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Post by mattmw on Aug 9, 2011 16:18:53 GMT 1
Think it would be a mistake to over simplify the reasons for the riots, and suspect a variety of reasons for it
The people rioting clearly care little for their community, and either through bravado or lack of anything to loose don't seem scared of their actions impacting on their future life prospects. To me that is both a scary and a depressing condemnation of our society
Sending more and more police into the area, or even the army in would stop the immediate problems, but it's not a long term solution and indeed might actually cost more than the damage bring done by looting in the first place
There needs to be an examination of how a system that let's such actions become common place and actions put in place that tackle them. Education, employment, buildings, the economy, policing and punishment all need looking at it your going to start making a difference.
Knee jerk political reactions (both left and right) to events need to be put to one side too - these events haven't happened over night and won't be fixed overnight by trying to fit your political views round reasons for this happening
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Post by timgallon on Aug 9, 2011 16:41:23 GMT 1
News reporting that it is going off in West Brom now!
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Post by Dan F on Aug 9, 2011 16:44:47 GMT 1
Just had a text from my wife saying "rioting in Derby". Not sure where she's heard that, but could be worrying. Sure Mr. Bloomfield will have all the news on Radio Derby...
EDIT:
She heard it at work, apparently it's kicked off in Primark and they've closed the Westfield centre (main shopping centre in Derby). Can't find owt online, not got access to Twitter at the moment which would probably a decent place for info.
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Post by El Huracán!!!! on Aug 9, 2011 16:48:16 GMT 1
Will text Colin now and ask him about what its like in Derby... wont be the first time one of my texts has disrupted his drive time show on BBC radio Derby!
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Post by Dan F on Aug 9, 2011 16:49:07 GMT 1
Edited some more info into my last post. Know what you mean El H - but mine usually slating his musical tastes on Twitter He doesn't like Abba.. .
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 16:53:19 GMT 1
E News reporting that it is going off in West Brom now! Just heard that.200 youths smashing windows and looting. Running skirmishes with police. Personally I think there is a greater danger of over complicating this Matt. It's also been reported just on BBC, reporting on the court appearances of those arrested last night, that many where from well outside London, and included graduates, youth workers, a 47 year! Students ect, little mention of unemployed. I'm sure your right and yes I may be over simplifying this, but tv pictures of people breaking into shops and walking off with tvs ect suggests to me the reasoning behind it for many, is nothing more or less than self gratification and a lack of law enforcement.
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Post by El Huracán!!!! on Aug 9, 2011 16:54:47 GMT 1
Colin text back
We love a bit of Rioting usually but night off tonight. There are lots of rumorus but nothing Concerte as yet. GAME ON!
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Aug 9, 2011 16:55:08 GMT 1
Got to agree with Matron on this one
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Post by El Huracán!!!! on Aug 9, 2011 16:57:50 GMT 1
Rather Worrying that amazons biggest movers (items whos sales have increased the most in the last 24 hours) are all baseball bats and police baton type things! www.amazon.co.uk/gp/movers-and-shakers/sports/ref=zg_bs_tabYobs getting them on order for the weekend, or the normal folks preapring to defend there homes?
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Post by townfanincrewe on Aug 9, 2011 17:11:04 GMT 1
I just hope the police are allowed to give the scum a real good kicking tonight. Why spend good money locking them up. Just stop their income support. Their parents would soon want them home then.
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Post by blood red shrews on Aug 9, 2011 17:47:11 GMT 1
They're just rumours been going round all day regarding westfield and primark but there have been no problems in Derby today.......so far.
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Post by shrew4life on Aug 9, 2011 18:12:21 GMT 1
Kicking off in Dudley as well
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brumshrew
Midland League Division One
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Post by brumshrew on Aug 9, 2011 18:20:59 GMT 1
Playing devil's advocate here but does anyone think that the police's sluggish response might be a reaction to the govt's cuts? In short, would you rush to tackle a rioting mob if you thought your reward would be the sack? Could this be a subtle warning to the uk of what might happen if there are a lot less police on our streets?
West Midlands police regularly deal with blues and villa games yet now they can't stopbless than a thousand kids smashing up the city centre?
