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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 15:44:19 GMT 1
Well, been thinking about the thugs that were present for both sets of teams on Tuesday night, I personally think that both sets of fans need to look at what they did and ask themselves how reasonalbe were they and what did they add to the situation.
Do not get me wrong, I enjoy a pint before the game, and I enjoy a bit of banter with the opposition!! but where does it cross the line.
First of all, what is banter?? calling the opposition inbreads?? tell em to F off?? wavings the V's at them?? well if thats banter, then try it in the street.... think you may get a different reaction, to me that is provocative, and if you condone it at any sport then really you do need to look at why you go to games.
On tuesday, when we scored the first, and they started to kick off, was there any need for our idiots to race to the bottom of block 19 and react the way they did, cos as soon as that occured it just was inevitable that the stewards and police would become overrun!! and thats what happened.
If our SUPPORTERS had not reacted then the stewards would only need to worry about the Hereford fans. prehaps one day, we will get a game where our idiots in block 19 go there to support STFC, and watch the game, and not worry about what the opposition fans are doing? or is this unreasonable to expect decent human beings to show restraint??
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Post by SY3 on Nov 25, 2010 15:51:39 GMT 1
I think ultimately a lot of people in block 19 crave that kind of situation - which is probably why they choose to sit there. I sat there once and found the view of the game terrible, so i chose to buy a ST in block 18 instead which is much better. The only reason i can think of being in 19 is if you enjoy the banter and crave confrontation.
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Post by simianus on Nov 25, 2010 15:51:52 GMT 1
Well, been thinking about the thugs that were present for both sets of teams on Tuesday night, I personally think that both sets of fans need to look at what they did and ask themselves how reasonalbe were they and what did they add to the situation. Do not get me wrong, I enjoy a pint before the game, and I enjoy a bit of banter with the opposition!! but where does it cross the line. First of all, what is banter?? calling the opposition inbreads?? tell em to F off?? wavings the V's at them?? well if thats banter, then try it in the street.... think you may get a different reaction, to me that is provocative, and if you condone it at any sport then really you do need to look at why you go to games. On tuesday, when we scored the first, and they started to kick off, was there any need for our idiots to race to the bottom of block 19 and react the way they did, cos as soon as that occured it just was inevitable that the stewards and police would become overrun!! and thats what happened. If our SUPPORTERS had not reacted then the stewards would only need to worry about the Hereford fans. prehaps one day, we will get a game where our idiots in block 19 go there to support STFC, and watch the game, and not worry about what the opposition fans are doing? or is this unreasonable to expect decent human beings to show restraint?? made similar comments to the chap that sits next to me on Tuesday. they did it a couple of times against southend too, rather childish i think, grown men running down the stairs to flick the v's or make a knuckle shuffle gesture.
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Post by shrew4life on Nov 25, 2010 16:00:09 GMT 1
An idiotic comment calling the fans in block 19 idiots. There are plenty of fans in block 19 who sit there just to get behind the team and sing there hearts out as that is part of there match day instead of sitting quietly for 90 minutes!
Compared to when we have played vale, not that many ran down the front to goad of shout or whatever. There was a few on Tuesday night but without a shadow of a doubt this time Hereford fans were the ones intent on causing trouble and trying to get to block 19.
