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9/11
Sept 11, 2010 6:16:44 GMT 1
Post by froggy on Sept 11, 2010 6:16:44 GMT 1
Today is the anniversary of the 102 minutes that changed America. Lets all show some respect today by taking a minute of our time to think of those lives taken on the day. Remember those firemen who were extremely brave, walking into the 2nd building knowing it could fall down at any minute.
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9/11
Sept 11, 2010 9:31:07 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2010 9:31:07 GMT 1
an utterly shocking event, cant deny that. certainly one of the defining moments of the past 50 years.
however, a fraction of the number of innocents died in the twin towers than have done in palestine over the past 50 years.
5000 die in america and the world stops and pays their respects, 500,000 die in the gaza strip and no one gives a s**t.
9/11 should be remembered, but as much for the day the consequences of american foreign policy came home to roost as anything else.
and yes, i pay my respects to the brave men and women who died trying to rescue those trapped. i hope their sacrifice isnt in vein and they are not forgotten.
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9/11
Sept 11, 2010 11:36:06 GMT 1
Post by ratcliffesghost on Sept 11, 2010 11:36:06 GMT 1
I refuse point blank to adopt any Americanisms thank you.
But respect to those who lost their lives or relatives on 11/9
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9/11
Sept 11, 2010 11:49:12 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2010 11:49:12 GMT 1
A defining monet for Iraqis who were merely minding their own business trying to get by in a society and crumbling econom dominated by an egotistical aging dictator. Now they are trying to pick up the pieces of a broken country riven by nigh on civil war, suicide bombings, a foreign invasion force and ****ed infrastructure.
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, hundred/thousands of soldiers severely injured and killed.
Yes a grave act of terrorism, but of greater importance was the change in American foreign policy that came into force after the act.
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9/11
Sept 11, 2010 12:08:48 GMT 1
Post by eclipsechaser on Sept 11, 2010 12:08:48 GMT 1
Anybody burning any books today ?
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9/11
Sept 11, 2010 12:18:01 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2010 12:18:01 GMT 1
Anybody burning any books today ? yep, the weightwitchers guide to healthy eating. nothing to do whatsoever with the topic in hand, just great tunes.
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9/11
Sept 11, 2010 12:53:25 GMT 1
Post by eclipsechaser on Sept 11, 2010 12:53:25 GMT 1
To add to the fire , could i suggest some other books to put on the pile ?
Gary Peters guide to Man Management . Paul Simpsons guide to Second Half Substitutions ? Paul Simpsons , How to Make Friends with Your Fans ? Gary Peters , Hoof the Ball and Win ! Paul Simpsons , Now for Plan B ! Roland Wycherleys , How to Waste 40 Grand on a Useless Logo . Paul Simpsons Classic , Nathan Elder ... Why ? Matt Redmiles , How to Defend ? Chris Humphreys , Running Fast is all you Need to do !
any others to add ?
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9/11
Sept 11, 2010 22:20:27 GMT 1
Post by froggy on Sept 11, 2010 22:20:27 GMT 1
an utterly shocking event, cant deny that. certainly one of the defining moments of the past 50 years. however, a fraction of the number of innocents died in the twin towers than have done in palestine over the past 50 years. 5000 die in america and the world stops and pays their respects, 500,000 die in the gaza strip and no one gives a s**t. 9/11 should be remembered, but as much for the day the consequences of american foreign policy came home to roost as anything else. and yes, i pay my respects to the brave men and women who died trying to rescue those trapped. i hope their sacrifice isnt in vein and they are not forgotten. I'm of the same opinion Matron, but I didn't want to voice it over the net as I didn't want to offend people. You're quite right in what you say, i'm not fond of the American's myself. Nobody mentiones the hundreds of thousands dying in India through the chemicals spilt by the Americans, nor the Viatnamese families who have mutations because of cluster/other bombs and finally, the families and innocents of those civilians brutally murdered by teh Americans in Iraq/Afghanistahn. But, I do think of the relatives of those who lost their lives all those years ago.
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9/11
Sept 11, 2010 22:27:34 GMT 1
Post by WindsorShrew on Sept 11, 2010 22:27:34 GMT 1
I was going to burn Mr Blairs book "The Journey" but couldn't find it under autobiography's, it was later I realized it was obviously in the War Crimes Section.
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 10:52:32 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2010 10:52:32 GMT 1
I was going to burn Mr Blairs book "The Journey" but couldn't find it under autobiography's, it was later I realized it was obviously in the War Crimes Section. laugh? oh s**t, i think my sides have split
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 13:41:01 GMT 1
Post by WindsorShrew on Sept 12, 2010 13:41:01 GMT 1
I was going to burn Mr Blairs book "The Journey" but couldn't find it under autobiography's, it was later I realized it was obviously in the War Crimes Section. laugh? oh s**t, i think my sides have split Must have taken some time buddy, I mean thats a lot of splitting.........
