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Post by monkee on Jun 27, 2010 19:27:54 GMT 1
there was some research last season that showed our incidence of injury was much higher than those countries who have a break at christmas. i cant find a link to it at the moment, but it seemed pretty compelling at the time.
with this in mind, do the top clubs have our national teams interests at heart? do they act responsibly when they go off on tours when the evidence(that i cant find!) shows that they are in need of a break?
should the F.A. have more control over how many games a player can play? they do it at junior levels, so why not at adult level? are the players health and safety being looked after or risked by the top clubs?
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Post by RBA on Jun 27, 2010 19:44:15 GMT 1
I know comparisons are not the whole story but it is noticeable that England cricket has slowly but surely been on the up since central contracts I am not sure the Premiership are bothered about a successful football team They pay lip service to it but not much more
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Post by poolieshrew on Jun 27, 2010 20:02:24 GMT 1
I know comparisons are not the whole story but it is noticeable that England cricket has slowly but surely been on the up since central contracts I am not sure the Premiership are bothered about a successful football team They pay lip service to it but not much more Your not far off and since the introduction of elitest premier league structure the focus on England from chairman to players is less as is our progress to latter rounds of competitions.
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Post by Dale on Jun 27, 2010 20:27:01 GMT 1
This is an interesting topic, I do feel Rooney's poor showing in WC 2010 is down to 'burnout', he bases his game at charging around the pitch at a substantial speed but he has not the chance to stop at any point over the last ten months.
I can see a 3 week winter break arriving to the Premier League and Championship fairly soon.
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Post by blood red shrews on Jun 27, 2010 20:33:13 GMT 1
I think there could be an argument for a winter break in world cup years for the top flight.
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Post by poolieshrew on Jun 27, 2010 21:04:01 GMT 1
Well they should all benefit fom this extended 3 week summer break in south Africa then when the more important premier lg kicks off in August....! Winter break is needed but right now is just another excuse in the long list of excuses that just doesnt stack up when you analyse some of the England players abject performances.
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Post by wibbin on Jun 27, 2010 21:34:04 GMT 1
I can see a 3 week winter break arriving to the Premier League and Championship fairly soon. I can't see it. There is far too much money involved and the FA have no power to do anything about after selling their soul to the premier league and SKY. Reaping exactly what they sew.
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Post by stockportershrew on Jun 27, 2010 21:41:42 GMT 1
presumably though they wouldn't stop playing in those three weeks. They'd be off on a lucrative tour of friendlies in Asia.
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Post by Ned on Jun 27, 2010 21:52:18 GMT 1
They need to introduce a Winter Break in the top two tiers in Britain. Wayne Rooney was absolutely ****ed after the great season he had at Manchester Utd. It has to be introduced, though I doubt it will. As wibbin and Stockporter have said... all the English FA, Premier League, Football League etc care about is how much money is in it for them.
Britain has the best league in the world, but I'm afraid that something has to change if you want your national team to be as succesful as it's capable of.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Jun 27, 2010 21:56:47 GMT 1
I think there could be an argument for a winter break in world cup years for the top flight. Good idea that one - when do you propose they fit the fixtures in then Still I'm sure the clubs could rake in loads more cash with lucrative tours of Asia over those 3 weeks
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on Jun 27, 2010 21:57:34 GMT 1
There is no point in a winter break in the PL, all that will happen is £1mil mini league in somewhere like california, china, or japan.
It's all about the money these days, so a mini break so team can make a lot more, NO THANKS
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Post by blood red shrews on Jun 27, 2010 22:10:16 GMT 1
I think there could be an argument for a winter break in world cup years for the top flight. Good idea that one - when do you propose they fit the fixtures in then Still I'm sure the clubs could rake in loads more cash with lucrative tours of Asia over those 3 weeks The same way they do in La liga and leagues in other countries every year? But as several have stated it would no doubt be exploited by clubs with tours and high profile friendlies.
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Post by monkee on Jun 27, 2010 23:18:44 GMT 1
There is no point in a winter break in the PL, all that will happen is £1mil mini league in somewhere like california, china, or japan. It's all about the money these days, so a mini break so team can make a lot more, NO THANKS thats why i asked if the F.A. or the Premier should take control of how many games players actually play. I didnt really post this thread as an excuse, its just Rooney looks jaded as do a good few of the team. but they play at the highest level in the season and do well, so they can do it. We seem to have a crabby bunch of players who dont look like they want to be there, had they had a decent rest, they may not have been so pugnacious. sometimes players are rushed back before they are really fit, just to compound an injury further, its no good for the player , but the sponsors and telly people etc have less pure intentions at the higher level and know another mealticket is round the corner when they have ****ed up this one.
