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Post by aghabullogueshrew on Jan 15, 2019 13:30:06 GMT 1
I left the UK over 20 years ago but I am amazed at what is still going on! Firstly, the original referendum was like the last US election, i.e. " I'm going to vote exit, but I'm telling everyone that I'm voting remain as I don't want to come across as racist". So what happens, all the remain voters stay home because the the "polls" say they are going to win! Who voted exit then! Old people who, for someone stupid reason, believe that Britain still has an empire and ain't European! And people who thought all the Eastern Europeans would be kicked out of the UK if they voted exit! Don't blame the workers, blame the management! If you have a vacancy and you know you can get an Eastern European to do it for minimum wage, what would you do! So, what is the result of this mess. The British Empire will not suddenly rise from the ashes and the Eastern Europeans won't be sent packing. What a waste of time and, more importantly, money!
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 15, 2019 13:40:24 GMT 1
I left the UK over 20 years ago but I am amazed at what is still going on! Firstly, the original referendum was like the last US election, i.e. " I'm going to vote exit, but I'm telling everyone that I'm voting remain as I don't want to come across as racist". So what happens, all the remain voters stay home because the the "polls" say they are going to win! Who voted exit then! Old people who, for someone stupid reason, believe that Britain still has an empire and ain't European! And people who thought all the Eastern Europeans would be kicked out of the UK if they voted exit! Don't blame the workers, blame the management! If you have a vacancy and you know you can get an Eastern European to do it for minimum wage, what would you do! So, what is the result of this mess. The British Empire will not suddenly rise from the ashes and the Eastern Europeans won't be sent packing. What a waste of time and, more importantly, money! I find it utterly bizarre that the only people you ever hear going off on one about the "Empire" are those who are going on about others going on about Empire.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 13:50:07 GMT 1
The same reason that this thread was about the referendum result and the fact that you hijacked it with the DUP comment. Think it's very relevant given the fact the Irish issue is a major sticking point and the govt shot Alot of its impartiality when it called an uncessaey general election rather than getting on with the task in hand. Also how democractic is it for a minor regional party to be given a huge say in how we run the nation?
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Post by keithb123 on Jan 15, 2019 14:14:52 GMT 1
I hardly think that 10 available votes is a "huge say". Indeed, the DUP will almost certainly vote against the goverment because of the Irish issue so again I feel it's still irrelevant and can't se them having any impact on the vote. OK the money given to them was obsecene but I still honestly believe it's not going to affect the outcome of this vote except for the government to get an even bigger bloody nose.
The general election was indeed a complete folly but TM saw it as more than that but it backfired big time.
Just on your last sentence - what happened in 2010 with a coalition government? The Tory's fell 20 seats short of a majority and used the Lib-Dems to "prop them up". It's not new
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Post by mattmw on Jan 15, 2019 14:22:56 GMT 1
Out to 20/1 now with most bookies that May will win the vote tonight, having been about 5/1 in the middle of last week
Odds of another referendum by the end of the year are fluctuating a lot too around around 6/4 there won’t be one 5/2 there will be - which has come in from about 4/1 at the turn of the year
Might as well try and make some cash somewhere from the situation!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 14:48:32 GMT 1
The same reason that this thread was about the referendum result and the fact that you hijacked it with the DUP comment. Thread wasn’t hijacked. Have you read the opening post?
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Post by aghabullogueshrew on Jan 15, 2019 15:20:49 GMT 1
On the BBC website, there is an article entitled "eight possible outcomes of the vote". Not one states "we are f@&cked!" Strange!