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Post by stfcfan87 on Aug 9, 2011 19:00:59 GMT 1
yeah but controlling a football game is one thing as the vast majority of the fans are in one place i.e. the ground, what's going on at present is there's a very wide area to cover and the police don't know where the trouble is going to start and when. even if you covered one street totally, there could be something going off half a mile away
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Post by El Presidente on Aug 9, 2011 20:30:21 GMT 1
Time to build a few more prisons to allow courts to sentence appropriately? Time to relax PACE ( www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/pace-codes/ ) to allow quicker, more simplified processing of arrested suspects? Time to increase police numbers to ensure we can police even without consent? Time to increase budgets to allow all officers to be specially trained in dealing with disorder? Time to break with tradition and allow use of water cannon and PB? Much for Theresa to consider...
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worcshrew
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Post by worcshrew on Aug 9, 2011 20:36:00 GMT 1
Riot at Pride Park at the moment
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Post by WindsorShrew on Aug 9, 2011 21:14:12 GMT 1
Had to go back into work at West Brom tonight.
I only hope we don't get more "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" rhetoric from our political masters.
Lets really get tough on those that do not wish to live by the rules.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Aug 9, 2011 21:17:36 GMT 1
Can't see this stopping without the army moving in - that is if we still have any army left here and they havn't all been shipped out to sort out other countries conflicts that is.
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Post by El Presidente on Aug 9, 2011 22:06:01 GMT 1
Interesting read for the 'where are the police' brigade... www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14462319In sum: What emerges is that there is never one answer to unrest. What does appear important is the mindset of the police officers and their units. In order to be bold and assertive they need to be confident, and confidence grows from public and political support.
For part of the battle on the streets is psychological. A mob smells uncertainty. In Hackney yesterday young men attacked shops within sight of police lines. They felt the streets belonged to them. That, too, is the lesson from Europe. History or controversy weighs heavily on forces facing unrest.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Aug 9, 2011 22:07:35 GMT 1
Smart move moving all the police to London, keeping there relatively quiet, whilst trouble kicks off where the officers have been removed from. Predictable.
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Post by shrewsace on Aug 9, 2011 22:29:04 GMT 1
Also worth reading from the BBC website www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14463452Prof Pitts says riots are complex events and cannot be explained away as "just thuggery". They have to be seen against the backdrop of "growing discontents" about youth unemployment, education opportunities and income disparities. He says most of the rioters are from poor estates who have no "stake in conformity", who have nothing to lose. "They have no career to think about. They are not 'us'. They live out there on the margins, enraged, disappointed, capable of doing some awful things."
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Post by aldo on Aug 9, 2011 22:33:03 GMT 1
Think it would be a mistake to over simplify the reasons for the riots, and suspect a variety of reasons for it The people rioting clearly care little for their community, and either through bravado or lack of anything to loose don't seem scared of their actions impacting on their future life prospects. To me that is both a scary and a depressing condemnation of our society Sending more and more police into the area, or even the army in would stop the immediate problems, but it's not a long term solution and indeed might actually cost more than the damage bring done by looting in the first place There needs to be an examination of how a system that let's such actions become common place and actions put in place that tackle them. Education, employment, buildings, the economy, policing and punishment all need looking at it your going to start making a difference. Knee jerk political reactions (both left and right) to events need to be put to one side too - these events haven't happened over night and won't be fixed overnight by trying to fit your political views round reasons for this happening cheers, sums it up pretty well for me. The thought that this is just simple theft shows how little people actually know about the sort of people the rioters are. they have been growing up with no moral lead in the inner cities and elswhere, 3rd and 4th generation criminals who have no regard for the law. you cant judge them by normal standards. they are the underclass who have been ignored and kept down by successive governments for decades, now we reap the harvest of presentation politics where we vote for the nicest man and not the policies. focus group politics to fool the public rather than actually confronting the real issues. To think that it's just nasty evil people who have sprung up from nowhere is utterly stupid, these people have been brought up in our country whilst we all stood by and let it happen, they have been through our system and nobody has had the resources or the care to do anything about it. and now it all spills out before us, we demand action , when we didnt want to know until it hit us head on. the side effects of a greed based society and this country deserves it, all of us.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Aug 9, 2011 22:35:08 GMT 1
