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Post by neilsalop on Jun 16, 2019 15:53:53 GMT 1
Would that be the same Tory party that has been slated by the United Nations for their sanctions regime? Asking for the 130,000 people that have died due austerity measures, including many who have died within weeks of being found 'fit for work'. Would that be the same Tory party that is pushing for another bloody war in the Middle East? Asking for all those that have been killed and maimed in Iraq and Afghanistan and those that will be the ones risking their lives and limbs in Iran. Would that be the same Tory party that is continuing to sell arms to the genocidal Saudi regime? Asking for the people of Yemen. Would that be the same Tory party that is sending people from the Windrush generation back to countries they haven't been to in 60+ years? Asking for all of the European and Commonwealth people who are potentially at risk. Do you really want me to continue? 130,000 dead due to austerity!? Jesus wept the hyperbole of the left knows no bounds *awaits some left wing article as “proof”* Which party led us in to an illegal war? That’ll be the same Saudi who when it’s Prince visited the UK, none of you lot even batted an eye lid. When it’s our closest ally over here, you’re all crying Which party leaders voted against the Iraq war? Certainly none of the contenders for Tory leader. There were plenty of protests against the Saudi state visit and the Chinese one too. Perhaps not as big as the Trump ones, but there nonetheless. With friends like Saudi Arabia we don't really need to be making enemies or alienating the friends we do have in Europe. I really can't be bothered to show you any reports about how austerity is costing lives, because you'd probably think they all deserve to die anyway, but just remember, anyone is only one catastrophic event from being permanently disabled or sick. I really hope that you would have a bit more empathy if it were to happen to someone you know. I understand that as a Tory you may need to look that word up.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 16, 2019 16:14:23 GMT 1
Would that be the same Tory party that has been slated by the United Nations for their sanctions regime? Asking for the 130,000 people that have died due austerity measures, including many who have died within weeks of being found 'fit for work'. Would that be the same Tory party that is pushing for another bloody war in the Middle East? Asking for all those that have been killed and maimed in Iraq and Afghanistan and those that will be the ones risking their lives and limbs in Iran. Would that be the same Tory party that is continuing to sell arms to the genocidal Saudi regime? Asking for the people of Yemen. Would that be the same Tory party that is sending people from the Windrush generation back to countries they haven't been to in 60+ years? Asking for all of the European and Commonwealth people who are potentially at risk. Do you really want me to continue? 130,000 dead due to austerity!? Jesus wept the hyperbole of the left knows no bounds *awaits some left wing article as “proof”* Which party led us in to an illegal war? That’ll be the same Saudi who when it’s Prince visited the UK, none of you lot even batted an eye lid. When it’s our closest ally over here, you’re all crying Interesting that you use the term “hyperbole”. So you’re not disagreeing with the principle of the claim, just disputing the numbers. Check fullfact.org (not a left wing group), for its summary of the academic research on this topic. There’s significant doubt about numbers but, leaving that to one side, strong circumstantial causal evidence. It shouldn’t be about numbers. Unless you’re telling us that austerity policies are not responsible for a single death (suitably evidenced), only the nasty party and its blindest supporters would be so blithely dismissive of other people’s real concerns.
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Post by shrewsace on Jun 16, 2019 16:44:05 GMT 1
Would that be the same Tory party that has been slated by the United Nations for their sanctions regime? Asking for the 130,000 people that have died due austerity measures, including many who have died within weeks of being found 'fit for work'. Would that be the same Tory party that is pushing for another bloody war in the Middle East? Asking for all those that have been killed and maimed in Iraq and Afghanistan and those that will be the ones risking their lives and limbs in Iran. Would that be the same Tory party that is continuing to sell arms to the genocidal Saudi regime? Asking for the people of Yemen. Would that be the same Tory party that is sending people from the Windrush generation back to countries they haven't been to in 60+ years? Asking for all of the European and Commonwealth people who are potentially at risk. Do you really want me to continue? 130,000 dead due to austerity!? Jesus wept the hyperbole of the left knows no bounds *awaits some left wing article as “proof”* Which party led us in to an illegal war? That’ll be the same Saudi who when it’s Prince visited the UK, none of you lot even batted an eye lid. When it’s our closest ally over here, you’re all crying It was in a report from academics at University College London published in the British Medical Journal. But stick your fingers in your ears and denounce it as the work of crazed lefties if it makes you feel better... From the report: "This study demonstrates that recent constraints in PEH (public expenditure on health care) and PES (public expenditure on social care) spending in England were associated with nearly 45 000 higher than expected numbers of deaths between 2012 and 2014. If these trends continue, even when considering the increased planned funding as of 2016, we estimate approximately 150 000 additional deaths may arise between 2015 and 2020. Combining these projected excess deaths and the observed deaths prior to 2015 translates to around 120 000 excess deaths from 2010 to 2017. Contemporaneous reductions in life expectancy and excesses in measures of preventable death both validated our mortality findings. The excess deaths observed in our study corroborate recent evidence highlighting the