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Post by thesensationaljt on Aug 13, 2017 22:33:16 GMT 1
Not part of the Schengen agreement so we have always been able to check who's coming in.
Oh dear.......I'm out of here.
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Post by mattmw on Aug 13, 2017 22:44:18 GMT 1
When Farage starts distancing himself from someone as being a bit too right wing you know your in trouble!
Trump and Brexit unlikely to survive by the spring of 2019 it's the damage they both do in the meantime that's going to be the tricky bit
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Post by SeanBroseley on Aug 13, 2017 23:03:25 GMT 1
The footage shows that only one side came to cause serious trouble. This is one of the problems with the left - they don't come seriously tooled up. However I was gratified to see this happen:
That is the way to do it: Pressure them, harass them, never give these fascists time to think. Because they need a lot of thinking time. Good job well done.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Aug 14, 2017 7:10:09 GMT 1
Not part of the Schengen agreement so we have always been able to check who's coming in.
Oh dear.......I'm out of here.
Why? Genuinely curious about what it is he said that you feel is so stupid. I see you're learning the "if I can't win the argument I'll just pretend that what you've said is so silly that responding is beneath me" trick from stuttgartershrew and the rest of the alt right.
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Post by kinder on Aug 14, 2017 7:10:33 GMT 1
At least he was elected is no excuse for allowing the rise of the far right, for allowing the open hostility of nazis on the streets of the USA he may be democratically elected but that is no excuse for the evil oppression that the far right will bring, modern slavery? You have seen nothing yet with this lot......and we sit and debate the F...king hokey pokey....in or bloody out more like head in sand and forget what our fathers fought for.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 10:47:31 GMT 1
Which is a bit rich from someone who dodged the issue by changing the frame of the discussion.
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Post by venceremos on Aug 14, 2017 12:46:28 GMT 1
Not part of the Schengen agreement so we have always been able to check who's coming in. One of the worst truth benders of the brextremists has been that we have to leave to control our borders. We have always had control of our borders. If we didn't control them as much as some would like, that was our choice and not because the EU prevented us from doing so. Another reason why it was a grievous mistake to let Cameron and his government front the remain campaign - it was too embarrassing for them to admit this point, so they ignored it.
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Post by returnofthehype on Aug 14, 2017 15:00:15 GMT 1
Lefties at it again!! Is there no end to there violent and misguided actions.
Said it before I will say it again...the unwashed lefties biggest threat we face today
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Aug 14, 2017 16:49:59 GMT 1
My youngest is at the University of Warwick starting (what she hopes will be) a career as an academic.
The University is on the edge of Coventry and has close associations with local industry, such as BMW/Mini and Jaguar/Land Rover through its business and engineering departments.
The news that the electric Mini will be built in Coventry was a great boost to the city and the uni and a surprise in these uncertain times.
At a party last week my daughter met a senior exec from BMW and asked him how the decision had been made. He said that BMW were taking a gamble on Brexit not happening or at least a very soft Brexit. He said that the company had tried to get advice and guidance from the Government but no one in the relevant departments had a clue or any insight into future plans. BMWs view was that if Brexit happens there will have to be at least 10 years transition so they were prepared to take the risk.
She also spoke to a nuclear engineer who said that if the Government goes ahead with plans to quit Euratom we would have to close our nuclear power stations because we have nothing in place to provide independent inspection of nuclear facilities. We would have to set up our own equivalent of Euratom and it takes 5 years to train inspectors. Of course we could employ non British inspectors or let the Chinese and French who own our reactors to do their own thing without scrutiny.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 16:53:51 GMT 1
My youngest is at the University of Warwick starting (what she hopes will be) a career as an academic. The University is on the edge of Coventry and has close associations with local industry, such as BMW/Mini and Jaguar/Land Rover through its business and engineering departments. The news that the electric Mini will be built in Coventry was a great boost to the city and the uni and a surprise in these uncertain times. At a party last week my daughter met a senior exec from BMW and asked him how the decision had been made. He said that BMW were taking a gamble on Brexit not happening or at least a very soft Brexit. He said that the company had tried to get advice and guidance from the Government but no one in the relevant departments had a clue or any insight into future plans. BMWs view was that if Brexit happens there will have to be at least 10 years transition so they were prepared to take the risk. She also spoke to a nuclear engineer who said that if the Government goes ahead with plans to quit Euratom we would have to close our nuclear power stations because we have nothing in place to provide independent inspection of nuclear facilities. We would have to set up our own equivalent of Euratom and it takes 5 years to train inspectors. Of course we could employ non British inspectors or let the Chinese and French who own our reactors to do their own thing without scrutiny. The last part of that had already been widely reported for considerable time.
