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Post by neilsalop on Aug 24, 2010 2:08:55 GMT 1
www.skysports.com/opinion/story/0,25212,16708_6331511,00.html Does anyone really think this is the way forward? I know many other countries have foreign born players in their national teams, but I can't see how this can be a good thing. How long before every national side is made up predominantly with imports? How can he justifiably change his allegiance to another country and play for them, just because he isn't deemed worthy of a place in his own national side?
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Post by froggy on Aug 24, 2010 5:23:30 GMT 1
Don't see the problem with it myself England cricket team is full up of Pakistani, Indian, South African players .... Its bound to happen in footy eventually.
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Post by heavenlyshrew on Aug 24, 2010 7:17:19 GMT 1
www.skysports.com/opinion/story/0,25212,16708_6331511,00.html Does anyone really think this is the way forward? I know many other countries have foreign born players in their national teams, but I can't see how this can be a good thing. How long before every national side is made up predominantly with imports? How can he justifiably change his allegiance to another country and play for them, just because he isn't deemed worthy of a place in his own national side? And you said i was wrong about immigrants
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Post by jamo on Aug 24, 2010 7:55:17 GMT 1
Not for me.
Would rather try, and fail with a team of nationals than use mercenarys.
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Post by neilsalop on Aug 24, 2010 8:16:17 GMT 1
Thank the Lord. After all these years I actually make a post that Jamo agrees with
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Post by Ned on Aug 24, 2010 10:09:44 GMT 1
They were discussing this on 606 on Sunday evening.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Aug 24, 2010 10:22:47 GMT 1
No problem with it whatsoever. If he has taken up British citizenship, as is his right, then why not use him. Other countries do it. Other countries like Ireland have used the grand-parents rule to their advantage in the past to recruit players with no real connection to their country. England have had non-British born players before (John Barnes, Owen Hargreaves) but perhaps because of Commonwealth connections or English-sounding names nobody really questioned their selection. Albeit as an immigrant worker, with his time in the SPL before and his now fairly long service at Everton, Arteta has spent a decent proportion of his life living in the UK. If he now considers it a honor to represent his adopted home then I wholeheartedly welcome him and hope Fabio selects him.
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Post by africanshrew on Aug 24, 2010 10:36:58 GMT 1
Tricky one. If a young kid came over from some worn-torn nation seeking asylum, turned into an amazing player and wanted to repay the country which has become his home it's a bit different from someone fancying being English to play in a World Cup. For me John Barnes (born in Jamaica) is 100% English, Arteta well i'm not so sure. Perhaps the rule should be that you must have played U-19 level footie in this country.
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Post by onthetrain92 on Aug 24, 2010 10:58:00 GMT 1
Mikael is more than qualified under the rules to now play for England as much as i dislike the way people come here a claim citizenship its isn't gonna change, so i suggest take advantage of the situation and imprevise. Welcome to England Mikael, Spains lost is England's gain.
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Post by monkee on Aug 24, 2010 11:05:44 GMT 1
No problem with it whatsoever. If he has taken up British citizenship, as is his right, then why not use him. Other countries do it. Other countries like Ireland have used the grand-parents rule to their advantage in the past to recruit players with no real connection to their country. England have had non-British born players before (John Barnes, Owen Hargreaves) but perhaps because of Commonwealth connections or English-sounding names nobody really questioned their selection. Albeit as an immigrant worker, with his time in the SPL before and his now fairly long service at Everton, Arteta has spent a decent proportion of his life living in the UK. If he now considers it a honor to represent his adopted home then I wholeheartedly welcome him and hope Fabio selects him. good post funny how many supposedly enlightened posters turn into little englanders when it comes to sport.
