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Post by darkshrew on May 10, 2019 7:20:07 GMT 1
I watched Question Time last night for the first time in ages - what an embarrassment the whole thing was.
Farrage just talks louder with empty soundbites and came across as a playground bully, Anna Soubry was trying to play a pantomime villain, Rudd was just lost trying to defend a compromise that nobody wants, and the labour guy was trying to put forward the need to have an option of remaining and leaving where one does not exist - the ancient businessman on the panel added nothing at all.
The panel, the audience and the nation are divided. The leavers are desperate to cling on to the result of the referendum because they know that it would not survive a second; the remainers are desperate to have a second vote to put the madness behind us. What a mess.
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Post by neilsalop on May 10, 2019 8:48:38 GMT 1
When Theresa May came out and said no deal is better than a bad deal she made a rod for her own back and for everyone elses to boot. She gave hope to the Extreme Right Group of Rees Mogg, etc, but at the time alienated the slightly less extreme, but equally self-serving remainers like Anna Soubry, splitting the Tory party into even more bitter factions than had existed prior to the referendum.
Labour have fewer outright leavers, but when you have Kate Hoey sharing platforms with Farage and Tommy Two Shakes you have to wonder how left Lexit really is. Unfortunately the leadership have allowed the Tories, UKIP, TIG/Change and the EU itself to dictate the conversation without really taking a side, other than to throw in a few suggestions about how we should leave, ie. in a custom union or aligned with the single market, neither of which the Tories would even contemplate. The negotiations between the two main parties have been a complete waste of time and effort.
The LibDems have effectively become a one trick pony, with opposing Brexit as their only real policy.
The SNP while being against Brexit are really just waiting for it to go tits up before demanding Indy Ref2.
The DUP are terrified of a hard border or even a soft one because they know it will lead to either a return of the troubles or further calls for a united Ireland, the backstop is not a solution and neither is a border in the Irish sea, so basically they have to go against their own agenda and try to cause Brexit to flounder while all the time making the right noises to their base.
UKIP are pretty much dead men walking and have been since Farage stepped down as leader. I've lost count of the amount of leaders they've had since, but the current one allowing the likes of Carl Benjamin and Mark Meechan to stand under their banner will surely be the death knell of the party.
TIG/Change are confusing. On one hand you have the centrists from the Labour party and on the other you likes of Soubry who still actually thinks that austerity, bedroom tax, benefit sanctions, etc. are good for the country and its people. Forgive me if I take offence at this bunch of charlatans trying to split the remain vote in a vain attempt to be relevent. Give it 12 months and they will be forgotten.
Plaid Cymru have at least, like the SNP, been consistent in their opposition to Brexit.
The Greens have one of the countries finest MPs and probably the most pro-EU stance of any party and might well get my vote in the upcoming EU election.
Which brings us finally to the Brexit Party. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a Brexit party planned for 29th March. Anyway, good old Nige is back from the brink and now has a new vehicle to keep himself in the public view (33rd appearance on QT last night, no-one else comes close). This is a party without members, a manifesto, a policy beyond Brexit, transparancy around funding or any other criteria for a political party, they do however have Ann Widdecombe and Jacob Rees Moggs sister speaking up for the masses. It really is beyond parody, yet people will still vote for this lot, because they get the airtime, the newsprint and the social media presence that Farage brings.
I'm a confirmed athiest, but God bloody help us. This country is going to hell in a hand cart, Brexit and austerity is destroying communities and pitting families against each other and when you look at our so called representatives you either have laugh or cry, because like everything else in Britain there is no middle ground.
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Post by northwestman on May 10, 2019 10:17:47 GMT 1
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Post by salop27 on May 10, 2019 21:37:51 GMT 1
Someone seems to have a problem with The Brexit Party! For the European elections it has a manifesto. It only has one thing on it but that's all it needs. Currently it's the most openly funded party. Last count 85000 odd people had donated £25 each, myself being one. Farage is a bit of a clown but he will/is shaking the political classes and his reappearance will lead to a Tory PM who might actually get the brexit job done. Good news.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 22:23:36 GMT 1
Someone seems to have a problem with The Brexit Party! For the European elections it has a manifesto. It only has one thing on it but that's all it needs. Currently it's the most openly funded party. Last count 85000 odd people had donated £25 each, myself being one. Farage is a bit of a clown but he will/is shaking the political classes and his reappearance will lead to a Tory PM who might actually get the brexit job done. Good news. I have been on the Brexit website and I can't find a manifesto. Could you link one, cheers.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 22:50:50 GMT 1
Where's our local recently defeated budding parish Councillor salopross these days? You there Ross?