reversal of declining mortality trends observed in England and Wales in the past decade. Time trend analyses were conducted to compare the actual mortality rates in 2011–2014 with the counterfactual rates expected based on trends before spending constraints. Fixed-effects regression analyses were conducted using annual data on PES and PEH with mortality as the outcome, with further adjustments for macroeconomic factors and resources." Presumably the UN on the'tragic consequences' of the 'ideological cuts' inflicted on the UK in the wake of the banking crisis are also to be conveniently dismissed - as they already have been by Philip Hammond. As for Iraq, only two Tories voted against the invasion, while 84 Labour MPs did - including the current leader of the opposition, The Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn. Boris Johnson - the likely next Tory leader - consistently voted for military intervention in Iraq. Ironically, Corbyn is now under-fire from the Blairites and the Tories for counselling caution against another rush to war.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 17:30:50 GMT 1
It was in a report from academics at University College London published in the British Medical Journal. br] It’s no good you coming on here quoting that bunch of commies!!🙄
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 18:17:15 GMT 1
It was in a report from academics at University College London published in the British Medical Journal. br] It’s no good you coming on here quoting that bunch of commies!!🙄 I was in the Euston area just yesterday and saw them performing a rousing rendition of the red flag, stethoscopes in ears.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 16, 2019 20:15:04 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 20:54:46 GMT 1
As an advocate of leave you are not supposed to rely on experts. Be very careful.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 21:05:50 GMT 1
Well, to re-ask the question. Which laws? So, anyway, you admit that we can make laws, so sovereignty is all good then👍 The UK parliament is sovereign in the sense that the European Communities Act can be repealed but whilst in the EU some sovereignty is pooled. EU law is supreme so the UK parliament will not legislate where to do so would contradict EU law. This quote from Paul Craig (professor of law at Oxford University) sums the position up nicely: "Membership of the EU brings benefits and burdens. If a Member State could derogate from EU law in an area where the EU undoubtedly had competence, simply because the Member State disliked the outcome, this would entail inequality vis-a vis the other Member States, the denial of a level playing field, and the collapse of the EU. EU membership thus entails a loss of sovereignty viewed in terms of the capacity for autonomous state action. But if a Member State does not wish to accept the burdens of membership it should not be able to take the benefits". It is generally accepted that membership of the EU impacts upon the sovereignty of the member states. Not really sure why you continue to argue this isn't the case? The proper question is: is the impact on sovereignty 'worth it' for the benefits membership brings? Here's what you said. The bigger issue is laws that cannot be made as a result of EU membership. Read more: blueandamber.proboards.com/thread/98361/brexit-agreement?page=88#ixzz5r2jjNlrqWhat Craig said is spot on. You can't be in something, and disregard the decisions made by an elected body. That's undemocratic after all. He also said this. ukconstitutionallaw.org/2018/02/26/paul-craig-european-union-withdrawal-bill-legal-status-of-eu-retained-law/
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 21:26:55 GMT 1
10,000 or 120,000 deaths, the number is irrelevant.
What is relevant, is that people are dying due to policies implemented by the current government. We are supposed to be a liberal democracy, with a social contract fought for by my grandparents.
I mention the latter, because the 'right' like to lay claim to being the sole guardians of 'patriotism'.
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Post by Drew on Jun 16, 2019 21:29:55 GMT 1
The UK parliament is sovereign in the sense that the European Communities Act can be repealed but whilst in the EU some sovereignty is pooled. EU law is supreme so the UK parliament will not legislate where to do so would contradict EU law. This quote from Paul Craig (professor of law at Oxford University) sums the position up nicely: "Membership of the EU brings benefits and burdens. If a Member State could derogate from EU law in an area where the EU undoubtedly had competence, simply because the Member State disliked the outcome, this would entail inequality vis-a vis the other Member States, the denial of a level playing field, and the collapse of the EU. EU membership thus entails a loss of sovereignty viewed in terms of the capacity for autonomous state action. But if a Member State does not wish to accept the burdens of membership it should not be able to take the benefits". It is generally accepted that membership of the EU impacts upon the sovereignty of the member states. Not really sure why you continue to argue this isn't the case? The proper question is: is the impact on sovereignty 'worth it' for the benefits membership brings? Here's what you said. The bigger issue is laws that cannot be made as a result of EU membership. Read more: blueandamber.proboards.com/thread/98361/brexit-agreement?page=88#ixzz5r2jjNlrqWhat Craig said is spot on. You can't be in something, and disregard the decisions made by an elected body. That's undemocratic after all. He also said this. ukconstitutionallaw.org/2018/02/26/paul-craig-european-union-withdrawal-bill-legal-status-of-eu-retained-law/Yes there are laws that cannot be made as a result of EU membership. Which part of this statement are you disputing?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 21:36:48 GMT 1
Yes there are laws that cannot be made as a result of EU membership. Which part of this statement are you disputing? I have given examples of laws the UK has made despite of membership of the EU. I can give more. Now give me, and others, examples of laws that cannot be made.
