask me how I know this, but I would not post on here unless I knew it to be true. That doesn't surprise me and I bet GT had similar situations with other players. Mellon recently moved on from Dagnall to Barnett but that cost us a significant sum of money. Regardless of the pulling power of the manager, it's often the money offered which is the key thing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 20:57:24 GMT 1
I've said it a few times but GT should have stepped down after the first season in L1, he had got us promoted and kept us up in L1, legendary status in tact. I could of perhaps understood him stopping on if had a spine of players with some promising youngsters he wanted to play but that wasnt the case, his approach was to build the team with loans, and as Matt has said we will never know the reason for that. As for Jackson, yes he inherited a poor squad but he was partly responsible for that squad, he was able to bring in players and also had a relatively 'easy' run-in against many teams around us. He promised to have a go and let the players express themselves yet what we saw was some pretty depressing and gutless performances. I'm a big GT fan but anyone who saw that Rotherham game would have seen a team/manager that was struggling (to put it mildly) Do you really believe his intention pre 2013/4 was to build a team with loan players? I can't remember if it was an official quote or just hearsay in the aftermath of GT going but do remember hearing that GT had decided that his approach would be that he would attempt to attract the better players on loan, the reason for that was he didnt feel that the club could afford to attract the standard of players he wanted on a permanent basis (very much on the Hereford model). If it wasnt his intention to use loan players last season then do you think it was a good strategy to start the season with Tom Bradshaw & Jon Marsden as our only strikers?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 21:15:12 GMT 1
Being in a room whilst the board of directors told the supporters parliament that Shrewsbury had one of smallest budgets in league 1 but that 2013/14 was meant to be the promotion push season was a 'moment of truth' for me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 21:29:51 GMT 1
Being in a room whilst the board of directors told the supporters parliament that Shrewsbury had one of smallest budgets in league 1 but that 2013/14 was meant to be the promotion push season was a 'moment of truth' for me. Yep that's the crux of the matter.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 21:43:13 GMT 1
Do you really believe his intention pre 2013/4 was to build a team with loan players? I can't remember if it was an official quote or just hearsay in the aftermath of GT going but do remember hearing that GT had decided that his approach would be that he would attempt to attract the better players on loan, the reason for that was he didnt feel that the club could afford to attract the standard of players he wanted on a permanent basis (very much on the Hereford model). If it wasnt his intention to use loan players last season then do you think it was a good strategy to start the season with Tom Bradshaw & Jon Marsden as our only strikers? I don't think anyone thought the make up of the squad at the start of last season was good enough and I have never heard the quote/hearsay in your first paragraph. My opinion is that he ended up in that situation, not by design or strategy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 21:49:53 GMT 1
I can't remember if it was an official quote or just hearsay in the aftermath of GT going but do remember hearing that GT had decided that his approach would be that he would attempt to attract the better players on loan, the reason for that was he didnt feel that the club could afford to attract the standard of players he wanted on a permanent basis (very much on the Hereford model). If it wasnt his intention to use loan players last season then do you think it was a good strategy to start the season with Tom Bradshaw & Jon Marsden as our only strikers? I don't think anyone thought the make up of the squad at the start of last season was good enough and I have never heard the quote/hearsay in your first paragraph. My opinion is that he ended up in that situation, not by design or strategy. You could well be right but that was the second time that strategy happened, that is particularly poor after the "we won't make the same mistakes" lines. I know it won't make any difference whatsoever but I would really love to know the reasons for the transfer policy last season.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 22:54:04 GMT 1
Paul, maybe you'd like to answer the following questions: Who failed to resign the spine of the team after promotion? Who failed to replace our key striker? How much smaller was our budget than other teams? Who signed players without them being watched by the club? Wasn't it a case of no decent signings last season rather than poor signings? Why didn't players want to join the club? Who was responsible for the signings? Relegation last season generated a multitude of questions to be discussed but unfortunately the answer to most is Graham Turner. Ok.
Who was the first manager to get us promoted for the first time in nearly twenty years from div 2. All of the above happened in division1 which having got there was a bitter pill to swallow but at least he got us there unlike a succession of failures messers Peters, Simpson, Ratcliffe and to a lesser extent Quinn.
The people that are quick to twist the knife into Turner shouldn't forget that.
GT earned the right to fail because he succeeded where others hadn't.
I just hope history doesn't repeat itself for Mellon and I really hope it doesn't.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Feb 19, 2015 23:06:15 GMT 1
Paul, maybe you'd like to answer the following questions: Who failed to resign the spine of the team after promotion? Who failed to replace our key striker? How much smaller was our budget than other teams? Who signed players without them being watched by the club? Wasn't it a case of no decent signings last season rather than poor signings? Why didn't players want to join the club? Who was responsible for the signings? Relegation last season generated a multitude of questions to be discussed but unfortunately the answer to most is Graham Turner. Ok.
