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Post by captainpike on May 19, 2010 20:10:40 GMT 1
mrbunny, you never said what you think about the (likely) potential of criminalising young men (and women) for the rest of their lives by slinging them in jail for 5 years for carrying a knife? Why are they carrying a knife in the first place? Serves them right if they get caught and are stuffed. That's a very shallow view of the problem. Why does a junkie rob houses? To fund a habit, so the best course of action is to tackle the addiction. People carry knives because they feel forced into it via peer pressure and / or they feel unsafe because other people have one etc. The problem is the gang culture itself which comes from the disconnection of youth from society. As I pointed out earlier, by slinging people straight into jail for something that is the result of a problem rather than the mere cause is likely to lead them into a cycle of reoffending. Thus creating a criminal by trying to do the exact oppostie.
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Post by Dont believe the HYPE on May 19, 2010 20:23:50 GMT 1
Why are they carrying a knife in the first place? Serves them right if they get caught and are stuffed. That's a very shallow view of the problem. Why does a junkie rob houses? To fund a habit, so the best course of action is to tackle the addiction. People carry knives because they feel forced into it via peer pressure and / or they feel unsafe because other people have one etc. The problem is the gang culture itself which comes from the disconnection of youth from society. As I pointed out earlier, by slinging people straight into jail for something that is the result of a problem rather than the mere cause is likely to lead them into a cycle of reoffending. Thus creating a criminal by trying to do the exact oppostie. Well thought out response and eloquently argued. Complete tosh mind
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Post by El Presidente on May 19, 2010 20:28:55 GMT 1
Why are they carrying a knife in the first place? Serves them right if they get caught and are stuffed. That's a very shallow view of the problem. Why does a junkie rob houses? To fund a habit, so the best course of action is to tackle the addiction. People carry knives because they feel forced into it via peer pressure and / or they feel unsafe because other people have one etc. The problem is the gang culture itself which comes from the disconnection of youth from society. As I pointed out earlier, by slinging people straight into jail for something that is the result of a problem rather than the mere cause is likely to lead them into a cycle of reoffending. Thus creating a criminal by trying to do the exact oppostie. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/8691903.stmThe police and MH teams intervened 3 times with this fellow for carrying a knife in a public place before he stabbed to death a pregnant young woman...would he have been able to do this had he been in jail? I agree intervention is appropriate in some case, but in others we need to stop pussyfooting around and deliver appropriate punishments...
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Post by SY3 on May 19, 2010 20:31:35 GMT 1
Why are they carrying a knife in the first place? Serves them right if they get caught and are stuffed. That's a very shallow view of the problem. Why does a junkie rob houses? To fund a habit, so the best course of action is to tackle the addiction. People carry knives because they feel forced into it via peer pressure and / or they feel unsafe because other people have one etc. The problem is the gang culture itself which comes from the disconnection of youth from society. As I pointed out earlier, by slinging people straight into jail for something that is the result of a problem rather than the mere cause is likely to lead them into a cycle of reoffending. Thus creating a criminal by trying to do the exact oppostie. I don't agree in this particular case, i have never carried a knife, and to actually plunge one into another human being, well you must have a screw loose. Tough punishment is required here to act as some kind of deterrent also because the lad bloody deserves it. We all know the rules in life, peer pressure doesn't wash with me.
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Post by SY3 on May 19, 2010 20:32:12 GMT 1
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/8691903.stmThe police and MH teams intervened 3 times with this fellow for carrying a knife in a public place before he stabbed to death a pregnant young woman...would he have been able to do this had he been in jail? I agree intervention is appropriate in some case, but in others we need to stop pussyfooting around and deliver appropriate punishments... Duely exalted.
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Post by captainpike on May 19, 2010 20:40:25 GMT 1
Gang culture is prevelent where whole communties are cast adrift from society with little in the way of job opportunities or education. People become detacthed and feel abandoned and worthless, joining a gang offers them identity.
Carrying knives is something akin to the cold war arms race - if one does it the others must follow. But imposing harsh penalties on those carrying will not deter them as they don't see much in their future to make them think they will be throwing anything away.
The way to stop gangs and therefore the rise of carrying knives and more extreme weapons is by putting money into the communities where it is rife. Only by giving young people the carat of a better future will they not feel abandoned by the rest of society...which is pretty much universally accepted as the root cause and the main problem.