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Post by Drew on Jun 16, 2019 21:44:00 GMT 1
Yes there are laws that cannot be made as a result of EU membership. Which part of this statement are you disputing? I have given examples of laws the UK has made despite of membership of the EU. I can give more. Now give me, and others, examples of laws that cannot be made. How many times do this need explaining? EU law is supreme to the laws of member states. The UK parliament will not legislate contrary to EU law. There is an example about 3 pages back concerning VAT.
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 16, 2019 21:46:31 GMT 1
So after 7 years of death inducing austerity, still 43% voted for the Nasty Party in 2017. We must be a nation half full of total tossers
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 16, 2019 21:51:35 GMT 1
So after 7 years of death inducing austerity, still 43% voted for the Nasty Party in 2017. We must be a nation half full of total tossers You can't go saying the Nasty Party anymore, many of us can't be sure who you mean. Rather apt for both sides of the house these days.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 22:03:59 GMT 1
I have given examples of laws the UK has made despite of membership of the EU. I can give more. Now give me, and others, examples of laws that cannot be made. How many times do this need explaining? EU law is supreme to the laws of member states. The UK parliament will not legislate contrary to EU law. There is an example about 3 pages back concerning VAT. Which is different to what you said. The bigger issue is laws that cannot be made as a result of EU membership. Read more: blueandamber.proboards.com/thread/98361/brexit-agreement?page=88#ixzz5r2xDWGYBAnd here's the directive on the common system of VAT. Or in other words the standardisation of VAT enabling smooth trade within the trading block. eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32006L0112&from=ENThis part is interesting "The common system of VAT should, e ven if rates and exemptions are not fully harmonised, result in neutrality in competition, such that within the territory of each Member State similar goods and services bear the same tax burden, whatever the length of the production and distribution chain. "
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Drew
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Post by Drew on Jun 16, 2019 22:10:27 GMT 1
How many times do this need explaining? EU law is supreme to the laws of member states. The UK parliament will not legislate contrary to EU law. There is an example about 3 pages back concerning VAT. Which is different to what you said. The bigger issue is laws that cannot be made as a result of EU membership. Read more: blueandamber.proboards.com/thread/98361/brexit-agreement?page=88#ixzz5r2xDWGYBAnd here's the directive on the common system of VAT. Or in other words the standardisation of VAT enabling smooth trade within the trading block. eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32006L0112&from=ENThis part is interesting "The common system of VAT should, e ven if rates and exemptions are not fully harmonised, result in neutrality in competition, such that within the territory of each Member State similar goods and services bear the same tax burden, whatever the length of the production and distribution chain. " Can we remove VAT on household gas and electricity bills whilst in the EU? Y/N?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 22:13:07 GMT 1
Can we remove VAT on household gas and electricity bills whilst in the EU? Y/N? No, not as long as EON supply us. But, as part of the EU, the UK had a say on that didn't it? Any idea on how our MEP's voted?
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 16, 2019 23:19:38 GMT 1
Can we remove VAT on household gas and electricity bills whilst in the EU? Y/N? Will we remove VAT on household gas and electricity bills when out of the EU? Y/N?
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Drew
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Post by Drew on Jun 17, 2019 7:03:34 GMT 1
Can we remove VAT on household gas and electricity bills whilst in the EU? Y/N? Will we remove VAT on household gas and electricity bills when out of the EU? Y/N? No idea. I can't predict the future. But we will have the choice to if we want to. Currently we have no choice.
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Drew
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Post by Drew on Jun 17, 2019 7:05:04 GMT 1
Can we remove VAT on household gas and electricity bills whilst in the EU? Y/N? No, not as long as EON supply us. But, as part of the EU, the UK had a say on that didn't it? Any idea on how our MEP's voted? We have 'a' say along with other member states. I'd rather we just have 'the' say on our own.