Who was the first manager to get us promoted for the first time in nearly twenty years from div 2. All of the above happened in division1 which having got there was a bitter pill to swallow but at least he got us there unlike a succession of failures messers Peters, Simpson, Ratcliffe and to a lesser extent Quinn.
The people that are quick to twist the knife into Turner shouldn't forget that.
GT earned the right to fail because he succeeded where others hadn't.
I just hope history doesn't repeat itself for Mellon and I really hope it doesn't.
Good post
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Post by mattmw on Feb 19, 2015 23:10:45 GMT 1
Think the budget issue, both in terms of wages and transfer fees is one the club as a whole misjudged over the two seasons in league one
My uniformed view is that the club manager and Chairman offered what they considered to be good contracts to the likes of Collins, Sharps, etc, and it genuinely surprised then that other clubs offered better deals - most notably Swindon with the Collins deal. Which also cost is time and money while Swindon delayed the fee through a tribunal
Once that happened I think a mixture of not wanting to risk the clubs financial stability, plus a certain amount of stubbornness/old thinking by Turner and Wycherley, saw us stick to an unrealistic budget, and possibly a reputation in the football world we wouldn't pay the wages needed for league one. Possibly our network of contacts at other clubs wasnt as good as it should have been either
Not being able to attract decent full time signings we then set out on the loan route, which in year one kind of worked out - primarily due to the goal scoring patch Eaves went through when he first joined on loan, but failed in the second mainly due to Eaves turning into Robbie Turner
Looking from the outside in, it would seem the appointment of Matt Williams has been key, and has perhaps given a more rounded view on what's realistic in terms of wages in leagues one and two, and paying that bit extra is needed. Plus Williams and Mellon, and to his credit Jackson, have the contacts to make decent signings
As others have said, the big test comes in league one where competition for players gets greater, and wages much more of an issue. Every club has its natural league position based on its attendances and income, and its not yet clear if we're progressing from to top ten league two side to a top ten league 1 side
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 23:15:34 GMT 1
Think the budget issue, both in terms of wages and transfer fees is one the club as a whole misjudged over the two seasons in league one My uniformed view is that the club manager and Chairman offered what they considered to be good contracts to the likes of Collins, Sharps, etc, and it genuinely surprised then that other clubs offered better deals - most notably Swindon with the Collins deal. Which also cost is time and money while Swindon delayed the fee through a tribunal Once that happened I think a mixture of not wanting to risk the clubs financial stability, plus a certain amount of stubbornness/old thinking by Turner and Wycherley, saw us stick to an unrealistic budget, and possibly a reputation in the football world we wouldn't pay the wages needed for league one. Possibly our network of contacts at other clubs wasnt as good as it should have been either Not being able to attract decent full time signings we then set out on the loan route, which in year one kind of worked out - primarily due to the goal scoring patch Eaves went through when he first joined on loan, but failed in the second mainly due to Eaves turning into Robbie Turner Looking from the outside in, it would seem the appointment of Matt Williams has been key, and has perhaps given a more rounded view on what's realistic in terms of wages in leagues one and two, and paying that bit extra is needed. Plus Williams and Mellon, and to his credit Jackson, have the contacts to make decent signings As others have said, the big test comes in league one where competition for players gets greater, and wages much more of an issue. Every club has its natural league position based on its attendances and income, and its not yet clear if we're progressing from to top ten league two side to a top ten league 1 side Very good summing up of what went wrong for STFC under Turner in league 1.
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Post by markglasgow on Feb 19, 2015 23:51:29 GMT 1
The whole scenario regarding last season leaves a very bitter taste and will for sometime to come.
The transfer policy was flawed and the budget given to the manager meant that a season of struggle was always on the cards. This despite having substantial reserves in the back which Mr Mellon is make fine use of at present. It was also disappointing to hear the chairman have a thinly veiled swipe that the aforementioned policy, despite obviously signing off all these loan deals personally.
I can't help but feel that RW is determined to step down on a high. If he had left at the end of last season his tenure would have been viewed by most unfavourably, despite our progress under his leadership. If his ego has driven change and increased investment then I have no great issue with that. Just a shame that we had to endure the shambles of last season before RW's epiphany has dragged the club back on track.