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 16:54:19 GMT 1
Post by champagneprince on Sept 12, 2010 16:54:19 GMT 1
Definitely one of the defining moments of the 21st century. A truly shocking, appalling event that has put us all under an 'apparent' invisible threat of which we were previously unaware was such a problem.
As a country we have been used to terrorist activities because of the IRA in the 70's and 80's, but we knew the reasons for that even if we didn't really understand them or agreed with them. With the Al'Queda attack it was more of a surprise and trying to understand why has been difficult to this day. I don't think many Westerners at the time thought that the USA was 'getting what it deserved', but many now do.
Sometimes you have to fight when it becomes inevitable or even if it's felt that 'no action' would mean a much worse place for us all to live. We can only guess what world we might be living in if we had let Iraq ocupy Kuwait or we hadn't disposed of Saddam. And on that note I think you can only rely on the advice given by your intelligent agencies as to whether you accept or make a stand.
Sadaam chanced his arm many times and eventually DID invade Kuwait. No idea what his reasoning was but oil is an obvious conclusion to make. Lets face it if he had been allowed to get away with it he would of continued to invade other countries possibly even Israel, leading to god knows what and at the very least the spiralling oil prices would of been way beyond the high prices we endure today.
The Allies forced him out but The Middle East was brought home to us and became very real. What happened next was a steady build up of hatred towards the West and it's continued support of Israel hasn't helped either.
That said, it still came as a major shock to me that the hatred had grown to such an extent that a terrorist organisation was able to become so sophisticated so as to plan, finance and initiate such a devastating attack.
The people who were affected by those attacks were truly innocent as are many caught in conflicts all over the World. We should make time to pay respects to them all but on 9/11 we pay respects to those who died on that particular day.
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 18:52:10 GMT 1
Post by stuttgartershrew on Sept 12, 2010 18:52:10 GMT 1
The people who were affected by those attacks were truly innocent as are many caught in conflicts all over the World. We should make time to pay respects to them all but on 9/11 we pay respects to those who died on that particular day. Why? Why only those who died on that day? Maybe some folk can look at things in isolation but I can't...
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 19:33:55 GMT 1
Post by WindsorShrew on Sept 12, 2010 19:33:55 GMT 1
IMO Without doubt messers Blair and Bush have truly opened a can of worms with their actions, initially with Iraq and latterly Afghanistan.
These wars and what is difficult for many to grasp are about culture change, it is readily apparent that the intention was to oust in the first instance Saddam (regime change) and secondly the Taliban. We ( I hate saying that in this text) then thought we could implement a nice western style democracy in both countries supported of course by the west which would become a stable platform in a turbulent region.
We also supported the hanging of men, we were also complicit with the torture of both British and foreign subjects.
Going back to the issue of culture change, the interpretation by the populace and of many in surrounding states was that the war was on the Muslims thus the Muslim faith. Who can blame them foreign armies invading...leaders toppled...we of course call those fighting against us insurgents. This is to indicate that they are a type of terrorist from other (Muslim) states, you would be wrong to think this is the case entirely. Many insurgents are nationals of either Iraq or Afghanistan simply trying to oust the foreign invader.
I defy any person to prove that Iraq and Afghanistan proved a threat to this country at all let alone one worth going to war for.
When we pull out of Afghanistan which we surely will due to either lack of public support, body-count or finances I assure you it will not be a victory. We will be responsible for all that happens in both Iraq and Afghanistan in the future.
The Arab world does not forget easily, the state of Israel a western style state inserted into the Arabic world by western powers still has vast issues with all of its neighbours. Our part in the creation of Israel is not forgotten.
It is of course tragic that thousands of Americans died on that day and that Britons suffered a similar if not lesser event. Yet not lets forget over 100,000 Muslims have perished since the onset of our invasions.
One thing is certain without doubt these ill thought out conflicts pose a greater threat to the safety of our country and integration than ever existed before. 9/11 is merely a part of a large and evolving jigsaw.
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 19:37:35 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2010 19:37:35 GMT 1
The people who were affected by those attacks were truly innocent as are many caught in conflicts all over the World. We should make time to pay respects to them all but on 9/11 we pay respects to those who died on that particular day. ok lets have everyones nominations for which day of the year we should commemorate the "slow but sure holocaust of the Palestinians" day.