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Post by Exkeeper on Aug 14, 2017 16:55:09 GMT 1
My youngest is at the University of Warwick starting (what she hopes will be) a career as an academic. The University is on the edge of Coventry and has close associations with local industry, such as BMW/Mini and Jaguar/Land Rover through its business and engineering departments. The news that the electric Mini will be built in Coventry was a great boost to the city and the uni and a surprise in these uncertain times. At a party last week my daughter met a senior exec from BMW and asked him how the decision had been made. He said that BMW were taking a gamble on Brexit not happening or at least a very soft Brexit. He said that the company had tried to get advice and guidance from the Government but no one in the relevant departments had a clue or any insight into future plans. BMWs view was that if Brexit happens there will have to be at least 10 years transition so they were prepared to take the risk. She also spoke to a nuclear engineer who said that if the Government goes ahead with plans to quit Euratom we would have to close our nuclear power stations because we have nothing in place to provide independent inspection of nuclear facilities. We would have to set up our own equivalent of Euratom and it takes 5 years to train inspectors. Of course we could employ non British inspectors or let the Chinese and French who own our reactors to do their own thing without scrutiny. None of that surprises me, except possibly the fact that BMW were prepared to take the risk. I notice today that a Chinese bank is moving out of London and relocating to Luxemburg, and others will follow.
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Post by jamo on Aug 14, 2017 17:51:32 GMT 1
My youngest is at the University of Warwick starting (what she hopes will be) a career as an academic. The University is on the edge of Coventry and has close associations with local industry, such as BMW/Mini and Jaguar/Land Rover through its business and engineering departments. The news that the electric Mini will be built in Coventry was a great boost to the city and the uni and a surprise in these uncertain times. At a party last week my daughter met a senior exec from BMW and asked him how the decision had been made. He said that BMW were taking a gamble on Brexit not happening or at least a very soft Brexit. He said that the company had tried to get advice and guidance from the Government but no one in the relevant departments had a clue or any insight into future plans. BMWs view was that if Brexit happens there will have to be at least 10 years transition so they were prepared to take the risk. She also spoke to a nuclear engineer who said that if the Government goes ahead with plans to quit Euratom we would have to close our nuclear power stations because we have nothing in place to provide independent inspection of nuclear facilities. We would have to set up our own equivalent of Euratom and it takes 5 years to train inspectors. Of course we could employ non British inspectors or let the Chinese and French who own our reactors to do their own thing without scrutiny. What an almighty mess we are in. Never mind though, at least we shall get back control.
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Post by Exkeeper on Aug 14, 2017 18:08:06 GMT 1
We have always had control.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 12:47:39 GMT 1
Lefties at it again!! Is there no end to there violent and misguided actions. Said it before I will say it again...the unwashed lefties biggest threat we face today Lefties? Are you suggesting the only people who are opposed to far right, nazi saluting, fascists are lefties? Are you familiar with britains history during the 1930s - 40s?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 14:40:11 GMT 1
Lefties at it again!! Is there no end to there violent and misguided actions. Said it before I will say it again...the unwashed lefties biggest threat we face today Lefties? Are you suggesting the only people who are opposed to far right, nazi saluting, fascists are lefties? Are you familiar with britains history during the 1930s - 40s? I will answer for him, saves a lot of time and trouble . Obviously not . In his case ignorance is bliss .
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Post by kinder on Aug 16, 2017 14:46:46 GMT 1
Lefties at it again!! Is there no end to there violent and misguided actions. Said it before I will say it again...the unwashed lefties biggest threat we face today Lefties? Are you suggesting the only people who are opposed to far right, nazi saluting, fascists are lefties? Are you familiar with britains history during the 1930s - 40s? Seems like returnofthehype must be living in an alternative universe.....my father and grandfather, both union men, both labour but neither of them could ever be described as lefties in the abusive way he throws around, were prepared, along with their friends and relatives to defend his rights against the scum that spawned the evil thugs he now wishes to defend. There is only one response to the growth of the far right in both Europe an America and that is for all in power to condemn in the loudest most consistent way.......or the future is that of the KKK & their Nazis friends.......God help us all
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Post by sussexshrew on Aug 16, 2017 15:38:54 GMT 1
Thesensationaljt said:
"I don't mind snuggling up to Gisela Stuart, Kate Hoey, Kelvin Hopkins and Frank Field."
****
Does Frank Field still do his yodeling, or is anything Alpine considered too European since Brexit? Perhaps you can ask him next time he is snuggled up in your bed.
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Post by sussexshrew on Aug 16, 2017 15:41:18 GMT 1
My bedfellows would also include another prominent Remainer, the delectable Tory MP Heidi Allen. Heidi Allen? Surely she is too Alpine as well.
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Post by shrewder on Aug 16, 2017 15:43:39 GMT 1
Lefties at it again!! Is there no end to there violent and misguided actions. Said it before I will say it again...the unwashed lefties biggest threat we face today Fake news!!!