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Post by africanshrew on Aug 24, 2010 11:22:40 GMT 1
No problem with it whatsoever. If he has taken up British citizenship, as is his right, then why not use him. Other countries do it. Other countries like Ireland have used the grand-parents rule to their advantage in the past to recruit players with no real connection to their country. England have had non-British born players before (John Barnes, Owen Hargreaves) but perhaps because of Commonwealth connections or English-sounding names nobody really questioned their selection. Albeit as an immigrant worker, with his time in the SPL before and his now fairly long service at Everton, Arteta has spent a decent proportion of his life living in the UK. If he now considers it a honor to represent his adopted home then I wholeheartedly welcome him and hope Fabio selects him. good post funny how many supposedly enlightened posters turn into little englanders when it comes to sport. To be fair, there's a genuine debate to be had - I think it's nothing to do with Little Englander views (which certainly do crop up on other posts). Qualification rules for sport are different from residency or citizenship therefore one doesn't necessarily equate to the other.
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Post by monkee on Aug 24, 2010 12:11:54 GMT 1
good post funny how many supposedly enlightened posters turn into little englanders when it comes to sport. To be fair, there's a genuine debate to be had - I think it's nothing to do with Little Englander views (which certainly do crop up on other posts). Qualification rules for sport are different from residency or citizenship therefore one doesn't necessarily equate to the other. just having a little
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Post by neilsalop on Aug 24, 2010 12:15:42 GMT 1
[ good post funny how many supposedly enlightened posters turn into little englanders when it comes to sport. Nothing to do with being a 'little englander', but more about protecting our sportsmen and women and allowing them the dream of representing their country. If Arteta is picked for England that leaves one less place in the squad for a young English player. What if Capello had decided to pick Almunia as GK and Joe Hart was deprived of his chance to play, never mind the £500k for Salop, what about his chances to move forward in the game? There are plenty of 'mercenaries' as Jamo called them in the domestic game depriving talented young British players their chance, without them taking up the option to play international football for their 'new' country. Would Arteta or Almunia have taken the option to play for Spain 2 years ago or have they been waiting to get British citizenship so they could play for England? Would Poland have qualified for the world cup if they had not lost the likes of Podolski and Klose to the Germans? Would Germany even have qualified for the WC without their imported players? How can Croatia justifiably have a Brazilian player in their team? How many different nationalities played for France over the last few years? If these players aren't good enough to be picked for their own national teams, why should they be allowed to change their allegiance and conversely if they think that their home country isn't good enough for them why should they be able to qualify to play for a better country with a better chance of winning something? As I said 'nothing to do with being a little englander', just trying to keep a level playing field and giving every player the best chance to play for their country of birth. Just because other countries have done it in the past and continue to do it today, doesn't make it right. If Capello does pick Arteta many English football supporters will no longer follow the national team.
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Post by captainpike on Aug 24, 2010 12:17:00 GMT 1
Tricky one. If a young kid came over from some worn-torn nation seeking asylum, turned into an amazing player and wanted to repay the country which has become his home it's a bit different from someone fancying being English to play in a World Cup. For me John Barnes (born in Jamaica) is 100% English, Arteta well i'm not so sure. Perhaps the rule should be that you must have played U-19 level footie in this country. Yeah I agree. Like in athletics Mo Farah came from Somalia and it was through sport that he found sanctuary in his new country and now considers himself as British as he is Somali. But then there's the 400m guy who is American with a British father but only got rushed through becoming a citizen so he could compete at a major event. He doesn't even live in this country, prefering to stay in America. So out of the two I'd take Mo Farah every day of the week as the American seems to be just hopping on board to be able to compete at the major games. Whereas someone like Greg Rusedski came over to Britain and became a fully fledged Anglophile and so engratiated himself with the general public.
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Post by Amsterdammer on Aug 24, 2010 12:25:11 GMT 1
Sounds like what we need is a panel formed of, say 5, fans who interview Arteta and conclude if he is doing it for the right reasons (like not wanting to risk his life in "war torn" Jamaica) and then advise Mr Capello if he should pick him.