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 19:48:52 GMT 1
Post by shrewsace on Sept 12, 2010 19:48:52 GMT 1
laugh? oh s**t, i think my sides have split Must have taken some time buddy, I mean thats a lot of splitting......... Blair supports the coalition and approves of their cuts. No need to defend him, he's one of them and always has been.
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 20:36:43 GMT 1
Post by eclipsechaser on Sept 12, 2010 20:36:43 GMT 1
IMO Without doubt messers Blair and Bush have truly opened a can of worms with their actions, initially with Iraq and latterly Afghanistan. These wars and what is difficult for many to grasp are about culture change, it is readily apparent that the intention was to oust in the first instance Saddam (regime change) and secondly the Taliban. We ( I hate saying that in this text) then thought we could implement a nice western style democracy in both countries supported of course by the west which would become a stable platform in a turbulent region. We also supported the hanging of men, we were also complicit with the torture of both British and foreign subjects. Going back to the issue of culture change, the interpretation by the populace and of many in surrounding states was that the war was on the Muslims thus the Muslim faith. Who can blame them foreign armies invading...leaders toppled...we of course call those fighting against us insurgents. This is to indicate that they are a type of terrorist from other (Muslim) states, you would be wrong to think this is the case entirely. Many insurgents are nationals of either Iraq or Afghanistan simply trying to oust the foreign invader. I defy any person to prove that Iraq and Afghanistan proved a threat to this country at all let alone one worth going to war for. When we pull out of Afghanistan which we surely will due to either lack of public support, body-count or finances I assure you it will not be a victory. We will be responsible for all that happens in both Iraq and Afghanistan in the future. The Arab world does not forget easily, the state of Israel a western style state inserted into the Arabic world by western powers still has vast issues with all of its neighbours. Our part in the creation of Israel is not forgotten. It is of course tragic that thousands of Americans died on that day and that Britons suffered a similar if not lesser event. Yet not lets forget over 100,000 Muslims have perished since the onset of our invasions. One thing is certain without doubt these ill thought out conflicts pose a greater threat to the safety of our country and integration than ever existed before. 9/11 is merely a part of a large and evolving jigsaw. So , out of interest would you still want the Taliban to be governing Aghanistan ? Have you watched any loosechange.com documentaries about 9/1 ? opinions ?
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 20:50:15 GMT 1
Post by WindsorShrew on Sept 12, 2010 20:50:15 GMT 1
So , out of interest would you still want the Taliban to be governing Aghanistan ? Have you watched any loosechange.com documentaries about 9/1 ? opinions ? I don't care who rules in Afghanistan. Secondly I did watch a documentry on 9/11 last week.
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 21:10:07 GMT 1
Post by eclipsechaser on Sept 12, 2010 21:10:07 GMT 1
the docs. were on the internet .
It makes very interesting viewing . I think it would give you a lot to think about .
and
Would you rather the bombs be exploding on our buses and tube trains rather than in Afghanistan ?
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 21:22:04 GMT 1
Post by WindsorShrew on Sept 12, 2010 21:22:04 GMT 1
the docs. were on the internet . It makes very interesting viewing . I think it would give you a lot to think about . and Would you rather the bombs be exploding on our buses and tube trains rather than in Afghanistan ? I will have a look at them tomorrow. To answer the second question I would rather no bombs explode anywhere, the bus bombs over here or the 500lb RAF bombs over there.
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 21:25:03 GMT 1
Post by froggy on Sept 12, 2010 21:25:03 GMT 1
Would you rather the bombs be exploding on our buses and tube trains rather than in Afghanistan ? I'd rather them here ... 8,813 civillians killed in afghanistan by the war on terror and 864,531 equally innocent civillians killed in iraq by the U.S and allied invasion. This is compared to how many that were killed on 7/07? Its a small number, you can't wish it happen somewhere else instead of your own country.
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 21:31:18 GMT 1
Post by eclipsechaser on Sept 12, 2010 21:31:18 GMT 1
Do you think that if we showed Last Night at the Proms in Afghanistan and Iraq and they learnt the words to ' Jerusalem ' that it would bring peace ?
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9/11
Sept 12, 2010 21:36:01 GMT 1
Post by froggy on Sept 12, 2010 21:36:01 GMT 1
Do you think that if we showed Last Night at the Proms in Afghanistan and Iraq and they learnt the words to ' Jerusalem ' that it would bring peace ? Peace in their country? Sorry, I thought this war was between America and Afghanistan with us interjecting as usual. I didn't think their was ever a threat from the middle-east toward us. People in this country are sucked in by the government who try to scare us all. Its all a matter of control from the government, they scare us making us think the middle east all want to kill us, how ironic is that, their leaders did the same thing but about the western world. I'd rather show them Jerusalem at the proms to promote peace than kill eight hundred thousand innocent people, i know which one would create less hatred!