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jan 15, 2019 15:21:16 GMT 1
it is a mess and whatever happens you will get a lot of unhappy people
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jan 15, 2019 15:23:33 GMT 1
From the start of the process there should have been a cross party negotiating team. <iframe width="18.720000000000027" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 18.720000000000027px; height: 3.280000000000001px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_74168080" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="18.720000000000027" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 18.72px; height: 3.28px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 881px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_95287331" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="18.720000000000027" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 18.72px; height: 3.28px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 104px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_27838683" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="18.720000000000027" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 18.72px; height: 3.28px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 881px; top: 104px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_99535122" scrolling="no"></iframe> yes but unfortunately politicians put there own ego , perks and political dogma before what might help the country
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 15:31:34 GMT 1
From the start of the process there should have been a cross party negotiating team. <iframe width="18.720000000000027" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 18.720000000000027px; height: 3.280000000000001px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_74168080" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="18.720000000000027" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 18.72px; height: 3.28px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 881px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_95287331" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="18.720000000000027" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 18.72px; height: 3.28px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 104px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_27838683" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="18.720000000000027" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 18.72px; height: 3.28px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 881px; top: 104px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_99535122" scrolling="no"></iframe> yes but unfortunately politicians put there own ego , perks and political dogma before what might help the country Amen! Would certainly class the current mess as an national emergency.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Jan 15, 2019 15:34:54 GMT 1
The main argument from remainers is we didn't know what we voted for. Now that I've read the 599 page withdrawal agreement, I'm more informed.
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Post by keithb123 on Jan 15, 2019 15:43:53 GMT 1
The same reason that this thread was about the referendum result and the fact that you hijacked it with the DUP comment. Thread wasn’t hijacked. Have you read the opening post? This one?
15/01/2019 The day democracy died in the UK We had all the preamble before the Brexit Referendum in 2016. The people voted, fairly and squarely... The populus demanded the Referendum. Online petitions, MP's raising the question etc. The Tories pledged the Referendum in their Manifesto. All routes were taken for the franchise... And now? Well well well? As the deadline for Brexit approaches..We've got chaos. We've got comrade Corbyn finding a screwdiver which could release a trapdoor that could find him Prime .. (lump in throat)...(choked..tears of disbelief) Minister of the UK? God help us. Corbyn. Marxist McDonnell. Dianne Abbott/ Somehow. They're about to run the Nation. All 'cos objections ets were raised to the result of a democratic Referendum. How the f*** did this happen? I voted to stay in Europe. The majority voted to leave. I respect that vote. I didn't vote in the EU Referendum for Corbyn. Dianne Abbott etc to come to power? Read more: blueandamber.proboards.com/thread/98594/15-2019-day-democracy-died?page=2#ixzz5cgfo1DgM
So where does it mention the DUP? It mentions Labour but can't see where the DUP came into this.. I guess it's OK for people to change the scope of this but when challenged it's stated that I didnt read the original post.. Strange that.
I'm not really bothered about your obvious left wing bias to be honest.
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Post by hello on Jan 15, 2019 16:02:07 GMT 1
When we had the referendum, the question was:
'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?'
There was no mention of a deal and no mention of a second referendum. So we had the choice of whether we were to leave or remain. Leave won. I voted leave on the understanding that what I was voting for was in effect what is 'no deal', along with I'd imagine, the majority of the electorate that voted leave. So why hasn't that happened?
MP's have a duty to represent their constituents. If a constituency voted to leave, that is the way our MP's should vote. I find it astounding that so many are going against their constituent's wishes, and I really hope that this will be reflected when constituents vote at the next General Election.
I didn't vote for a half in/half out deal, I voted to Leave. Leave, then we are free to negotiate on our terms.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 16:05:26 GMT 1
The main argument from remainers is we didn't know what we voted for. Now that I've read the 599 page withdrawal agreement, I'm more informed. I hadn't realised that Grimms fairy tales stretched to that length.
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Post by shrewder on Jan 15, 2019 17:21:37 GMT 1
The main argument from remainers is we didn't know what we voted for. Now that I've read the 599 page withdrawal agreement, I'm more informed. Bit late now to be informed,when the horse has already bolted. 👹
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Post by venceremos on Jan 15, 2019 17:52:13 GMT 1
Thread wasn’t hijacked. Have you read the opening post?
I'm not really bothered about your obvious left wing bias to be honest.
Just a hunch, but I suspect he's not really bothered about your obvious right wing bias either, so …….