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Post by salop27 on May 10, 2019 23:55:29 GMT 1
A manifesto is a public declaration of policy.It doesn't have to be a hundred page thick book packed full of rubbish which will never be acted upon. I believe the Brexit Party has said, possibly more then once, we should leave the eu ASAP and start trading on wto terms and will stand in the European elections on this public declaration. In other words a manifesto. Also the parties name gives a clue.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 7:40:43 GMT 1
A manifesto is a public declaration of policy.It doesn't have to be a hundred page thick book packed full of rubbish which will never be acted upon. I believe the Brexit Party has said, possibly more then once, we should leave the eu ASAP and start trading on wto terms and will stand in the European elections on this public declaration. In other words a manifesto. Also the parties name gives a clue. A bit loose with the noun there. A manifesto is a published declaration and your right, it doesn't have to be 100 pages thick. And, Brexit means different things to different people, so the name is, well a bit broad, but nuance was never Farage's strong point. Anyway, Farage caught out for the liar and charlatan he is on Question Time the other night as it happens.
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Post by Valerioch on May 11, 2019 8:43:25 GMT 1
A manifesto is a public declaration of policy.It doesn't have to be a hundred page thick book packed full of rubbish which will never be acted upon. I believe the Brexit Party has said, possibly more then once, we should leave the eu ASAP and start trading on wto terms and will stand in the European elections on this public declaration. In other words a manifesto. Also the parties name gives a clue. A bit loose with the noun there. A manifesto is a published declaration and your right, it doesn't have to be 100 pages thick. And, Brexit means different things to different people, so the name is, well a bit broad, but nuance was never Farage's strong point. Anyway, Farage caught out for the liar and charlatan he is on Question Time the other night as it happens. He also got a much better reception than Anna ‘Remoaner’ Soubry, who got howled and heckled down when repeatedly mentioning a people’s vote
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Post by Valerioch on May 11, 2019 8:47:11 GMT 1
When Theresa May came out and said no deal is better than a bad deal she made a rod for her own back and for everyone elses to boot. She gave hope to the Extreme Right Group of Rees Mogg, etc, but at the time alienated the slightly less extreme, but equally self-serving remainers like Anna Soubry, splitting the Tory party into even more bitter factions than had existed prior to the referendum.
Labour have fewer outright leavers, but when you have Kate Hoey sharing platforms with Farage and Tommy Two Shakes you have to wonder how left Lexit really is. Unfortunately the leadership have allowed the Tories, UKIP, TIG/Change and the EU itself to dictate the conversation without really taking a side, other than to throw in a few suggestions about how we should leave, ie. in a custom union or aligned with the single market, neither of which the Tories would even contemplate. The negotiations between the two main parties have been a complete waste of time and effort.
The LibDems have effectively become a one trick pony, with opposing Brexit as their only real policy.
The SNP while being against Brexit are really just waiting for it to go tits up before demanding Indy Ref2.
The DUP are terrified of a hard border or even a soft one because they know it will lead to either a return of the troubles or further calls for a united Ireland, the backstop is not a solution and neither is a border in the Irish sea, so basically they have to go against their own agenda and try to cause Brexit to flounder while all the time making the right noises to their base.
UKIP are pretty much dead men walking and have been since Farage stepped down as leader. I've lost count of the amount of leaders they've had since, but the current one allowing the likes of Carl Benjamin and Mark Meechan to stand under their banner will surely be the death knell of the party.
TIG/Change are confusing. On one hand you have the centrists from the Labour party and on the other you likes of Soubry who still actually thinks that austerity, bedroom tax, benefit sanctions, etc. are good for the country and its people. Forgive me if I take offence at this bunch of charlatans trying to split the remain vote in a vain attempt to be relevent. Give it 12 months and they will be forgotten.
Plaid Cymru have at least, like the SNP, been consistent in their opposition to Brexit.
The Greens have one of the countries finest MPs and probably the most pro-EU stance of any party and might well get my vote in the upcoming EU election.
Which brings us finally to the Brexit Party. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a Brexit party planned for 29th March. Anyway, good old Nige is back from the brink and now has a new vehicle to keep himself in the public view (33rd appearance on QT last night, no-one else comes close). This is a party without members, a manifesto, a policy beyond Brexit, transparancy around funding or any other criteria for a political party, they do however have Ann Widdecombe and Jacob Rees Moggs sister speaking up for the masses. It really is beyond parody, yet people will still vote for this lot, because they get the airtime, the newsprint and the social media presence that Farage brings.