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Post by simianus on Nov 25, 2010 16:03:19 GMT 1
An idiotic comment calling the fans in block 19 idiots. There are plenty of fans in block 19 who sit there just to get behind the team and sing there hearts out as that is part of there match day instead of sitting quietly for 90 minutes! Compared to when we have played vale, not that many ran down the front to goad of shout or whatever. There was a few on Tuesday night but without a shadow of a doubt this time Hereford fans were the ones intent on causing trouble and trying to get to block 19. i dont think he meant all of them, just the ones who enflamed the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 16:15:29 GMT 1
was a very similar experience at Chesterfield this season. Seems to be in vogue to run down stairways and expect the opposition fans to rush towards you, but it seldom escalates beyond that. That said, it's been brewing for a while now at the Meadow and if the club don't put the prventative measures in place, I fear the home clash with Port Vale could see some serious crowd disorder. It wasn't good to see the club portrayed on the Regional News programme the other night as a place where violence may break out. Anyone thinking of taking their youngsters along to the Family Club of the Year, may well have been put off by the images projected from their TV screens. There were plenty of Hereford United fans behind that goal whose interest in watching the game ended after 14 minutes. That can't be right, attending football matches with the sole intention of baying at each other, so although a minority, those involved should give their heads a shake.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 16:27:19 GMT 1
I sit in block 19 every home game, on Tuesday i ran to the front in the excitment of scoring, just as i did at, for example, Crewe a few weeks ago and Bury in the playoffs. Me and a lot of people in 19 have banter with away fans, as it was Hereford on Tuesday it was obviously at a higher level then usual. Like many others i work with and know Hereford fans and have had experiences of their fans goading us at and after games in the past. I ran to the front, i celebrated near the corner for the first goal as it was so important but after that i stayed in the stand, still letting the Hereford fans how we felt about them though! In my opinion theres nothing wrong with that, iv never got in fights at games and not planning to, but if away fans taunt me, il give it back. Out of the last 110 league fixtures, iv missed 16, so you cant say everyone in block 19 aren't proper fans.
Also, the reason i sit in 19 is because our attempt at moving to the South Stand never worked, the main thing about 19 is that you can sit where you want, we turn up pretty early and get good seats and meet people instead of being restricted to a certain seat.
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Post by simianus on Nov 25, 2010 16:43:23 GMT 1
I sit in block 19 every home game, on Tuesday i ran to the front in the excitment of scoring, just as i did at, for example, Crewe a few weeks ago and Bury in the playoffs. Me and a lot of people in 19 have banter with away fans, as it was Hereford on Tuesday it was obviously at a higher level then usual. Like many others i work with and know Hereford fans and have had experiences of their fans goading us at and after games in the past. I ran to the front, i celebrated near the corner for the first goal as it was so important but after that i stayed in the stand, still letting the Hereford fans how we felt about them though! In my opinion theres nothing wrong with that, iv never got in fights at games and not planning to, but if away fans taunt me, il give it back. Out of the last 110 league fixtures, iv missed 16, so you cant say everyone in block 19 aren't proper fans. Also, the reason i sit in 19 is because our attempt at moving to the South Stand never worked, the main thing about 19 is that you can sit where you want, we turn up pretty early and get good seats and meet people instead of being restricted to a certain seat. nobody said you werent proper fans did they? just that doing what you do runs the risk of making a bad situation worse
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 16:51:35 GMT 1
I sit in block 19 every home game, on Tuesday i ran to the front in the excitment of scoring, just as i did at, for example, Crewe a few weeks ago and Bury in the playoffs. Me and a lot of people in 19 have banter with away fans, as it was Hereford on Tuesday it was obviously at a higher level then usual. Like many others i work with and know Hereford fans and have had experiences of their fans goading us at and after games in the past. I ran to the front, i celebrated near the corner for the first goal as it was so important but after that i stayed in the stand, still letting the Hereford fans how we felt about them though! In my opinion theres nothing wrong with that, iv never got in fights at games and not planning to, but if away fans taunt me, il give it back. Out of the last 110 league fixtures, iv missed 16, so you cant say everyone in block 19 aren't proper fans. Also, the reason i sit in 19 is because our attempt at moving to the South Stand never worked, the main thing about 19 is that you can sit where you want, we turn up pretty early and get good seats and meet people instead of being restricted to a certain seat. Out of interest Danny, why do you feel that you are being taunted?? now I understand how important the first goal is, and can happily contain myself, along with a few other thousand supporters to just jumping up and down and celebrating without the need for a physcical outburst toward the opposition supporters, which is directly opposite of where our goal scorer was going...... and the comment about letting the hereford fans know what you thought about them?? why think about them in the first instance?? they have no bearing on you or STFC in the slightest, in fact you should thank them as they have helped STFC by putting money in the coffers!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 16:52:30 GMT 1
Also interested as to what your banter consists of??