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on Jun 28, 2010 9:01:59 GMT 1
The PL have asked about reducing the number of clubs that play, and all the clubs say no, because they'll lose money from not playing matches.
Joe Cole had a long break mid season with an injury. Rooney was out for a month again with an injury. Both didn't really play that well, were they both still not fit.
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Post by heavenlyshrew on Jun 28, 2010 9:32:14 GMT 1
I have 3 ideas how to make this alright again. 1.scrap the league cup. 2.Bring back all teams playing on saturdays and maybe he odd wednesday when no CL games are on. 3.Scrap the champions league and just make it knock out football with only the champions of each country getting in. Too much football is being played by players at the top of the game.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Jun 28, 2010 10:50:13 GMT 1
Pretty sure that Serie A has a winter break. They did well didn't they.
I don't think Rooney was suffering from burnout, i just don't think he was properly recovered from his injury. Even the last few weeks of the season for man u he didn't look right, but ferguson rushed him back to play in a champions league match
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Post by Worthingshrew on Jun 28, 2010 12:21:32 GMT 1
a winter break is a complete red herring IMO. For a start it means that you either extend the seaosn later or start the new one earlier - that doesn't help especially when there's a tournament. Also if you have a 3 week break, most clubs would do a tour of the far east etc to get money in. Even if they didn't, the players are still going to be required to be around to trainin and keep fit. I thnk it would actually makes things worse and give players even less time off.
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Post by monkee on Jun 28, 2010 13:31:12 GMT 1
Pretty sure that Serie A has a winter break. They did well didn't they. I don't think Rooney was suffering from burnout, i just don't think he was properly recovered from his injury. Even the last few weeks of the season for man u he didn't look right, but ferguson rushed him back to play in a champions league match a winter break is a complete red herring IMO. For a start it means that you either extend the seaosn later or start the new one earlier - that doesn't help especially when there's a tournament. Also if you have a 3 week break, most clubs would do a tour of the far east etc to get money in. Even if they didn't, the players are still going to be required to be around to trainin and keep fit. I thnk it would actually makes things worse and give players even less time off. thats why i asked if the F.A. or the Premier should take control of how many games players actually play. i dont see splitting the close season into 2 periods to ensure better safety for players as a red herring.
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Post by der kaiser on Jun 28, 2010 13:53:40 GMT 1
Reduce the top flight to 18.
Winter Break with the strict understanding that clubs can't go jetting off for friendlies.
Football League restructured to include a League Two North and South. Less Teams in each division.
Kill the League Cup.
No Replays in the FA cup. Penalties and extra time.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Jun 28, 2010 14:07:12 GMT 1
Sorry as I said, Italy does have a winter break, they failed worse than we did. I don't think that it's necessarily the answer, that's certainly not going to solve the problems of both centre backs running over to the left back's position for example and being hopelessly out of position.
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 28, 2010 14:07:14 GMT 1
Kill the League Cup. No Replays in the FA cup. Penalties and extra time. Don't kill the League Cup, just invite premiership clubs to enter it. No obligation, just an invitation. Insist that at least 6 of the players in each starting line up have played at least half of the last 8 games. Keep the Europa League place for winning it. That way the lower level Premiership teams will still enter, the top clubs won't be able to use it as an extra reserve fixture and someone from the lower leagues will stand a chance of getting into Europe. Agree about the FA cup though
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Post by monkee on Jun 28, 2010 16:58:02 GMT 1
Sorry as I said, Italy does have a winter break, they failed worse than we did. I don't think that it's necessarily the answer, that's certainly not going to solve the problems of both centre backs running over to the left back's position for example and being hopelessly out of position. not saying it is an insurance against faliure or decisions made, there is evidence that we get more injuries in the prem than countries who have a winter break. So we may have had a fit rooney, or an uninjured Ferdinand in central defence. dont understand your point about italy, having a winter break wouldnt automatically mean we would win the world cup, or even do well, but it increases the chances of having our best players there in decent condition Link------> read this Link------> and this there are a lot of knowledgable people who disagree with you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2010 21:41:53 GMT 1
Nah, I think it's a red herring of an idea too.
Compare the England players to the Brazilian or Argentina squad - Messi or Maicon as an example.
All played throughout the domestic season in Europe as well as the likes of Rooney but on top of that their countries played eighteen WC qualifying games. Add in travel to and from South American and you'll see a more hectic schedule than any English player.