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Post by vixenshrew on Jan 15, 2019 18:20:04 GMT 1
Well it is Panto season, seems to have been so for 2 1/2 years now. I voted to leave and whether that was the ‘right vote’ or not those who were with me were in the majority. I haven’t bothered voting in the last couple of elections as quite frankly I wouldn’t even pee on any of them from any party if they were on fire so wasn’t going to waste 5 mins of my life to vote for them either. If they don’t deliver what was asked for by the electorate then I will be proved right and I’m sure that I won’t be the only one who can’t be arsed to vote at a general election again. Yep that's me too. I voted to leave and if we don't then they can stuff their elections up their bif fat ar**s
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Post by venceremos on Jan 15, 2019 18:25:45 GMT 1
When we had the referendum, the question was: 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' There was no mention of a deal and no mention of a second referendum. So we had the choice of whether we were to leave or remain. Leave won. I voted leave on the understanding that what I was voting for was in effect what is 'no deal', along with I'd imagine, the majority of the electorate that voted leave. So why hasn't that happened? MP's have a duty to represent their constituents. If a constituency voted to leave, that is the way our MP's should vote. I find it astounding that so many are going against their constituent's wishes, and I really hope that this will be reflected when constituents vote at the next General Election. I didn't vote for a half in/half out deal, I voted to Leave. Leave, then we are free to negotiate on our terms. Interesting post. I accept what you say you voted for. What I'd question is on what basis you "understood" that leave meant leaving without a deal? I don't recall there being a unified leave-means-leave-without-a-deal campaign, such that every leave voter would have known they were voting for that. You might have wanted it but that doesn't mean it was being offered to you. Farage was talking about the Norway and Switzerland arrangements, Hannan was talking about staying in the single market, Paterson said we'd be mad to leave the single market - all prominent brexiteers. I note too that you "imagine" the majority of leave voters wanted the same thing as you. Again, what basis do you have for imagining that? Why do you assume that the majority agree with you? You might hope they do but you've no reason to believe it. You also misunderstand the role of the MP. It's not their duty to act as delegates and vote the way their constituents voted 2.5 years ago. Some of those voters will now have changed their minds anyway. It's their duty to act as representatives and do what they believe is in the best interests of their constituency and country. Their constituency had the opportunity to elect whoever they preferred as their MP a year after the referendum, so every MP has a mandate from their constituency for the term of this parliament and it would be anti-democratic to say otherwise. In any case, how would you expect an MP to vote tonight? No dealers and remainers both oppose May's deal but most of May's supporters and all remainers firmly oppose no deal. If you really believe the leave vote was for a no deal exit then presumably you'd be confident enough to expect that option to win a second referendum.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 18:37:46 GMT 1
Thread wasn’t hijacked. Have you read the opening post? This one?
15/01/2019 The day democracy died in the UK We had all the preamble before the Brexit Referendum in 2016. The people voted, fairly and squarely... The populus demanded the Referendum. Online petitions, MP's raising the question etc. The Tories pledged the Referendum in their Manifesto. All routes were taken for the franchise... And now? Well well well? As the deadline for Brexit approaches..We've got chaos. We've got comrade Corbyn finding a screwdiver which could release a trapdoor that could find him Prime .. (lump in throat)...(choked..tears of disbelief) Minister of the UK? God help us. Corbyn. Marxist McDonnell. Dianne Abbott/ Somehow. They're about to run the Nation. All 'cos objections ets were raised to the result of a democratic Referendum. How the f*** did this happen? I voted to stay in Europe. The majority voted to leave. I respect that vote. I didn't vote in the EU Referendum for Corbyn. Dianne Abbott etc to come to power? Read more: blueandamber.proboards.com/thread/98594/15-2019-day-democracy-died?page=2#ixzz5cgfo1DgM
So where does it mention the DUP? It mentions Labour but can't see where the DUP came into this.. I guess it's OK for people to change the scope of this but when challenged it's stated that I didnt read the original post.. Strange that.
I'm not really bothered about your obvious left wing bias to be honest.
And I’m not bothered about your obvious far right bias but here we are. The OP states he didn’t vote for Corbyn Abbott etc. I believe it’s perfectly right to point out in response that most of us didn’t vote for a government controlled by the DUP but that may have gone over your head.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 15, 2019 18:57:54 GMT 1
Interesting how for a lot of people on the Leave side democracy just means "what I want to happen".
The UK has been a representative democracy for centuries. That means you elect a representative who then acts on your behalf in Westminster. The MPs voting today are taking part in that system.