Think it would be a mistake to over simplify the reasons for the riots, and suspect a variety of reasons for it The people rioting clearly care little for their community, and either through bravado or lack of anything to loose don't seem scared of their actions impacting on their future life prospects. To me that is both a scary and a depressing condemnation of our society Sending more and more police into the area, or even the army in would stop the immediate problems, but it's not a long term solution and indeed might actually cost more than the damage bring done by looting in the first place There needs to be an examination of how a system that let's such actions become common place and actions put in place that tackle them. Education, employment, buildings, the economy, policing and punishment all need looking at it your going to start making a difference. Knee jerk political reactions (both left and right) to events need to be put to one side too - these events haven't happened over night and won't be fixed overnight by trying to fit your political views round reasons for this happening cheers, sums it up pretty well for me. The thought that this is just simple theft shows how little people actually know about the sort of people the rioters are. they have been growing up with no moral lead in the inner cities and elswhere, 3rd and 4th generation criminals who have no regard for the law. you cant judge them by normal standards. they are the underclass who have been ignored and kept down by successive governments for decades, now we reap the harvest of presentation politics where we vote for the nicest man and not the policies. focus group politics to fool the public rather than actually confronting the real issues. To think that it's just nasty evil people who have sprung up from nowhere is utterly stupid, these people have been brought up in our country whilst we all stood by and let it happen, they have been through our system and nobody has had the resources or the care to do anything about it. and now it all spills out before us, we demand action , when we didnt want to know until it hit us head on. the side effects of a greed based society and [glow=red,2,300]this country deserves it, all of us[/glow]. Serious? Innocent civilians deserve to see their homes and businesses go up in smoke?
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Post by aldo on Aug 9, 2011 22:43:08 GMT 1
cheers, sums it up pretty well for me. The thought that this is just simple theft shows how little people actually know about the sort of people the rioters are. they have been growing up with no moral lead in the inner cities and elswhere, 3rd and 4th generation criminals who have no regard for the law. you cant judge them by normal standards. they are the underclass who have been ignored and kept down by successive governments for decades, now we reap the harvest of presentation politics where we vote for the nicest man and not the policies. focus group politics to fool the public rather than actually confronting the real issues. To think that it's just nasty evil people who have sprung up from nowhere is utterly stupid, these people have been brought up in our country whilst we all stood by and let it happen, they have been through our system and nobody has had the resources or the care to do anything about it. and now it all spills out before us, we demand action , when we didnt want to know until it hit us head on. the side effects of a greed based society and [glow=red,2,300]this country deserves it, all of us[/glow]. Serious? Innocent civilians deserve to see their homes and businesses go up in smoke? that's the problem, we have been taught to see the world in individual terms rather than as a society. as a society, we have brought this on ourselves. we all know there are plenty of "nasty " people out there, you hear the likes of downie and others calling them scum quite often. in doing so we section society off as the governments like us to, instead of seeing it as a whole organic thing. as a society, we have caused this to happen by standing by and letting it. Individually it is sad for people but i believe we are all culpable to some degree
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 23:02:46 GMT 1
Aldo that post has actually made me angry
Ive been brought up to expect to earn a living and not expect things to be given to me. Ive been brought up to respect other people and their property. Ive been brought up to know the difference between right and wrong
Because of that i have very little in common with these rioting and im certainly not accepting any responsibility for them
Yes they may have problems in their life but please dont make them out to be victims
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Post by aldo on Aug 9, 2011 23:16:37 GMT 1
Aldo that post has actually made me angry Ive been brought up to expect to earn a living and not expect things to be given to me. Ive been brought up to respect other people and their property. Ive been brought up to know the difference between right and wrong Because of that i have very little in common with these rioting and im certainly not accepting any responsibility for them Yes they may have problems in their life but please dont make them out to be victims and that is the problem, they are our people, brought up in our country. the fact that you feel so distant is part of the problem. you feel no link to them, and they none to you . we are alienated from each other as a nation. why should they give a s**t about people like you when your attitude is equally hostile to them? they dont know the people whose homes and businesses they are ruining, they dont undestand "normal " live or values, they dont feel part of the world they live in. so they dont give a s**t about it. It treats them badly and they are kicking back at it you seriously dont think this is just a random happening do you? there are reasons for everything and i think that the separate nature of our social structure is partly to blame for what is happening. we are all victims in this, them, the shop and house holders, us for having to watch it. its awful, we agree on that. Why are they victims? because they have so little respect for themselves and the world that they live in, that they are prepared to have like this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 23:24:15 GMT 1
Group mentality plays a part here too I think. People involved not necessarily immoral enough to throw the brick that breaks the window but happy to take the TV on the grounds that others are doing it and 'if I didn't take it someone else would'.