I'm a confirmed athiest, but God bloody help us. This country is going to hell in a hand cart, Brexit and austerity is destroying communities and pitting families against each other and when you look at our so called representatives you either have laugh or cry, because like everything else in Britain there is no middle ground.
Just on your “transparency around funding” line news.sky.com/story/amp/jeremy-hosking-former-conservative-donor-revealed-as-major-backer-of-brexit-party-11716597Over 80,000 members have also paid £25 each which is over £2,000,000. You can also find more through a simple Google search. Should try it, might stop the inaccuracies in your posts
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 9:10:51 GMT 1
A bit loose with the noun there. A manifesto is a published declaration and your right, it doesn't have to be 100 pages thick. And, Brexit means different things to different people, so the name is, well a bit broad, but nuance was never Farage's strong point. Anyway, Farage caught out for the liar and charlatan he is on Question Time the other night as it happens. He also got a much better reception than Anna ‘Remoaner’ Soubry, who got howled and heckled down when repeatedly mentioning a people’s vote Well there you go. That really tells me who trades on WTO terms and how it would work.
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Post by Valerioch on May 11, 2019 9:14:25 GMT 1
He also got a much better reception than Anna ‘Remoaner’ Soubry, who got howled and heckled down when repeatedly mentioning a people’s vote Well there you go. That really tells me who trades on WTO terms and how it would work. www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47213842You can blame this shambles of a government for that one
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Post by northwestman on May 11, 2019 9:24:03 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 10:16:22 GMT 1
Well there you go. That really tells me who trades on WTO terms and how it would work. www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47213842You can blame this shambles of a government for that one I am well aware of this. The point I am making is that when asked who trades on WTO terms Farage admitted no one does, because let's face it, it wouldn't be great would it. You then replied with some whataboutry. Which is fine, crack on.
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Post by northwestman on May 11, 2019 12:47:25 GMT 1
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Post by darkshrew on May 11, 2019 17:02:27 GMT 1
Would love to think that there was a master plan in all this mess, even a sinister one, but I really doubt that they are that organised.
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Post by Valerioch on May 11, 2019 20:59:38 GMT 1
Latest poll has:
Brexit Party - 34% Labour - 21% LD - 12% Tory - 11%
Strange that. I thought we’d all changed our minds and now wanted a people’s vote.
Change UK - 3%
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Post by tvor on May 11, 2019 21:11:54 GMT 1
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Post by Valerioch on May 11, 2019 21:20:59 GMT 1
Very encouraging to see the Leave vote consistently under estimated in polls. At this rate the EU elections will hopefully be a clean sweep
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Post by tvor on May 11, 2019 21:25:01 GMT 1
You can put whatever spin on it you like, polls in recent times have shown to be very unreliable.
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Post by venceremos on May 11, 2019 22:48:48 GMT 1
Latest poll has: Brexit Party - 34% Labour - 21% LD - 12% Tory - 11% Strange that. I thought we’d all changed our minds and now wanted a people’s vote. Change UK - 3% How exactly would 34% tell you that’s not the case? Shouldn’t it be nearer 52% to justify your silly comment? Anyway, a poll is a poll and we’re still nearly 2 weeks away from an election (not a referendum), where turnout might be low. I wouldn’t get too excited too soon.
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Post by venceremos on May 11, 2019 22:54:07 GMT 1
A manifesto is a public declaration of policy.It doesn't have to be a hundred page thick book packed full of rubbish which will never be acted upon. Glad to read some sense from you on this point at least. Just makes me wonder why people on your side are so quick to accuse politicians of “treachery” when they don’t follow their party’s manifesto line.
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Post by Valerioch on May 12, 2019 8:36:43 GMT 1
Latest poll has: Brexit Party - 34% Labour - 21% LD - 12% Tory - 11% Strange that. I thought we’d all changed our minds and now wanted a people’s vote. Change UK - 3% How exactly would 34% tell you that’s not the case? Shouldn’t it be nearer 52% to justify your silly comment? Anyway, a poll is a poll and we’re still nearly 2 weeks away from an election (not a referendum), where turnout might be low. I wouldn’t get too excited too soon. Correct a poll is just a poll. As I said above hopefully the Leave vote is being under-estimated as is usually the case in polls Well UKIP is on 4% so that’s 38% Leave voters on that poll Some Leave voters will still vote Labour and Tories too - Christ knows why Feel free to keep burying your head in the sand
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Post by frankwellshrews on May 12, 2019 9:31:21 GMT 1
European elections are usually more prone to protest votes. People tend to gravitate back to the established parties in a GE.