The referendum itself was outside of our constitutional norms in fact. Argue all you like about the rights and wrongs of it but don't claim " democracy has died". This is literally the system that you supposedly want to restore to primacy in action.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 19:34:33 GMT 1
Interesting how for a lot of people on the Leave side democracy just means "what I want to happen". The UK has been a representative democracy for centuries. That means you elect a representative who then acts on your behalf in Westminster. The MPs voting today are taking part in that system. The referendum itself was outside of our constitutional norms in fact. Argue all you like about the rights and wrongs of it but don't claim " democracy has died". This is literally the system that you supposedly want to restore to primacy in action. Indeed the irony is almost breathtaking isn’t it. “We want decisions affecting our country taken by our parliament not Brussels” And yet when our parliament does dare make its own decisions the leavers squeal like little piglets.
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Post by salop27 on Jan 15, 2019 19:39:32 GMT 1
I wondered why the brexit thread had gone quiet!!
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Post by mattmw on Jan 15, 2019 19:45:24 GMT 1
Interesting how for a lot of people on the Leave side democracy just means "what I want to happen". The UK has been a representative democracy for centuries. That means you elect a representative who then acts on your behalf in Westminster. The MPs voting today are taking part in that system. The referendum itself was outside of our constitutional norms in fact. Argue all you like about the rights and wrongs of it but don't claim " democracy has died". This is literally the system that you supposedly want to restore to primacy in action. Exactly right, we had a long Supreme Court ruling which concluded the decision on how and in what form brexit takes place, and indeed if it does at all, rests with Parliament. The referendum result in legal terms is now immaterial as all the power sits with Parliament to decide how to progress Going to be a long road but ultimately Parliament we’ll get there in the end and what ever decision they make will have been done democratically - all be it in the slightly arcane way we do democracy in the UK
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 15, 2019 19:47:46 GMT 1
Interesting how for a lot of people on the Leave side democracy just means "what I want to happen". The UK has been a representative democracy for centuries. That means you elect a representative who then acts on your behalf in Westminster. The MPs voting today are taking part in that system. The referendum itself was outside of our constitutional norms in fact. Argue all you like about the rights and wrongs of it but don't claim " democracy has died". This is literally the system that you supposedly want to restore to primacy in action. Indeed the irony is almost breathtaking isn’t it. “We want decisions affecting our country taken by our parliament not Brussels” And yet when our parliament does dare make its own decisions the leavers squeal like little piglets. Exactly. The snow flakes are all perfectly happy with our parliamentary democracy when it suits them; when first past the post hands control to a minority, when representative democracy delivered a referendum that was only wanted by a handful of cranks in the first place (whatever the revisionists claim), when that referendum was so poorly crafted that it handed them victory despite not achieving an absolute majority. In fact, any one who talked about parliamentary reform for most of the back end of the 20th and early 21st centuries was deemed a "loony lefty". A token effort at electoral reform was voted down (AV) in a flood of propaganda (anyone remember those nauseating "he needs a bullet proof vest" ads? Almost like a precursor to brexit). The brexit campaign was full of rhetoric about the sovereignty of our parliamentary system. There was a strong correlation between brexiters and support for our traditions; Commonwealth, the Royal family etc. Yet the minute that system delivers an outcome you don't like it's toys out of the pram time; scrap the house of lords, bypass the commons and let the country be directly ruled by a referendum because "it's the will if the people". I would suggest a lack of understanding of how parliament works is exactly the problem here. Why vote brexit then elect a party which during the referendum itself openly opposed brexit to deliver it? Makes no sense. UKIP stood candidates in most if not all constituencies yet "the people" entrusted the decision making process to a group of MPs whose positions on brexit are a matter of record. If we don't end up with brexit I would suggest it's an outcome entirely of "The people's" making. You've had numerous chances to reform this system but ignored them; don't complain when that apathy and complacency comes back to bite you in the arse.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 15, 2019 19:49:53 GMT 1
Interesting how for a lot of people on the Leave side democracy just means "what I want to happen". Eh? I think its more as case of what was said was to happen. And that was the result of the referendum was to be honored and implemented. That's all they are after isn't it?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 15, 2019 19:53:47 GMT 1