Or we just apply the FIFA rules, meaning Arteta can play if he wants to and Capello picks him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2010 12:41:35 GMT 1
If Capello does pick Arteta many English football supporters will no longer follow the national team. Arguably the most important position at International level is the manager, and ours is Italian. When the debate over the likes of Arteta is brought up, legitimately, why are similar debates not held about Capello (or Sven before him)?
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Post by penza on Aug 24, 2010 12:50:53 GMT 1
Intresting thread this, seems to divide opinions.
For me i have no problem with this, think its a really good thing for the national team. Teams like Portugal have a number of Brazilans in there national team. Quite a few of the french team are actually african but qualify to play for france. As with Germany, they have Ozil, a star of the last world cup, he is Turkish. Podolski, he is polish, Kadira another star for the Germans in the world cup, he is also Turkish.
If other countries are doing this i dont understand why it should be a problem. Spain is the only national side that Arteta could not get into, he is a class player and would be fantastic for England IMO.
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Post by neilsalop on Aug 24, 2010 12:54:07 GMT 1
Arguably the most important position at International level is the manager, and ours is Italian. When the debate over the likes of Arteta is brought up, legitimately, why are similar debates not held about Capello (or Sven before him)? If Capello were to lead England to a successful tournament and prove his worth as a manager he could well go on to one day manage Italy. If Arteta plays for England once he can never play for anyone else. That's the difference. FWIW I really rate Arteta as a player and Everton really missed him when he out with injury last season, but he isn't English and his inclusion in the squad would deprive players like Adam Johnson, Jack Wilshire etc of the opportunity to play for their country. If Spain don't want him, it's a shame, but why should England be a second route into international football for someone that isn't deemed good enough to play for his own country.
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Post by monkee on Aug 24, 2010 12:54:50 GMT 1
[ good post funny how many supposedly enlightened posters turn into little englanders when it comes to sport. Nothing to do with being a 'little englander', but more about protecting our sportsmen and women and allowing them the dream of representing their country. If Arteta is picked for England that leaves one less place in the squad for a young English player. What if Capello had decided to pick Almunia as GK and Joe Hart was deprived of his chance to play, never mind the £500k for Salop, what about his chances to move forward in the game? There are plenty of 'mercenaries' as Jamo called them in the domestic game depriving talented young British players their chance, without them taking up the option to play international football for their 'new' country. Would Arteta or Almunia have taken the option to play for Spain 2 years ago or have they been waiting to get British citizenship so they could play for England? Would Poland have qualified for the world cup if they had not lost the likes of Podolski and Klose to the Germans? Would Germany even have qualified for the WC without their imported players? How can Croatia justifiably have a Brazilian player in their team? How many different nationalities played for France over the last few years? If these players aren't good enough to be picked for their own national teams, why should they be allowed to change their allegiance and conversely if they think that their home country isn't good enough for them why should they be able to qualify to play for a better country with a better chance of winning something? As I said 'nothing to do with being a little englander', just trying to keep a level playing field and giving every player the best chance to play for their country of birth. Just because other countries have done it in the past and continue to do it today, doesn't make it right. If Capello does pick Arteta many English football supporters will no longer follow the national team. wasnt referring to you , i said enlightened
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Post by mrbunny on Aug 24, 2010 13:00:27 GMT 1
He is better than any creative player we have so i'd welcome him into the side.