And our fault as a society for not being more understanding? Perhaps. But also perhaps the realisation that there is not enough deterrent for law breakers in society too. Not enough ability to bollock a school child when they've done wrong, or discipline your child when they need to be taught a lesson. Draconian methods? Quite possibly, but that doesn't mean that for some it's not the right solution.
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Post by aldo on Aug 9, 2011 23:32:07 GMT 1
Group mentality plays a part here too I think. People involved not necessarily immoral enough to throw the brick that breaks the window but happy to take the TV on the grounds that others are doing it and 'if I didn't take it someone else would'. And our fault as a society for not being more understanding? Perhaps. But also perhaps the realisation that there is not enough deterrent for law breakers in society too. Not enough ability to B*****k a school child when they've done wrong, or discipline your child when they need to be taught a lesson. Draconian methods? Quite possibly, but that doesn't mean that for some it's not the right solution. It isnt a case of just more understanding of each other, but taking responsibility for each other and not walking on by or looking the other way because it is uncomfortable to see the "underclass". I have no problem with a tough punishment for people who know better but these people dont. they may know the rules but they dont care about them. My childrens school disciplines my children if needed but that is a rarity because i think it is my responsibility to make sure they know what will happen if they dont behave. but i dont hit my children, it is possible to discipline children more effectively if you engage with them and find out what they value. good point on the group mentality btw, once the first stone is thrown , it is a free for all
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 23:38:35 GMT 1
Cheers. I see your point about the caring/ understanding etc. and while of course there are times that this works it's not a one all and be all solution. If, for example, a water cannon had been deployed early doors in all of this with a threat of more being deployed, would we have seen so many following the rioting antics of those in London? I'd like to think not.
It's like when we discussed football managers and in particular Neil Warnock. Some didn't like the way he really got in his players' faces when they were losing at half-time; for others it's a necessary evil to make them wake up and realise what they're doing wrong.
As for people not caring about the rules, I don't mind that, it's breaking them that is the issue. And by having tougher deterrents in the first place you'd make people realise they can't act like the way they have without serious repurcussions.
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Post by aldo on Aug 9, 2011 23:52:37 GMT 1
Cheers. I see your point about the caring/ understanding etc. and while of course there are times that this works it's not a one all and be all solution. If, for example, a water cannon had been deployed early doors in all of this with a threat of more being deployed, would we have seen so many following the rioting antics of those in London? I'd like to think not. It's like when we discussed football managers and in particular Neil Warnock. Some didn't like the way he really got in his players' faces when they were losing at half-time; for others it's a necessary evil to make them wake up and realise what they're doing wrong. As for people not caring about the rules, I don't mind that, it's breaking them that is the issue. And by having tougher deterrents in the first place you'd make people realise they can't act like the way they have without serious repurcussions. water cannons? maybe, but i believe one of the problems with them is that they are slow to deploy so really are better if trouble is expected. plenty of bystanders get injured by them too and then you have more problems with angry residents alledging heavy handed tactics. I think you have to remember something about these people, they havent been brought up in comfrortable surroundings with a good moral compass , like you and me. you know this, you are a clever bloke, theyre society isnt like ours, they dont play golf with their work pals or go fishing with friends. all they have is what they can grab, so few are the opportunities. i heard a chap from a deprived area of london with a bucket load of qualis, who cant get a job because of the school he went to and the area he lives in. I really cant wrap my head around that. I also hear of the gang culture that is a stronger influence on the urban children than school, parents or church. They have no expectations of a life like ours, all they can see is they're current reality, something common with depression interestingly. It is a mistake to try and judge them by our standards. If I lived they're lives, I would be rioting tonight.
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