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Post by mrbunny on May 19, 2010 20:45:19 GMT 1
Omar i'd quit while you are behind if i were you.
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Post by captainpike on May 19, 2010 20:47:01 GMT 1
"The police and MH teams intervened 3 times with this fellow for carrying a knife in a public place before he stabbed to death a pregnant young woman...would he have been able to do this had he been in jail?"
I agree there has to be a deterrent, but the bare facts are that 68% of first time offenders reoffend. So surely that points to a failing of the people who are being sent to jail. They are not sent there to merely rot away, it is supposed to be a tool for correcting someone's behaviour.
What if your son was a good kid but got caught up in a gang and felt he had to carry a knife as he felt unsafe, as happens. He then gets caught, banged-up for 5 years and from then on continues to reoffend when before he was not a criminal - just a scared kid caught wup in the wrong crowd.
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Post by El Presidente on May 19, 2010 20:57:11 GMT 1
I understand your point Omar, but clearly the current system is not working where if you're under 18 you receive: A warning; a final warning; a police caution; then off to Magistrates Court for a fine and community order...by which time the kid has already earned kudos in the gang for usurping the authorities... Each case should be judged on its merrits, but if knife and gun crime continues to escalate, we'll be routinely arming our police forces rapido, then you'll have all sorts of different arguments and concerns. More community diversions, coupled with credible punishments for transgression ...
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Post by captainpike on May 19, 2010 21:02:02 GMT 1
I understand your point Omar, but clearly the current system is not working where if you're under 18 you receive: A warning; a final warning; a police caution; then off to Magistrates Court for a fine and community order...by which time the kid has already earned kudos in the gang for usurping the authorities... Each case should be judged on its merrits, but if knife and gun crime continues to escalate, we'll be routinely arming our police forces rapido, then you'll have all sorts of different arguments and concerns. More community diversions, coupled with credible punishments for transgression ... I pretty much agree. It was the - in my opinion - ill-considered and knee-jerk reaction of 'sling 'em in jail for a long time' that I had a real issue with. Anyway, I'm off now.
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Post by WindsorShrew on May 19, 2010 21:44:03 GMT 1
Pab has been arrested for being "Ugly and Stupid" in public loads of times. He never learns, hang him ! Best use a tugs tow rope though.......
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Post by El Presidente on May 19, 2010 22:01:34 GMT 1
Pab has been arrested for being "Ugly and Stupid" in public loads of times. He never learns, hang him ! Best use a tugs tow rope though.......
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2010 6:21:06 GMT 1
Pab has been arrested for being "Ugly and Stupid" in public loads of times. He never learns, hang him ! Best use a tugs tow rope though....... i have put on 2 and a half stone since i packed up smoking 2 years ago. its getting a bit out of control really, but whatever i try i dont seem to keep the weight off. omar, i want you to be right, but frankly you sound like every lame ass social worker i have ever come across. get the cane and leave them something to remind them of what society considers right and wrong. and do it publicly where all their friends can witness what they risk and invite the victims families so they can see justice being done.
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Post by WindsorShrew on May 20, 2010 6:49:46 GMT 1
Err leftie can't you at least have a pop at me ?
I go to all this trouble and you ignore it !
Your out of order mate, it's bl00dy rude simple as.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2010 19:02:37 GMT 1
Err leftie can't you at least have a pop at me ? I go to all this trouble and you ignore it ! Your out of order mate, it's bl00dy rude simple as. Bloody hell mate, really sorry, what was i thinking. errrr, sod off you short assed pixie thatcherite (or should i say liberal now) insomniac gnome. hope thats ok
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Post by WindsorShrew on May 20, 2010 19:30:29 GMT 1
Err leftie can't you at least have a pop at me ? I go to all this trouble and you ignore it ! Your out of order mate, it's bl00dy rude simple as. Bloody hell mate, really sorry, what was i thinking. errrr, sod off you short assed pixie thatcherite (or should i say liberal now) insomniac gnome. hope thats ok I may report you to the Mods for the "Liberal" smear, bigotry and libdemphobia will not be tolerated. You overweight greyhaired crossdressing poof
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