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 17:27:57 GMT 1
Put it this way, a team like Accrington, have a real decent bunch of fans and make a fair amount of noise for the size of their followings. They turn up at the Meadow and have a nice sing song and watch the game, if we score, i have no intention of rubbing it in to them or 'goading' or 'taunting' them. Whereas in recent games against Hereford and Port Vale, a very large amount of their fans turned up, sat near the front and from the first minute they walked in, started taunting and having a go at us, then when we score, its the complete opposite to Accrington for me, once we have scored and its all calmed down, i see nothing wrong with having a little go at the individuals who had been trying to wind us up from the moment they arrived, if they cant take some banter, they shouldnt give it the moment they walk into our ground. I didnt and never would try and get across to the away fans or lean/knock over the sponsor boards like our fans and Herefords did, i have nothing against the stewards and i actualy had abit of a go at someone because he just walked upto a steward and started giving him abuse for no reason whatsoever.
As for what banter consists of, or what i did on Tuesday, all i do/did is sing in their direction and celebrate in their direction, and when i say their direction i just mean the idiots at the front, i have just as much respect for the proper loyal Hereford fans as any other team, i work alongside 2 of them.
Basically if away fans turn up and get behind their team and leave us alone, il do the same, but if its a derby game and as soon as they walk in all they want to do is taunt us, when/if we score, il give it back, along with the other few hundred in 18 and 19.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Nov 25, 2010 17:39:02 GMT 1
Downie, great opening post and subsequent ones. I totally agree.
Just fail to see why there's a need to react such incidents. Why do some of the idiots / little boys in block 19 - and others - have to rush to the front and spend large amount of the time standing their intent on watching the away end fans and making stupid gestures???
Home fans don't appreciate it. The away fans don't. The club doesn't. So why do it? Do they think they some how look impressive or clever or even tough? No, they look like morons!
And you're right on the whole 'inbreds' thing too, although there's quite a few from this forum who seem to love giving that out.
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Post by simianus on Nov 25, 2010 17:52:44 GMT 1
Put it this way, a team like Accrington, have a real decent bunch of fans and make a fair amount of noise for the size of their followings. They turn up at the Meadow and have a nice sing song and watch the game, if we score, i have no intention of rubbing it in to them or 'goading' or 'taunting' them. Whereas in recent games against Hereford and Port Vale, a very large amount of their fans turned up, sat near the front and from the first minute they walked in, started taunting and having a go at us, then when we score, its the complete opposite to Accrington for me, once we have scored and its all calmed down, i see nothing wrong with having a little go at the individuals who had been trying to wind us up from the moment they arrived, if they cant take some banter, they shouldnt give it the moment they walk into our ground. I didnt and never would try and get across to the away fans or lean/knock over the sponsor boards like our fans and Herefords did, i have nothing against the stewards and i actualy had abit of a go at someone because he just walked upto a steward and started giving him abuse for no reason whatsoever. As for what banter consists of, or what i did on Tuesday, all i do/did is sing in their direction and celebrate in their direction, and when i say their direction i just mean the idiots at the front, i have just as much respect for the proper loyal Hereford fans as any other team, i work alongside 2 of them. Basically if away fans turn up and get behind their team and leave us alone, il do the same, but if its a derby game and as soon as they walk in all they want to do is taunt us, when/if we score, il give it back, along with the other few hundred in 18 and 19. i like to hear the singing, when it's loud enough to hear. the issue is with the running down business, i think some of us have a problem understanding what it is all about. is it just a case of people lacking self control? have to be honest, when i see things like the clubs property being destroyed, it does make me angry and part of me would happily slap one of the people doing it, but its a very small urge and easy to ignore by the sensible bit of my brain. would you say alcohol has an effect ?
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Post by pvfclad88 on Nov 25, 2010 17:57:09 GMT 1
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Post by champagneprince on Nov 25, 2010 18:00:51 GMT 1
Banter has always been part of football just the same as cheering and singing has. Sitting down quitely like you're at the theatre has never been part of football.
Kids who go to football should be warned by their parents what to expect. They're not going to the cinema or to the pantomine, they are going to watch football and at football they will hear swearing and they will witness people making rude signs and being abusive to the opposition fans. That's the reality of choosing to watch football over other activities.