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Post by sussexshrew on Aug 16, 2017 16:31:20 GMT 1
I'm not quite sure how a discussion about the events at Charlottesville veered quite so heavily into another Brexit debate. I presume as another example of polarisation. However I have never known the US to be as polarised as it is now. yes there has always been fierce loyalties to the two main parties, but it used to be that once elections were decided, the majority of Americans would gloss over their difference and support their President.
But now that hasn't happened. It is becoming almost tribal and what used to be differences of opinion has become hatred. I have several good friends in the US and they are truly anguished by the way things now are. Most all of these friends are either in the medical or teaching professions, and they are genuinely fearful of the way the new powers in the GOP are crushing science and thought. Yes Trump won, even though not with the popular vote, but he won because of the votes of the uneducated and dim. No I am not suggesting that everybody who voted Trump is dim; but almost everybody who is dim did vote for him. The main voting block that put him in power was the White Evangelical Christians. Over 80% of them voted Trump. And they are not a small group; they make up 25% of the electorate. And while these white evangelicals are not all racists, and many, many condemn the actions in Virginia, sadly so many of those perpetrators of the violence are the God, America and Guns wing of the Evangelicals. An unbelievable 60% of adult Americans believe the Noah's Ark genocidal flood to be a true story, and of those 60% who did vote, almost 90% voted Trump.
So educated Americans see an administration that has a Vice-President who believes the World to be 6,000 years old; Environmental Agencies that forbid the use of the words "Climate Change", that want Creation to be taught over Evolution in schools, that want money diverted from State Education to Religious schools, that stands aside while Homophobia and Racism are propounded, that wants Health and Social care taken away from those that need it most, that worship their guns and bow before the gun-lobby. many want not only doctors who perform abortions to be locked up, but the women who have them, even as a result of rape or incest.
Basically the Americans along the two coasts with their art and science, their ideas and innovations, their egalitarian ideals, feel at the mercy of the red-necks, the home-schooled, the dim and the bible-thumpers.
And they hate it. I don't blame them.
The US is in a very bad place. The events at Charlottesville showed that. and it is going to get an awful lot worse.
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Post by lenny on Aug 16, 2017 16:40:21 GMT 1
The US is in a very bad place. The events at Charlottesville showed that. and it is going to get an awful lot worse. That is what scares me more than anything. I just don't see how the climate there is one that will peacefully diffuse.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Aug 16, 2017 16:42:24 GMT 1
At times you've got to call a spade a spade. First an foremost Trump should have come out and condemned those Nazi, far-right, white supremacist as the evil barstewards that they are. That they are simply wrong and there is no place for them in modern America or elsewhere. Then second should have come the condemnation of those who on the other side of things are also there to cause confrontation and cause violence.
I don't see any issue in calling out all those involved in trouble. I do hope we see more of it.
The far right need to be called out for what they are but that goes for others too who incite and cause violence. That was certainly the case here in Germany after Hamburg. We had loads in the news (even in the children's TV news bulletins) about the far extreme left. It was refreshing to see. We see, rightly, plenty of warning and condemnation of the far right but we also need to with regards to the extreme far left. More so now that we appear to be seeing politics becoming ever more polarized.
I do think he has a point that all sides concerned are a to blame for the violence; that said Trump has to be much, much stronger in his condemnation of the far right. That simply wasn't good enough. But no surprise I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 17:01:15 GMT 1
Agree with that Stutty, no place for violence or intimidation from any extremist groups, though my experience of the far left in this country only goes as far as some bearded 60 year old wearing brown cordaroy shoving a copy of socialist worker under your nose!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 17:05:40 GMT 1
We see, rightly, plenty of warning and condemnation of the far right but we also need to with regards to the extreme far left Really? Pretty sure 90% of the mainstream media in this country have hyped this military extremist super bad ultra threat of 'the left' for quite some time now. Certainly I read far more about the threat of the left in the UK than the right.
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Post by venceremos on Aug 16, 2017 17:06:37 GMT 1
Basically the Americans along the two coasts with their art and science, their ideas and innovations, their egalitarian ideals, feel at the mercy of the red-necks, the home-schooled, the dim and the bible-thumpers. And they hate it. I don't blame them. The US is in a very bad place. The events at Charlottesville showed that. and it is going to get an awful lot worse. It's becoming Gilead (for those who watched The Handmaid's Tale recently, or have read the novel) more quickly than we could have imagined. Or is it? For all the "fire and fury" I can equally imagine a scenario where the Republicans lose control of Congress in 2018. If Trump can't get legislation passed when his own party controls both houses of Congress, what chance would he have if the Democrats alone could block him? Yes, it could get much worse. But it could also be that the support of mainstream Republicans (which is all that keeps Trump in power) will desert him if it seems he can achieve nothing. Worth noting that ex-Presidents Bush snr and jnr have just condemned the white supremacists and anti-Semitism that Trump had to be dragged into half-criticising. Republicans in the House of Reps could turn very quickly if the 2018 elections don't go well for them. If Trump's power declines, I'd expect his support to collapse dramatically and, a decade from now, you'd struggle to find anyone willing to confess that they'd ever backed him, outside the lunatic fringes. I live in hope.