Latest poll I heard this morning gave Farage and co 49 seats. Good on them, but it basically leaves Labour as the biggest party by a country mile. Very unlikely Corbyn will get into bed with Farage in the event of a minority government. Far more likely to do a deal with LD/Greens or even the Tories than he is to agree to vote with Farage, however much their brexit related interests might be aligned.
Most likely outcome of that scenario is a second vote (compromise between Labour's leave stance and the LD/Greens) and polling also suggests that remain will win that.
So there you go; please carry on voting for the Brexit Party. Suits me down to the ground as a Labour voting Remainer.
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Post by zenfootball2 on May 12, 2019 9:37:30 GMT 1
European elections are usually more prone to protest votes. People tend to gravitate back to the established parties in a GE. Latest poll I heard this morning gave Farage and co 49 seats. Good on them, but it basically leaves Labour as the biggest party by a country mile. Very unlikely Corbyn will get into bed with Farage in the event of a minority government. Far more likely to do a deal with LD/Greens or even the Tories than he is to agree to vote with Farage, however much their brexit related interests might be aligned. Most likely outcome of that scenario is a second vote (compromise between Labour's leave stance and the LD/Greens) and polling also suggests that remain will win that. So there you go; please carry on voting for the Brexit Party. Suits me down to the ground as a Labour voting Remainer. the other option is labour / green/ snp alliance
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Post by frankwellshrews on May 12, 2019 9:43:34 GMT 1
European elections are usually more prone to protest votes. People tend to gravitate back to the established parties in a GE. Latest poll I heard this morning gave Farage and co 49 seats. Good on them, but it basically leaves Labour as the biggest party by a country mile. Very unlikely Corbyn will get into bed with Farage in the event of a minority government. Far more likely to do a deal with LD/Greens or even the Tories than he is to agree to vote with Farage, however much their brexit related interests might be aligned. Most likely outcome of that scenario is a second vote (compromise between Labour's leave stance and the LD/Greens) and polling also suggests that remain will win that. So there you go; please carry on voting for the Brexit Party. Suits me down to the ground as a Labour voting Remainer. the other option is labour / green/ snp alliance Either way, most likely gives us a Remain outcome and a seriously depleted Tory party with Farage and co relegated to tantrumming in the corner again. Champagne, anyone? Btw, this is the general election poll I'm talking about; www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/poll-surge-for-farage-s-brexit-party-sparks-panic-among-tories-and-labour-1.3889455?mode=amp
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Post by mattmw on May 12, 2019 9:56:58 GMT 1
Quite like this Poll of Polls on the BBC site which shows how bats**t crazy the polls have been www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48227459Overall they show the figures as Brexit Party 27% Labour 25% Conservative 14% Liberal Democrats 11% Green Party 6% UKIP 4% Change UK 4% SNP 2% Comapred with the last election results in 2014 there isn't actually that much change with the Brexit party picking up the old UKIP vote and some Conservatives, and some small gains for the Liberal Democrats UK Independence Party 27% Labour 25% Conservative 23% Green Party 8% Scottish National 2% Liberal Democrats 7% Will be interesting to see elsewhere in Europe if there is a rise in the anti EU parties and an indication of more countries wanting to leave the EU. If that does happen it could see the EU maybe changing its position on Brexit, but initial polls don't really show the overall political outlook of MEP's changing that much This kind of indicates that the EU elections are a bit of a side show to the real brexit debate which will be decided in Parliament by the MP's. Either the Withdrawl deal is revisited and approved; or the Conservatives get a No Deal leader who pushes that through Parliament somehow, or we end up with a compromise deal that gets Labour voting for it. All of which seem unlikely at the moment. My money is going on a further extension of the UK leaving in October, although with the state of politics in the UK anything could happen. Either way we've got years of this to look forward to until its resolved
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2019 10:22:26 GMT 1
Farage has been an MEP for goodness knows how many years without ever being constructive. Perhaps, if he had, the EU parliament would have listened. In his case, it is no wonder he maintains that we have no influence. Always a one trick pony.
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Post by percy on May 12, 2019 13:10:58 GMT 1
Saw Farage on the Andrew Marr show this morning - good grief, regardless of what he stands for, what an unpleasant individual.
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Post by zenfootball2 on May 12, 2019 14:27:30 GMT 1
nothing like the prospect of losing the gravey train to galvanise polticians .
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