However, rarely nowadays, will they be involved in any violence or be so afraid they never want to go again. It can happen but it's very rare.
Therefore, I see it like this. There can be trouble at football, it's not a good thing, but the reality is that it happens, but rarely does it escalate into violence. There is a fine line between banter and goading just like there is between goading and trouble. Maybe there is a scale, something like below :
1. Silence 2. Singing/cheering 3. Banter 4. Goading 5. Trouble 6. Violence
At football i'm sure none of us want number 1 but as football fans we welcome number 2. Number 3 will appeal to many fans, because it is and always has been a way of relieving stresses of the working week. Some people will see 4 as acceptable, I don't but then again when the game has got passionate then I admit I too have engaged in the odd bit of verbal goading and inappropriate sign language. That probably makes me a hypocrite but it is rare and I do try to curtail it. That said, i'm a football fan so would rather 'goad' than be 'silent'.
I think 5 (trouble 'rushing towards the front' etc) is unwelcome but I accept that this is something a football fan might do.
But 6 is completely unacceptable to me.
I don't want controls to be such that I sit there in silence every game. Likewise I don't want to witness violence. What I want is somewhere in between and at the moment I am happy that it's something that we've got both at The Meadow and in football in general.
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Post by champagneprince on Nov 25, 2010 18:02:01 GMT 1
See what I mean. Good old banter. You can't beat it !
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Post by Pilch on Nov 25, 2010 18:08:01 GMT 1
seems to me life hereford had already agreed to charge across when a goal was scored
so lets blame mark wright ;-)
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Post by northwestman on Nov 25, 2010 18:11:27 GMT 1
Trouble is champagneprince..he means it!
Our club has until Tuesday 8th March to come up with some solution. Otherwise I think it's inevitable we shall have serious crowd trouble.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 18:21:15 GMT 1
Interested to know if a chant wishing Paul Simpson would die, as was instigated by a sizeable minority at Stockport, is classed as banter by the perpetrators of that.
Some people have neither the wit or wisdom to know where to draw a line.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Nov 25, 2010 19:13:56 GMT 1
The sheer fact that a person has paid a few pennies to enter a stadium to watch a sporting event does not give them reason to become abusive, aggressive or violent. Lets get that straight from the start.
I often wonder about the IQ levels of some in block 19 and 9 for that matter, the excuse of "we're real fans" is frankly pathetic. The behaviour displayed in front of women and children is appalling and would not be tolerated elsewhere.
Having watched a rugby game recently the difference is astonishing, I only wish we had some of the decorum and sporting qualities displayed by our Rugby supporting brethren.
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Post by mikeinsheff2 on Nov 25, 2010 19:36:17 GMT 1
Having watched a rugby game recently the difference is astonishing, I only wish we had some of the decorum and sporting qualities displayed by our Rugby supporting brethren. A bit irrelevant. Ever met Hull KR supporters?
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richiebug2
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Post by richiebug2 on Nov 25, 2010 19:48:28 GMT 1
Whats happened to our flag? Is it on the mend??