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Post by neilsalop on Aug 24, 2010 13:02:47 GMT 1
wasnt referring to you , i said enlightened Sorry must have missed that bit Now where's that one fingered smilie?? Never mind, please refer to my avatar for my snappy comeback
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Post by stfcfan87 on Aug 24, 2010 13:05:44 GMT 1
Arguably the most important position at International level is the manager, and ours is Italian. When the debate over the likes of Arteta is brought up, legitimately, why are similar debates not held about Capello (or Sven before him)? If Capello were to lead England to a successful tournament and prove his worth as a manager he could well go on to one day manage Italy. If Arteta plays for England once he can never play for anyone else. That's the difference. FWIW I really rate Arteta as a player and Everton really missed him when he out with injury last season, but he isn't English and his inclusion in the squad would deprive players like Adam Johnson, Jack Wilshire etc of the opportunity to play for their country. If Spain don't want him, it's a shame, but why should England be a second route into international football for someone that isn't deemed good enough to play for his own country. Don't quite get your point on how Arteta would deprive players of the opportunity to play for their country - the continual picking of lampard and gerrard together when it's been proven for years to be ineffective is also doing the same. I wouldn't really have a problem with Arteta being picked. Lets face it, he's by no means a mercenary having been playing in this country, and before that Scotland, for the vast majority of his career, he's not been capped by Spain either. Put it this way I don't see any fuss being made about Steve Morrison being picked for Wales despite being English, or Matt Gilks being called up by Scotland. John Barnes was born in Jamaica, Terry Butcher was I think born in Singapore. As long as Arteta has qualified, demonstrates a desire to play for us, is going to improve them team and can speak the language i'd have no problems with this. He's more qualified than Capello. As I side point one of the people against this was Mark Lawrenson, the preston born player he spent his entire career in England who decided to represent Republic of Ireland.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Aug 24, 2010 13:10:47 GMT 1
If any player is good enough to play for england and eligible to play for england he should play.
If he is granted citizenship then he is a citizen and will not be blocking an "English" player coming through because no-one can be more english than a citizen.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2010 13:11:08 GMT 1
Arguably the most important position at International level is the manager, and ours is Italian. When the debate over the likes of Arteta is brought up, legitimately, why are similar debates not held about Capello (or Sven before him)? If Capello were to lead England to a successful tournament and prove his worth as a manager he could well go on to one day manage Italy. If Arteta plays for England once he can never play for anyone else. That's the difference. It may be a difference but not the reason per your first post as to why Arteta shouldn't be picked. I don't understand the opposition to Arteta/ foreign born players but not to a foreign born manager?
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Post by neilsalop on Aug 24, 2010 13:21:00 GMT 1
OK. I concede that there are a lot of people on here that would be quite happy to have Arteta playing for England. Question is how many non English players are you prepared to accept into the team?
3?
5?
11?
The full squad of 23?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Aug 24, 2010 13:28:38 GMT 1
Question is how many non English players are you prepared to accept into the team? But you can't have anon English player playing for England. Anyone eligible, is, by very nature English.
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Post by penza on Aug 24, 2010 13:38:59 GMT 1
OK. I concede that there are a lot of people on here that would be quite happy to have Arteta playing for England. Question is how many non English players are you prepared to accept into the team? 3? 5? 11? The full squad of 23? There isnt going to be a huge number of players that are good enough to play for England but not good enough to get into a single squad of there own nation. Like i said earlier in the thread, Arteta would get into any other national side apart from Spain.
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Post by monkee on Aug 24, 2010 13:47:12 GMT 1
wasnt referring to you , i said enlightened Sorry must have missed that bit Now where's that one fingered smilie?? Never mind, please refer to my avatar for my snappy comeback joking aside, i do share the worry about "home grown" players not getting the chance if this sort of thing happens, but artete has been trained elsewhere so we get a freebie. the real issue for me is why is our training so poor that we need to take second rate ,non "home grown " players from other countries.
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Post by eggyshrew on Aug 24, 2010 13:52:40 GMT 1
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Aug 24, 2010 15:06:34 GMT 1
Other sports have a tradition of allowing non English people represent the National team, Ranjitsinge (sp?) in cricket for example.
Football does not, so it makes the idea harder to accept, for me anyway. However, if Arteta became a British citizen surely he is entitled to play for his adopted country.
Incidently, I had to laugh at Preston born Mark Lawrenson dismissing the prospect on MotD - who did he play International football for?
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