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Post by appocalypse now on Apr 16, 2005 11:41:35 GMT 1
If you want to meet up Apocolypse Now, at your convieniance i will glady do so and tell you face to face my views on the world, im not shy and to be honest i would enjoy the debate. I will also bring along several serving forces personel who will gladly tell you what they think of people like you who are anti-war yet at the same time live in a free and democratic society because of the endeavers and bravery of people like them. Why exactly am i paranoid? And I could bring many more who could tell you how badly they feel let down by a Government who sent them and their colleagues (some who have been killed or crtically injured) as a sop to Bush and to massage Blair's ego. So please understand that the average service man or woman, when speaking honestly, and whilst fully accepting the duty they signed up to perform, actually detests Blair for his lies and treachery. Why do you think that up to 45,000 service personnel, stationed overseas, are unlikely to be able to vote because of an ERROR by the M.O.D. By the way, you may not have noticed, but this is a message board. It means debate is carried out by multiple posters on given threads, not by individuals in private. I can understand that my questions may be difficult to answer, but if you're struggling, just say so Having said that, next time you're in the West Country, 'cause that's where I live, let me know. I'll happily buy you a pint, and your posse too, if they can make it Why paranoid? Because it's noticable on many, many threads where you post, any disagreement to your point of view is taken as a personal attack and results in a very defensive attitude.
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Post by UK Shrew on Apr 16, 2005 11:46:34 GMT 1
Adolf Hitler....what is your point? My point is that there are 2 sides to every story fella. For 33 of my 36 years I truly believed 'good' i.e. allies was victorious over 'evil' i.e. Nazis............the more I investigate the FACTS behind BOTH sides, the more I have my doubts although I expect the usual torrent of abuse for even admitting this
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Post by UK Shrew on Apr 16, 2005 11:49:29 GMT 1
So please understand that the average service man or woman, when speaking honestly, and whilst fully accepting the duty they signed up to perform, actually detests Blair for his lies and treachery. Why do you think that up to 45,000 service personnel, stationed overseas, are unlikely to be able to vote because of an ERROR by the M.O.D. An excellent point made that had BLiar spluttering on Vine's show yesterday! Canon fodder perhaps?
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Post by kickinpretty on Apr 16, 2005 12:01:28 GMT 1
I dont believe that to be true, i defend my views, just as you defend yours, if i held views that i was not willing to back up with debate then i would be as bad as the majority of polititions in the house of commons that tow the party line even though they hold different views in private.
I have always voiced my opinions even if the majority do not believe the same, i will not fit into the box unless it fits my views or unless i have been persueded by debate that my view is wrong.
If you think being true to ones views is paranoid then thats your view and your entitled to it, i think its called being honest!
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Post by Truth on Apr 16, 2005 12:10:42 GMT 1
I dont believe that to be true, i defend my views, just as you defend yours, if i held views that i was not willing to back up with debate then i would be as bad as the majority of polititions in the house of commons that tow the party line even though they hold different views in private. I have always voiced my opinions even if the majority do not believe the same, i will not fit into the box unless it fits my views or unless i have been persueded by debate that my view is wrong. If you think being true to ones views is paranoid then thats your view and your entitled to it, i think its called being honest! Do you do all your debating under your name or have you ever been tempted to use a guest name?
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Post by kickinpretty on Apr 16, 2005 12:23:47 GMT 1
What like you you mean!
I have posted as a guest before, and so have you, obviously.
You are obviously a moderator otherwise you wouldnt be so god damn sure of yourself, what is your point, even posting as a guest i have maintained my views, and even changed them when i was wrong.
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Post by kickinpretty on Apr 16, 2005 12:42:23 GMT 1
The only person in life you can trust is yourself, everyone else is capable of stabbing you in the back, if you stab yourself in the back then at least you know it was your own fault.
I dont trust anyone, and i mean anyone!
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Post by meoleshrew2 on Apr 16, 2005 12:42:36 GMT 1
What like you you mean! I have posted as a guest before, and so have you, obviously. You are obviously a moderator otherwise you wouldnt be so god damn sure of yourself, what is your point, even posting as a guest i have maintained my views, and even changed them when i was wrong. Kickin your right about the guest bit, but only as part of a joke as for a mod, a woman mod on this board
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Post by meoleshrew2 on Apr 16, 2005 12:45:16 GMT 1
The only person in life you can trust is yourself, everyone else is capable of stabbing you in the back, if you stab yourself in the back then at least you know it was your own fault. I dont trust anyone, and i mean anyone! Not trusting anyone is a shame, or do you mean you know who you can or can't trust. As for being stabbed in the back, I doubt you learn anything in life until you have been
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Post by kickinpretty on Apr 16, 2005 12:49:05 GMT 1
May well be a shame, but that is the reality of life, everyone is out for there own agenda, you cannot trust anyone.