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Post by shrewsace on Jun 28, 2010 22:36:26 GMT 1
If Capello was so concerned about burn out, you have to wonder why he persisted with Rooney throughout the meaningless pre-tournament games, when he looked in desperate need of a rest.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Jun 28, 2010 22:40:53 GMT 1
So why is it the England players playing in the Premier are tired.
How many other countries had players from the same Premiership playing for them - did they look tired.
It's all b0110x. Why don't we just admit we that we still ain't good enough 4 years after the last time it happened (& 4 years before that, etc, etc)
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Post by stfcfan87 on Jun 29, 2010 0:30:53 GMT 1
Tevez and Mascherano are two examples of players that have played all season, plus have had large amounts travel for international games this season that aren't exactly looking tired.
i'm not exactly sure how many other countries have faired with regards injured / unavailable players, but i suspect fewer of them went and picked so many with injury doubts in the first place - it's not just rooney that was struggling, but king, ferdinand, lennon and barry all picked up knocks towards the end of the season.
i'm not sure winter breaks are the answer, not picking so many injured players in the squad to begin with is a better idea.
In fact if you listened to radio 5 last night (Monday) between 9.30 pm and 10.30pm Chris Waddle said that he'd gone through the total number of games that the england and germany sides had played over the course of the season and the numbers came out very similar, but we trailed the spanish.
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Post by monkee on Jun 29, 2010 0:51:54 GMT 1
Tevez and Mascherano are two examples of players that have played all season, plus have had large amounts travel for international games this season that aren't exactly looking tired. i'm not exactly sure how many other countries have faired with regards injured / unavailable players, but i suspect fewer of them went and picked so many with injury doubts in the first place - it's not just rooney that was struggling, but king, ferdinand, lennon and barry all picked up knocks towards the end of the season. i'm not sure winter breaks are the answer, not picking so many injured players in the squad to begin with is a better idea. In fact if you listened to radio 5 last night (Monday) between 9.30 pm and 10.30pm Chris Waddle said that he'd gone through the total number of games that the england and germany sides had played over the course of the season and the numbers came out very similar, but we trailed the spanish. i am not sure you are getting the point, it isnt nessesarily about less games, but spacing them in a better way. tbh, i dont rate Waddle as a pundit, he can barely talk. just out of interest, how would you explain the disproportionate number of injuries in the premiership when compared with other countries?
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jun 29, 2010 5:06:01 GMT 1
It's not just the number of games played by Prem teams but the pace at which the game is played, which is break-neck speed compared to teams on the continent. The CL final between Inter and Bayern was played at near walking pace. I don't think we can change our style (and anyway it makes for good viewing) so as far as I can see the only answer is fewer games and perhaps a couple of weeks enforced rest in winter. I definitely agree that the League Cup should be scr@pped (and maybe Championship teams invited to play in the JPT), replays scr@pped in the FA Cup and Prem cut to 18 teams. It is also important that injured players be allowed proper recovery time and that the England manager refrain from picking recently injured players. Capello said he would only pick players who were fit and playing, then went and picked Rooney, Ferdinand, Barry, Lennon, Joe Cole and Ashley Cole in his squad, along with Ledley King who has a chronic knee condition and is injury-prone. And that in a squad with an average age pushing near 30! It's no wonder they looked so knackered!
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Post by clashcityrocker on Jun 29, 2010 6:52:45 GMT 1
When England WON the world cup, that was in the days just after the League Cup had started, some teams played 3 or 4 replays for an FA cup tie, bloody hell, even their boots were three times heavier!
Give these namby pamby prima donnas what they deserve. Extra training, so that they can play together, less travel, and less bloody money.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Jun 29, 2010 8:17:22 GMT 1
So for the advocates of a break some questions.
Do we then reduce further the amount of teams in the Premiership - Championship ? If we don't we will have to either extend the season or cram the 3 weeks worth of missed games into a tighter schedule.
I add to that that in adverse weather many games are called off, this criteria fits no pattern. We could and will find ourselves at some point returning from a 3 week break only to have more games postponed due to weather thus creating a fixture pile up at a later date.
As has been said, would clubs then use the break to bimble off to the far east to placate the Asian hordes whilst filling club coffers.
Blistered onto all of this should top teams still enter the League and FA Cup ? And if they do should they play their strongest 11.
What about excluding the League Cup if a European game is involved for any individual club.
Quite simply a winter break under current constrains would have nil effect. The national interest must also recognize that any gap in the playing schedule will be filled by unscrupulous chairman who see it as an opportunity to make more money.
The FA I fear have neither the will nor the power to construct a clean break, the clubs are all powerful.
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