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9/11
Sept 13, 2010 21:00:49 GMT 1
Post by rowleylegend on Sept 13, 2010 21:00:49 GMT 1
9/11 was without doubt the second worst act of terrorism of the 21st century, just lacking behind George Bush acts of genocide in Iraq and Afgan which also brung Britain into the war on terror.
It feels weird how time has passed so quickly, 9 years since the event and it was so memorable i can remember watching it unfold on television as if it was yesterday, forcing the taliban onto the backfoot was maybe seen as a good move at the time but due to this one act Goverments has thrown our troops into danger.
9/11 is a constant reminder of what could happen and the world we now live in, it gave the powers that be a reason to go to war, it was a win-win situation for Bush and the taliban.
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9/11
Sept 14, 2010 10:12:34 GMT 1
Post by Amsterdammer on Sept 14, 2010 10:12:34 GMT 1
IMO Iraq and Afghanistan were totally different wars and we have Bush/Blair to thank for mixing the two in people's conscience.
Afghanistan was harbouring terrorists and training camps including the 'masterminds' of 9/11, the Taliban (look them up), there was already a civil war there so it was hardly a peaceful country before. Did the war make us safer and will it improve the lifes of the Afghan people? I think you can make a pretty strong case for it.
Iraq was nothing like this and the motivation to intervene was fuelled by total different motives. I would even say, Iraq posed no threat to us. Saddam was a nasty piece of work, but the justification for intervention by us was/is patchy.
Don't make the same mistake as Bush/Blair and mix the two.
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9/11
Sept 14, 2010 15:08:37 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2010 15:08:37 GMT 1
hindsight is a wonderfull tool.
My girlfriends parents and grandma, all of who were forced to leave Iraq in the 1970s believe that the country is far worse now than it ever was under SH.
I'm sure there are plenty of others who hold this opinion.
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9/11
Sept 14, 2010 15:56:29 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2010 15:56:29 GMT 1
hindsight is a wonderfull tool. My girlfriends parents and grandma, all of who were forced to leave Iraq in the 1970s believe that the country is far worse now than it ever was under SH. I'm sure there are plenty of others who hold this opinion. and as (i assume) iraqis, its a usefull perspective to have in a debate like this. can i ask a couple of questions though, why where they forced to leave iraq? what is their opinion of the gasing to death of 5000 kurbs by SH? In the 1970s, SH was "only just getting going", in fact, if what i understand is correct ( ) he didnt get any real power (prime minister or president, or even leader of the Ba ath party)until 1979.
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9/11
Sept 14, 2010 17:08:29 GMT 1
Post by thebosun on Sept 14, 2010 17:08:29 GMT 1
surely a matron ought to be able to spell vain!
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9/11
Sept 14, 2010 18:48:28 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2010 18:48:28 GMT 1
Indeed he was hoovering up power in the later 70s.
Not Sure what the beef was, think it was to do with their background (the part of Iraq that they came from), i know her grandma is a very sucessful business lady.
I've a good friend who's parents and grandma were also forced to leave Iraq (Kurdish Iraqis), the grandma was a prominant journalist, the father a doctor who was instructed to overlook the numbers of dead opposition passing through his hospital....
For both, its safe to say that they thought SH was scum, a man driven by ego and like most dicators overseeing rank inequality and epic corruption, but at least there was an element of law and order, the average Iraqi could keep their head down and try and get on with life. And as strange as it sounds, at least it was being done by one of their own...
However the chasim that has opend up in place of SH means corruption, self-interest and inequality are still present in massive quantities, however any pretence to law and order has largely gone by the wayside. The father of one of my friends who went back to collect a family airloom was actually caught up in a suicide bomb, which I guess just sums it up really... the ****ing thing wasn't even reported in the British media!
As for the Kurds... that is a whole different issue, completely wrong, but lets not forget SH dished out the jail time and death sentences to many different people during his time. Rightly or wrongly there is some frcition with regards to Kurds and in comparison, anythingup to 1,000,000 Iraqi deaths since we invaded and to cap it off many an Iraqi would argue that we are still violating the country all in the name of... (oil?)
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9/11
Sept 14, 2010 19:08:05 GMT 1
Post by shrew4life on Sept 14, 2010 19:08:05 GMT 1
hindsight is a wonderfull tool. My girlfriends parents and grandma, all of who were forced to leave Iraq in the 1970s believe that the country is far worse now than it ever was under SH. I'm sure there are plenty of others who hold this opinion. I' be more interested to know if the people who actually live there now feel that way.
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