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Post by venceremos on Aug 16, 2017 17:13:35 GMT 1
At times you've got to call a spade a spade. First an foremost Trump should have come out and condemned those Nazi, far-right, white supremacist as the evil barstewards that they are. That they are simply wrong and there is no place for them in modern America or elsewhere. Then second should have come the condemnation of those who on the other side of things are also there to cause confrontation and cause violence. I don't see any issue in calling out all those involved in trouble. I do hope we see more of it. The far right need to be called out for what they are but that goes for others too who incite and cause violence. That was certainly the case here in Germany after Hamburg. We had loads in the news (even in the children's TV news bulletins) about the far extreme left. It was refreshing to see. We see, rightly, plenty of warning and condemnation of the far right but we also need to with regards to the extreme far left. More so now that we appear to be seeing politics becoming ever more polarized. I do think he has a point that all sides concerned are a to blame for the violence; that said Trump has to be much, much stronger in his condemnation of the far right. That simply wasn't good enough. But no surprise I guess. I don't condone anyone setting out to cause violence. But the far left has no political power. The far right believes itself empowered by the Trump administration - not without reason. You will not suffer violence at the hands of people protesting against a statue institutionalising bigotry and racism. Self-evidently, you might at the hands of the far right. Many more have died in the US at the hands of white supremacist terrorists than from any other domestic group. I'm not saying you're suggesting it, but there is no moral equivalence between racists and anti-racists and it's offensive and dangerous for Trump to act as though there were.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 19:02:37 GMT 1
I think to call the opposition to the KKK, (armed) Nationalist Militias and Neo-Nazis who marched in Charlottesville extreme 'far left' rather shows a lack of understanding the complexities of the groups actually involved in this opposition. Obviously, there are groups that identify themselves as 'far-left', but if people research the groups involved, they'll find them to be 'moderate'. Just because people who are offended by the KKK, et al and protest against them, doesn't make them 'far-left'. Any decent person will be offended by the racism, misogyny and antisemitism propagated by these groups.
We also need to remember who came tooled up to this march. The far-right are emboldened and enabled by Trump's rhetoric, that's why he needs to condemn them in the strongest terms and not worry about the other side. It's a bit little telling the little fella off for hitting the big bully. Why is the bully a bully in the first place should be the question.
There is still this fear of 'reds under the bed' in the 21st Century and that fear in the 20s and 30s enabled the rise of Fascism and National Socialism. The far-right was seen as the lesser of two evils and importantly not interested in social revolution. The far-right today shouldn't be seen as the lesser of two evils and again this is why Trump needs to condemn the right and not worry about the far-left in the US.
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Post by sussexshrew on Aug 17, 2017 0:09:30 GMT 1
Before suggesting that if the violence is equal, blame should be equal, surely you have to take into account the ideology at the core of the problem. If groups of anti-fascists fought with Hitler's most fervent supporters of Nazi ideology in the 1930s Germany, would we say that both sides were equally to blame if the level of violence was equal.
Surely we would be right in thinking that those who fought to oppose the notions of racial superiority were fighting for a just world and so should be lauded and not condemned as being equally to blame.
The notion of white, Caucasian supremacy in modern America must surely be condemned, and although violent protest should be strongly discouraged, the core blame for what happened has to fall on the racist side. And to be fair, many leading Republicans have made this clear. The worry is that Trump didn't agree with them until the backlash became too strong.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Aug 17, 2017 1:13:25 GMT 1
While probably not an actual supporter of the far-right racists, Trump's words and actions (or lack thereof in some cases) have time and again shown where his priorities and biases lie. This is compounded by the man's innate childishness and self-absorption - he just cannot stand any criticism, hence his belligerent and ill-advised press conference in reaction to the criticism of his initial statements regarding the Charlottesville troubles. He is absolutely unfit for office and is causing and heightening terrible division in America.
Anyway, regarding Charlottesville, watch this:
It makes me physically sick. Anyone who thinks there is equal blame or that those so-called "Antifa" protesters are the danger need to think again.
And, by the way, surely now it is time that Mrs May withdraw her invitation for Trump's state visit? He's likely to be welcomed about as warmly as Kim Jong Un!
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Post by shrewinjapan on Aug 17, 2017 1:33:25 GMT 1
Also, this is a very moving, passionate, enlightening speech from the mayor of New Orleans on why the old Confederate statues should be taken down:
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