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Post by venceremos on Nov 25, 2010 19:59:11 GMT 1
Having watched a rugby game recently the difference is astonishing, I only wish we had some of the decorum and sporting qualities displayed by our Rugby supporting brethren. A bit irrelevant. Ever met Hull KR supporters? Think the reference was to rugby union, if it was watched recently and because it was referred to as "rugby" - a dead giveaway for the wrong version of the sport. Rugby league crowds are still great, though there's maybe a bit more hostility and less good humour than there used to be, which is a shame. I've watched hundreds of RL games and rarely worried about whether I had fans of the other team around me. There's still a lot of genuine wit and banter in RL crowds too. Mind you, the Hull & HKR fans maybe aren't as nice as most. Big sections of RL and football crowds are tribal and that's what makes the atmosphere but there's always been a nastier edge to some football crowds. Looking at Tuesday night, I don't class making gestures at opposition fans as "banter". And you don't need to be Oscar Wilde to run to the front and give it the old outstretched arms either. Pretty stupid for anyone over 14 and I've rarely seen it at RL games. I love it if the atmosphere's feisty and the rival fans add to that. The line's crossed though if it gets at all intimidating and would put people off going to football in future. Tuesday was nothing that would put me off but I think a good few would stop going if that sort of thing recurred. It went too far and some in block 19 didn't help at all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 20:13:32 GMT 1
Banter has always been part of football just the same as cheering and singing has. Sitting down quitely like you're at the theatre has never been part of football. Kids who go to football should be warned by their parents what to expect. They're not going to the cinema or to the pantomine, they are going to watch football and at football they will hear swearing and they will witness people making rude signs and being abusive to the opposition fans. That's the reality of choosing to watch football over other activities. However, rarely nowadays, will they be involved in any violence or be so afraid they never want to go again. It can happen but it's very rare. Therefore, I see it like this. There can be trouble at football, it's not a good thing, but the reality is that it happens, but rarely does it escalate into violence. There is a fine line between banter and goading just like there is between goading and trouble. Maybe there is a scale, something like below : 1. Silence 2. Singing/cheering 3. Banter 4. Goading 5. Trouble 6. Violence At football i'm sure none of us want number 1 but as football fans we welcome number 2. Number 3 will appeal to many fans, because it is and always has been a way of relieving stresses of the working week. Some people will see 4 as acceptable, I don't but then again when the game has got passionate then I admit I too have engaged in the odd bit of verbal goading and inappropriate sign language. That probably makes me a hypocrite but it is rare and I do try to curtail it. That said, i'm a football fan so would rather 'goad' than be 'silent'. I think 5 (trouble 'rushing towards the front' etc) is unwelcome but I accept that this is something a football fan might do. But 6 is completely unacceptable to me. I don't want controls to be such that I sit there in silence every game. Likewise I don't want to witness violence. What I want is somewhere in between and at the moment I am happy that it's something that we've got both at The Meadow and in football in general. Sorry, but putting together a nice little scale of behaviour does not help your stance on the problems one bit. Do you not think that actions 3 and definitely 4 will lead to actions 5 and 6? And why is "rushing to the front" something a FOOTBALL FAN might do. No, its something a moron will do, or maybe if supporters sit in their seats at moments of high excitement, then they will be looked on as not real fans.If we all rushed to the front when a goal is scored i can see serious problems arising. How does this scale of behaviour appeal. 1. Sit 2. Applaud 3. Cheer 4.Sing Which lead to 5. HAPPY DAYS.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 20:24:31 GMT 1
Anyone who goes to a football match to cause trouble or causes trouble once at a match is scum IMO. No better than animals who need to grow up and learn how to handle their beer. I have sat in 19 once and can safely say that it is where the ignorant racist abusive element of STFCs 'support' sit, funny how that is in the closest position to the visitors. Shame the old bill didn't draw their battons to restore order that would have taught more lessons than a few arrests. SCUM THE WHOLE LOT OF THEM BLUE AND WHITE.
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Post by mikeinsheff2 on Nov 25, 2010 22:51:03 GMT 1
A bit irrelevant. Ever met Hull KR supporters? Think the reference was to rugby union, if it was watched recently and because it was referred to as "rugby" - a dead giveaway for the wrong version of the sport. I guessed that tbh. I`ve watched a fair bit of basketball live and the fans are well behaved (also irrelevant).