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Post by meoleshrew2 on Apr 16, 2005 13:05:21 GMT 1
May well be a shame, but that is the reality of life, everyone is out for there own agenda, you cannot trust anyone. Do you really believe that? We all know people who are only think of themselves, but I can say without a shadow of doubt That I have friends/family who wouldnt know what having hier own agenda meant.
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 16, 2005 14:12:25 GMT 1
My point is that there are 2 sides to every story fella. For 33 of my 36 years I truly believed 'good' i.e. allies was victorious over 'evil' i.e. Nazis............the more I investigate the FACTS behind BOTH sides, the more I have my doubts although I expect the usual torrent of abuse for even admitting this So are you saying that Hitler wasn't "evil"?
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 16, 2005 14:22:37 GMT 1
The armed forces are not the only pillar to democracy in this or any other country. And nor could it be. I don't know whether Kickinpretty's views about anti-war views are widely shared in the armed forces. And what's more I don't care. The expression of anti-war views is one aspect of democracy. We can't have armed forces saying we're only going to defend the democratic views we agree with.
My views on the Iraq War are well known. I thought it was b******s then, and think it is b******s now.
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Post by appocalypse now on Apr 16, 2005 14:29:37 GMT 1
The armed forces are not the only pillar to democracy in this or any other country. We can't have armed forces saying we're only going to defend the democratic views we agree with. Bl00dy good point
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 16, 2005 14:31:38 GMT 1
You'd have made a deal with Hitler in 1930s wouldn't you. We did make a deal with Hitler in the 1930s. And that deal meant we were fighting for our existence in 1940 with eight gun mono planes not four gun biplanes.
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Post by BlueinSY2 on Apr 16, 2005 16:27:34 GMT 1
Been in the forces 20 years now. I feel it was right to go in to topple the Iraqi regime, however the U.S. funked up because they did not have a plan of action post conflict.
45000 people stationed abroad can go and register ANYTIME to vote,it is not up to the MOD to register personnel, so its just like you and the electoral register you have to put yourself on it.
To be honest all war is wrong, its just to be used as a last resort and lets be honest Saddam has laughed in the face of the UN for 12 years. We had continually appeased him, what where we going to do wait until he had developed a nuclear capability?
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on Apr 16, 2005 16:43:35 GMT 1
We were LIED to about Iraq, 45 min's and all that, but some thing had to be done there.
Now it looks like it Iran, who have oil, but the US say they are trying for nukes. so they want to go in.
North Korea, no oil, trying for nukes, may hae them. The US wants to talk.
We were lied too, and Blair keeps lying to us.
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Post by meoleshrew2 on Apr 16, 2005 17:10:00 GMT 1
We were LIED to about Iraq, 45 min's and all that, but some thing had to be done there. Now it looks like it Iran, who have oil, but the US say they are trying for nukes. so they want to go in. North Korea, no oil, trying for nukes, may hae them. The US wants to talk. We were lied too, and Blair keeps lying to us. Iran, the UN inspectors are not to happy over whats happening there either.
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 16, 2005 17:42:45 GMT 1
Been in the forces 20 years now. I feel it was right to go in to topple the Iraqi regime, however the U.S. funked up because they did not have a plan of action post conflict. 45000 people stationed abroad can go and register ANYTIME to vote,it is not up to the MOD to register personnel, so its just like you and the electoral register you have to put yourself on it. To be honest all war is wrong, its just to be used as a last resort and lets be honest Saddam has laughed in the face of the UN for 12 years. We had continually appeased him, what where we going to do wait until he had developed a nuclear capability? 3 excellent points. The question I've always asked is: Why Iraq? I have no problems with toppling fascists, but there are plenty of other nasties around and Dubya and Blair haven't invaded them yet. Why not? Nothing to do with oil? I'm genuinely glad Saddam's gone, but I just hate the way we were lied to, hate the way that the war that was all about WMD is now being justified on entirely different grounds (if regime change is a valid reason, why was it emphatically stated before the war that wasn't the purpose of the exercise?) and hate the hypocrisy that justifies war in one case, but not another. If it's really about freedom and democracy, why isn't Zimbabwe getting the 'shock and awe' treatment? Surely when you put the lives of service personnel at risk, you need to be very clear why? No comebacks - I'm off for a celebratory curry! We are staying up, I said...
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Post by rob on Apr 16, 2005 18:02:07 GMT 1
North Korea have nuclear capabilities, depending upon the reports they either have a limited supply of nuclear missiles, or are about to immanently aquire them.