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 17, 2019 7:24:57 GMT 1
Can we remove VAT on household gas and electricity bills whilst in the EU? Y/N? No, not as long as EON supply us. But, as part of the EU, the UK had a say on that didn't it? Any idea on how our MEP's voted? Those MEP’s where about 30% of the UK electorate voted, for about 1/10th of all MEP’s in Brussels. Sounds very democratic Considering you won’t accept a 52% vote on a 70% turnout, I should be surprised you accept that
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 8:29:07 GMT 1
No, not as long as EON supply us. But, as part of the EU, the UK had a say on that didn't it? Any idea on how our MEP's voted? Those MEP’s where about 30% of the UK electorate voted, for about 1/10th of all MEP’s in Brussels. Sounds very democratic Considering you won’t accept a 52% vote on a 70% turnout, I should be surprised you accept that Strange that you can twist the EU MEP vote to suit your purpose. I could quite easily say in response that only 34% of the electorate vote to leave in 2016.
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 17, 2019 12:05:20 GMT 1
Those MEP’s where about 30% of the UK electorate voted, for about 1/10th of all MEP’s in Brussels. Sounds very democratic Considering you won’t accept a 52% vote on a 70% turnout, I should be surprised you accept that Strange that you can twist the EU MEP vote to suit your purpose. I could quite easily say in response that only 34% of the electorate vote to leave in 2016. UK has roughly 70/700 MEP’s, so 10% 35% turnout x 10% of MEP’s equals 3.5%. When you add to the fact every country has a veto over something we may support, it seems even less attractive to be in this awful Union. I know what is undemocratic in this debate, and it’s certainly not the 52% Leave 2016 referendum (or 34% to suit the agenda)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 12:44:23 GMT 1
Will we remove VAT on household gas and electricity bills when out of the EU? Y/N? No idea. I can't predict the future. . Will Britain be better off outside the eu?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 15:13:49 GMT 1
Strange that you can twist the EU MEP vote to suit your purpose. I could quite easily say in response that only 34% of the electorate vote to leave in 2016. UK has roughly 70/700 MEP’s, so 10% 35% turnout x 10% of MEP’s equals 3.5%. When you add to the fact every country has a veto over something we may support, it seems even less attractive to be in this awful Union. I know what is undemocratic in this debate, and it’s certainly not the 52% Leave 2016 referendum (or 34% to suit the agenda) Ergo everything we don't like we have a veto over. Just as well that the whole thing, by and large, is run by consent (with the avowed neutrality of the Commission). This is a salient lesson which we could learn from, instead of the confrontational politics in the UK and that includes the ludicrous referendum which was designed to save the Tory party and look where that got them !!!
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 17, 2019 17:16:11 GMT 1
No idea. I can't predict the future. . Will Britain be better off outside the eu? Would Britain be better off inside? Who knows without a crystal ball Just because it’s the status quo, doesn’t mean it’s the best option
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 17:25:53 GMT 1
Will Britain be better off outside the eu? Would Britain be better off inside? Who knows without a crystal ball Just because it’s the status quo, doesn’t mean it’s the best option No of course not, but it is possible to predict fairly reliably by extrapolating from where we are now. But that’s not the point here is it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 17:47:21 GMT 1
Christ on a bike, put a headline that suggests Jeremy Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser and it’s gospel, but dare to suggest that their beloved tories are responsible for the deaths of thousands due to their policy of austerity and we have research worthy of a Cambridge degree. Would it be ok if it was 10?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 18:47:41 GMT 1
No, not as long as EON supply us. But, as part of the EU, the UK had a say on that didn't it? Any idea on how our MEP's voted? Those MEP’s where about 30% of the UK electorate voted, for about 1/10th of all MEP’s in Brussels. Sounds very democratic Considering you won’t accept a 52% vote on a 70% turnout, I should be surprised you accept that Where have I actually said I don't accept the result? What I am saying is the electorate should have a say on how we leave, which is perfectly reasonable seeing the total clusterf**k we have now. Also, it's hardly 70/30, 60/40, and a lot of people's interests need to be considered. And, it's irrelevant whether it's 30% turnout, or 70% turnout for EU elections. Our MEP's are there to represent the UK's interests in the EU Parliament. Funnily enough, Farage is absent the most.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 18:49:17 GMT 1
No, not as long as EON supply us. But, as part of the EU, the UK had a say on that didn't it? Any idea on how our MEP's voted? We have 'a' say along with other member states. I'd rather we just have 'the' say on our own. And that is fair enough. What I have objected to is your generalisation about law making and sovereignty.
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