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Post by mattmw on Feb 20, 2015 0:01:56 GMT 1
The whole scenario regarding last season leaves a very bitter taste and will for sometime to come. The transfer policy was flawed and the budget given to the manager meant that a season of struggle was always on the cards. This despite having substantial reserves in the back which Mr Mellon is make fine use of at present. It was also disappointing to hear the chairman have a thinly veiled swipe that the aforementioned policy, despite obviously signing off all these loan deals personally. I can't help but feel that RW is determined to step down on a high. If he had left at the end of last season his tenure would have been viewed by most unfavourably, despite our progress under his leadership. If his ego has driven change and increased investment then I have no great issue with that. Just a shame that we had to endure the shambles of last season before RW's epiphany has dragged the club back on track. Only other point to add is had Turner gone earlier - either at start of 2012/13 season or the 2013/14 one I'm not sure the changes with the chief exec role and different approach to transfers would have come in In someways we needed someone with Turner's history with the club to fail in league 1 for the club to sit up and think things had to be done differently
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Post by TheFoz on Feb 20, 2015 0:40:44 GMT 1
The whole scenario regarding last season leaves a very bitter taste and will for sometime to come. The transfer policy was flawed and the budget given to the manager meant that a season of struggle was always on the cards. This despite having substantial reserves in the back which Mr Mellon is make fine use of at present. It was also disappointing to hear the chairman have a thinly veiled swipe that the aforementioned policy, despite obviously signing off all these loan deals personally. I can't help but feel that RW is determined to step down on a high. If he had left at the end of last season his tenure would have been viewed by most unfavourably, despite our progress under his leadership. If his ego has driven change and increased investment then I have no great issue with that. Just a shame that we had to endure the shambles of last season before RW's epiphany has dragged the club back on track. Only other point to add is had Turner gone earlier - either at start of 2012/13 season or the 2013/14 one I'm not sure the changes with the chief exec role and different approach to transfers would have come in In someways we needed someone with Turner's history with the club to fail in league 1 for the club to sit up and think things had to be done differently Completely agree with you, relegation was hard to take but it has given us a new block to build on. If we kept this squad together, hopefully get promotion, I am very confident they could job in the division above. Our first game in League one had the likes of Jones,Hector,Purdie,Richards (out of position, Gornell, Morgan,summerfield,parry etc. We are much stronger now. I maintain this is the strongest team I have seen since I've supported town (10ish years) , even if we are in league two.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Feb 20, 2015 1:05:33 GMT 1
Being in a room whilst the board of directors told the supporters parliament that Shrewsbury had one of smallest budgets in league 1 but that 2013/14 was meant to be the promotion push season was a 'moment of truth' for me. What board of directors?
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Post by shrewed46 on Feb 20, 2015 10:14:44 GMT 1
Oh Lord I guess Quinn should have been allowed to get us relegated to the Conference because he'd got us promoted. Now thats a novel idea.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 10:21:13 GMT 1
Oh Lord I guess Quinn should have been allowed to get us relegated to the Conference because he'd got us promoted. Now thats a novel idea. but not from league 2. Which was my point!!
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Post by shrewed46 on Feb 20, 2015 10:24:38 GMT 1
Think the budget issue, both in terms of wages and transfer fees is one the club as a whole misjudged over the two seasons in league one My uniformed view is that the club manager and Chairman offered what they considered to be good contracts to the likes of Collins, Sharps, etc, and it genuinely surprised then that other clubs offered better deals - most notably Swindon with the Collins deal. Which also cost is time and money while Swindon delayed the fee through a tribunal Once that happened I think a mixture of not wanting to risk the clubs financial stability, plus a certain amount of stubbornness/old thinking by Turner and Wycherley, saw us stick to an unrealistic budget, and possibly a reputation in the football world we wouldn't pay the wages needed for league one. Possibly our network of contacts at other clubs wasnt as good as it should have been either Not being able to attract decent full time signings we then set out on the loan route, which in year one kind of worked out - primarily due to the goal scoring patch Eaves went through when he first joined on loan, but failed in the second mainly due to Eaves turning into Robbie Turner Looking from the outside in, it would seem the appointment of Matt Williams has been key, and has perhaps given a more rounded view on what's realistic in terms of wages in leagues one and two, and paying that bit extra is needed. Plus Williams and Mellon, and to his credit Jackson, have the contacts to make decent signings As others have said, the big test comes in league one where competition for players gets greater, and wages much more of an issue. Every club has its natural league position based on its attendances and income, and its not yet clear if we're progressing from to top ten league two side to a top ten league 1 side Although your analysis of the situation for the first season in Division 1 it does not justify the lack of a change of direction for last season. Many of us would have accepted a season of poor performances in the 2012 -13 season if GT had not made the same mistakes again the following season. In fact his signings both permanent and loan were considerable worse.
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Post by shrewed46 on Feb 20, 2015 10:26:35 GMT 1
Oh Lord I guess Quinn should have been allowed to get us relegated to the Conference because he'd got us promoted. Now thats a novel idea. but not from league 2. Which was my point!! Me thinks you're being selective.
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