Attempting to topple a regieme who have nuclear capabilities, as well as a large army (however illtrained they are) and an ideological hate of the west and America in particular is impractical.
The threat of a nuclear retaliation (which has been threatend) will mean that North Korea wont suffer at the hands of us as Iraq did.
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Post by Guest on Apr 16, 2005 22:49:26 GMT 1
RIP to those brave people, but would have been the same, or worse, under the torys.
It's the best of the worst for me, I can't stand identity cards or university tuition fees, but, unless you are in an area where the lib dem can win - maybe Shrewsbury - then best of the bunch is Labour.
It does seem that Tony Blair is acting a little semi-retired at the moment - but no problem, Gordon can step into the shoes anytime - provided there's a high calibre person who can do the Chancellor job as good as Gordon....
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2005 22:59:45 GMT 1
I don't agree that everyone has their own agenda and can't be trusted. There are several people who I would trust 100%. Unfortunatley there are always people who will make things difficult for others be it by stabbing you in the back i.e. some you know personally or on a state wide level the kind of scum who cheat the benefits system and screw the hard working people out of money - sad thing is the system lets them get away with it, it must cost society a shed load each year As for the election, I'm still not sure who to vote for.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 16, 2005 23:42:21 GMT 1
The Tories supported the war, end of debate
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Post by Guest on Apr 16, 2005 23:54:29 GMT 1
RIP to those brave people, but would have been the same, or worse, under the torys. It's the best of the worst for me, I can't stand identity cards or university tuition fees, but, unless you are in an area where the lib dem can win - maybe Shrewsbury - then best of the bunch is Labour. It does seem that Tony Blair is acting a little semi-retired at the moment - but no problem, Gordon can step into the shoes anytime - provided there's a high calibre person who can do the Chancellor job as good as Gordon.... How do we know how good a job he is doing as chancellor, no money for hospitals, no money for education, but money for a war. (not arguing the rights and wrongs of the war). How do we as the public know there is not an enormous "black hole" in our economy. ?. We have to believe the figures we are given , who is in a position to prove or disprove these figures, one of the world financial institutions was doubting them just last week.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 16, 2005 23:58:18 GMT 1
How do we know how good a job he is doing as chancellor, no money for hospitals, no money for education, but money for a war. (not arguing the rights and wrongs of the war). How do we as the public know there is not an enormous "black hole" in our economy. ?. We have to believe the figures we are given , who is in a position to prove or disprove these figures, one of the world financial institutions was doubting them just last week. We are spending more on hospitals We are spending more on schools We might not be spending enough and we might not be spending it in the right places, but you can't say 'there is no money for' because there evidently is I love the way all the parties argue over the election pledges when no-one really knows what will happen with the economy and no one really knows what all the numbers mean
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Post by pawlo on Apr 17, 2005 5:28:08 GMT 1
How do we know how good a job he is doing as chancellor, no money for hospitals, no money for education,. Now my sceptical friend you are just talking utter bollox
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Post by blue 44 on Apr 17, 2005 8:23:10 GMT 1
The Tories supported the war, end of debate No it certainly makes ir awkward for them TBH and its true the Lib Dems were proved more right on the war but its not the end of the debate because they claim not without some justification that their support was based on The dodgy dossier the 45 minute warning etc and that seems reasonable ie its unlikely Blair would say one thing to the country and another secretly to the Tories isn t it? Any way Iraq wont effect the election except at the edges concerning the trust factor In to days polls it seemsLabour are home and dry with another big majority
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Post by kickinpretty on Apr 17, 2005 8:30:51 GMT 1
Friends or family?
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Post by meoleshrew2 on Apr 17, 2005 10:25:10 GMT 1
How do we know how good a job he is doing as chancellor, no money for hospitals, no money for education, but money for a war. (not arguing the rights and wrongs of the war). How do we as the public know there is not an enormous "black hole" in our economy. ?. We have to believe the figures we are given , who is in a position to prove or disprove these figures, one of the world financial institutions was doubting them just last week. Every budget he has been in charge of his forcasts for growth etc have been damned by the 'experts' yet just before the next budget the very same people say well yes he got it right but only just blah, blah his record on the economy is second to none, and there are improvements in all services, is it perfect? no, but is anything
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Post by MartinB on Apr 17, 2005 10:56:52 GMT 1
I could be wrong, but the last time the tories us to war was the first Iraq war ( the gulf war). On that occassion, they only went half way before letting saddam off the hook and letting him carry on murdering his countries peoples by the hundreds of thousands. Yes you are right Tories did take us to the 1st Gulf War, again though it was to kick out people who had invaded another Country. Did they have the right to take over Iraq then? I don't know.
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