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Post by champagneprince on Nov 26, 2010 0:12:49 GMT 1
Sorry, but putting together a nice little scale of behaviour does not help your stance on the problems one bit . It wasn't meant to help my 'stance'. I don't have a 'stance' I have an opinion on the subject of behaviour in football grounds and have posted that opinion on here. It's just the way 'I see it' Do I want to argue the toss about it ? No. Is it worth arguing the toss about ? Errr, no. Do you not think that actions 3 and definitely 4 will lead to actions 5 and 6? Maybe, maybe not. And why is "rushing to the front" something a football FAN might do. Because that's the realism of it. It happens in every football ground in the country at some time or other. As I have said, I don't like it, but that IS what happens. No, its something a moron will do Of course ! Everyone can be moronic at times and football has always attracted people who can be more moronic than the average man. But that doesn't mean they're moronic all the time ! or maybe if supporters sit in their seats at moments of high excitement, then they will be looked on as not real fans. Who said that ? Certainly not me. A 'real fan' is somebody who supports the club through thick and thin. That person may well be someone who wants to sit in silence or may well be somebody who behaves moronically at times. I would say that the actions of the 'morons' and the actions of the silent have just as much negative effect on the club as each other. How many threads have we had about the lack of atmosphere ? How many fans have been lost because of it ? I would guess just as many as a bit of moronic behaviour. If we all rushed to the front when a goal is scored i can see serious problems arising. Yes, but that won't happen. We need to be realistic about these things. How does this scale of behaviour appeal. 1. Sit 2. Applaud 3. Cheer 4.Sing Which lead to 5. HAPPY DAYS. Love that, it sounds great. If the club added a standing area then even better (it's easier to applaud, cheer, sing when standing, I don't know why, I suppose that's just what i've been used to in my 40 odd years as a footie fan) Your scale sounds like a great target to aim for, but don't expect it to happen overnight, because this is football and it has always been a game that attracts a lot of passion which at times DOES overflow and become something else. But rarely these days does it escalate into violence. I wish football fans could behave like rugby fans, but they just don't. They never have, but they are getting better and one day who knows ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2010 0:45:06 GMT 1
Can't understand why acting like a moron/idiot is accepted because its behaviour that fans do, sometimes. If they don't act like morons away from the match, why do it at the match.
There is never going to be an "all quite" match, there will always be fans who make noise, cheer, clap, sing whatever, that is a realistic point of view. I don't think the quite have as much as a detrimental effect on the club as the actions of the moronic. My point of view based on what i have seen/heard over the years.
You views on designated standing areas..... oh yes please. Maybe that will happen sooner rather than later, but it seems that clubs provide the fans with what THEY think they want, rather than listening to them and providing what the fans actually want. The dissappointing part of Tuesdays match was the involvement of the younger fans. Its seems they have taken as their role models the idiots who cause the real trouble. Sad really, but that is why behaviour of this sort will never entirely end, its self generating.
Just the views of someone who, like you, watched football throughout the 70s/80s and a long time before then.
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Post by stockportershrew on Nov 26, 2010 0:45:50 GMT 1
I'd always thought that banter was supposed to be witty or amusing interchanges between people. Most of what is called banter at football grounds is usual inane chanting or people making obscene gestures.
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Post by champagneprince on Nov 26, 2010 1:36:37 GMT 1
Can't understand why acting like a moron/idiot is accepted because its behaviour that fans do, sometimes. If they don't act like morons away from the match, why do it at the match. There is never going to be an "all quite" match, there will always be fans who make noise, cheer, clap, sing whatever, that is a realistic point of view. I don't think the quite have as much as a detrimental effect on the club as the actions of the moronic. My point of view based on what i have seen/heard over the years. You views on designated standing areas..... oh yes please. Maybe that will happen sooner rather than later, but it seems that clubs provide the fans with what THEY think they want, rather than listening to them and providing what the fans actually want. The dissappointing part of Tuesdays match was the involvement of the younger fans. Its seems they have taken as their role models the idiots who cause the real trouble. Sad really, but that is why behaviour of this sort will never entirely end, its self generating. Just the views of someone who, like you, watched football throughout the 70s/80s and a long time before then. Agreed, but these may well be the same younger fans who cause problems in the schools and out of them. They exist in society and there are many reasons for their behaviour as we know. But the reality is that they are attracted to football, I don't know why, they just are. I'm not saying it's acceptable, just that it's the situation of where football currently is. Just to clarify, that I don't think anything worse than banter is acceptable and if you re-read my first post you'll see i've stated that. I agree about the 'not listening to the fans' bit but don't agree that goading and a bit of trouble (note:note violence), has more than a negative effect on the club than a stale atmosphere. I'm happy to be proved wrong on that one if anyone can find a decent article on it. I suppose as you say it's down to personal experience of which ours differs. I know people who have stopped going because of the lack of atmosphere but don't know anyone who has stopped going because of the goading and posturing of rival supporters. Violence however is a different story. I'm sure that watching blood spilt or getting attacked can have a lasting negative effect but I think that's rare nowadays.
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