Indeed the irony is almost breathtaking isn’t it. “We want decisions affecting our country taken by our parliament not Brussels” And yet when our parliament does dare make its own decisions the leavers squeal like little piglets. Exactly. The snow flakes are all perfectly happy with our parliamentary democracy when it suits them; when first past the post hands control to a minority, when representative democracy delivered a referendum that was only wanted by a handful of cranks in the first place (whatever the revisionists claim), when that referendum was so poorly crafted that it handed them victory despite not achieving an absolute majority. In fact, any one who talked about parliamentary reform for most of the back end of the 20th and early 21st centuries was deemed a "loony lefty". A token effort at electoral reform was voted down (AV) in a flood of propaganda (anyone remember those nauseating "he needs a bullet proof vest" ads? Almost like a precursor to brexit). The brexit campaign was full of rhetoric about the sovereignty of our parliamentary system. There was a strong correlation between brexiters and support for our traditions; Commonwealth, the Royal family etc. Yet the minute that system delivers an outcome you don't like it's toys out of the pram time; scr@p the house of lords, bypass the commons and let the country be directly ruled by a referendum because "it's the will if the people". I would suggest a lack of understanding of how parliament works is exactly the problem here. Why vote brexit then elect a party which during the referendum itself openly opposed brexit to deliver it? Makes no sense. UKIP stood candidates in most if not all constituencies yet "the people" entrusted the decision making process to a group of MPs whose positions on brexit are a matter of record. If we don't end up with brexit I would suggest it's an outcome entirely of "The people's" making. You've had numerous chances to reform this system but ignored them; don't complain when that apathy and complacency comes back to bite you in the arse. Really don't know where to start with that...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 20:01:03 GMT 1
Exactly. The snow flakes are all perfectly happy with our parliamentary democracy when it suits them; when first past the post hands control to a minority, when representative democracy delivered a referendum that was only wanted by a handful of cranks in the first place (whatever the revisionists claim), when that referendum was so poorly crafted that it handed them victory despite not achieving an absolute majority. In fact, any one who talked about parliamentary reform for most of the back end of the 20th and early 21st centuries was deemed a "loony lefty". A token effort at electoral reform was voted down (AV) in a flood of propaganda (anyone remember those nauseating "he needs a bullet proof vest" ads? Almost like a precursor to brexit). The brexit campaign was full of rhetoric about the sovereignty of our parliamentary system. There was a strong correlation between brexiters and support for our traditions; Commonwealth, the Royal family etc. Yet the minute that system delivers an outcome you don't like it's toys out of the pram time; scr@p the house of lords, bypass the commons and let the country be directly ruled by a referendum because "it's the will if the people". I would suggest a lack of understanding of how parliament works is exactly the problem here. Why vote brexit then elect a party which during the referendum itself openly opposed brexit to deliver it? Makes no sense. UKIP stood candidates in most if not all constituencies yet "the people" entrusted the decision making process to a group of MPs whose positions on brexit are a matter of record. If we don't end up with brexit I would suggest it's an outcome entirely of "The people's" making. You've had numerous chances to reform this system but ignored them; don't complain when that apathy and complacency comes back to bite you in the arse. Really don't know where to start with that... Oh please give it a go cos you know how much we all cherish your insight!
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Post by theNOTORIOUSfbs on Jan 15, 2019 20:22:23 GMT 1
Well well well?
What a magnificent closing speech by the Prime Minister?. She's really shown such character and resilience.
It's widely expected she's going to have a heavy defeat this evening. It'll be the electorate left wondering though if their Referendum vote has been ignored by MP's? A loss of faith in democracy, the political process etc. Those MP's voting for self-interest, above the interest of the Nation! We'll see their reaction, rhetoric etc after the vote eh?
Come on down Comrade Corbyn!!
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 15, 2019 20:25:45 GMT 1
Really don't know where to start with that... Oh please give it a go cos you know how much we all cherish your insight! Yeah, sure you do. Nah, yous carry on. It'll take an age and no doubt I'll need something to cheer me up later on... Handful of cranks, all 17 million of 'em? Absolute majority? And what the referendum has to do with electoral reform and those that voted to leave I have absolutely no idea.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 15, 2019 20:39:11 GMT 1
I have absolutely no idea. Sums you up, pal.
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