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Post by RuytonShrew on Jan 27, 2004 23:34:40 GMT 1
Blimey! What uni was that then, I obviously missed a trick! ;D I had one term with just seven hours a week but I was writing my dissertation at the same time. Uni was fun but the idea that students loaf around all day is unfair. By the way, this debate is uncannily like when we had it about two weeks ago and it's still fairly evenly split! And no-one has changed their minds as a result of the views expressed at all. Kind of reminds me of a debate in parliament!
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Post by mysticmurray on Jan 28, 2004 0:27:28 GMT 1
Basically, I'm up Shit Creek without a paddle....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2004 8:46:36 GMT 1
Basically, I'm up S hit Creek without a paddle.... Does private education not cost a lot of money?
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Post by welshshrew5 on Jan 28, 2004 11:03:54 GMT 1
Phil, I'm still not sure that you understand what a burden that extra money could be on a student graduating?
Add to that the manifesto pledge broken, and it was a pretty sad day all round I think.
Especially as the variability issue means that 3K will increase rapidly whichever political party is in charge of this country come 2012.
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Post by gregtheshrew on Jan 28, 2004 12:15:21 GMT 1
I was in favour of the students till i saw that silly cow on tv the other day saying that we should pay for her to become a doctor because we would be grateful for her when we have heart attacks.What a ******* stupid *****.
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Post by duncowshrew on Jan 28, 2004 12:22:49 GMT 1
Pauldownhard-- sorry for the delay in replying,been to work.
I don't expect anyone to help me fund my kids education on an individual basis. The fact is this country runs a bit like a co-operative. You put your fair share into the pot and should receive a fair share from it when needed.
Following your argument to it's logical conclusion,just because you're fit and healthy,do you begrudge giving help to the disabled. Because you have a job do you not feel the need to look after someone who hasn't.Just because your child doen't want further education you prevent someonelses from going?
I would quite happily pay for my 3 kids to go to uni. Unfortunately, with twin girls and a boy only 18 months older, that is going to cost something like 45k in a very short space of time. Being a postman, I wouldn't earn that much in the first place. Perhaps though you wouldn't object to the price of a stamp going up to say £50, so that Royal Mail can give me a huge pay rise so that my kids don't become a burden.Plus of course they would be paying tax themselves,once qualified so you do get some return on your investment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2004 15:27:03 GMT 1
From my experience of Uni, a large propotion of people only went there so they didn't have to get a job for another 3/4 years. So many people skipped lessons it was unbelieveable, the pub was the busiest place on site. Hopefully the new fees will put people like that off of going but unfortunately it will also stop the less well off people who want higher education.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2004 15:33:23 GMT 1
As well as punishing those who go for the right reasons Craig.
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Post by skipwithrob on Jan 29, 2004 11:38:13 GMT 1
sorry bout the delay, dont have very good acess to computers at uni.
Some people think students should pay for their education fair enough.
However when you add to the fact that a graduate when earning enough to warrent paying back fees/and student loans might also be required to pay other taxes, look after a family (?) and consider buying a house to live in. It is yet another burden that quite frankly is not required.
Yes students should contribute to their education,but they should not be morgaging their future to do it.
Its even harder to swallow when you consider the amount of public money that is wasted by central government each year...
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Post by Leedshrew on Jan 29, 2004 12:11:53 GMT 1
I can see the arguments for and against this rise in tuition fees, it would have to be a very special university to persuade to to pay three grand a year on tuition fees when you can learn basically the same material at another uni for one grand a year, so I wonder how many unis will put their fees up that much straight away? Only on very high demand courses I would think.
Perhaps the government could do something elsewhere to reduce the expense of university, my rent in the second year was £50 quid a week for an absolute dump in a shoddy area and it was impossible to find a house you could sign up for just the months I would be in Leeds. If housing was regulated to bring rents down to reasonable rates and to prevent students from being charged for rent during the summer, then thousands a year could be saved from there. I'm sure all students would rather be paying more to their university and less to unscrupulous landlords.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2004 12:33:46 GMT 1
I think all Unis will be charging 3k and then once the variability comes into it you will quickly see a well defined two tier system in our universities.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2004 13:59:44 GMT 1
;DChrisH, Yes was taking the p**s, but as you say silly old cliche's, but as all i hear from you is the ideal world situation, we do not live in the ideal world of womens lib, anti racist almost communist state, we live in a world of the few privilideged people and far greater numbers of under privilidged, are you gonna be one of the constant moaners or you gonna do somthing positive to change it. my advice is wake up and smell the coffee......
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Post by xcraigxx on Jan 29, 2004 14:03:36 GMT 1
You are right Gareth, if I had to pay fees to go to Uni then I would never have gone. As it is, I came out with a 2:1 (hooray!) and I am only £13,500 in debt!
I have recently been looking into mortgages and with such a debt against my name I recon it could be a lot harder to get one. If you add another £3,000 a year to that then the poor students who will have to pay fees will be even worse off than me.
There are a lot more negatives than positives that have arrisen from this vote but with less people going to Uni, class sizes will be smaller and therefore there will be more time for Lecturer to interact individually with students.
At Stafford we regularly had 200+ in a lecture, with 30 odd in a tutorial. If I didn't know how to do something then that was the way it stayed. The lecturer did not have the time to help everyone. At Lampeter there were half a dozen of us and I found it easy to get help and my work rate improved because of this. I went from just avoiding a 3rd class to getting a 2:1. Not that this positive will be seen as positive to those of us who do not have large wads of cash lying around!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2004 14:08:25 GMT 1
Pauldownhard-- sorry for the delay in replying,been to work. Following your argument to it's logical conclusion,just because you're fit and healthy,do you begrudge giving help to the disabled. Because you have a job do you not feel the need to look after someone who hasn't.Just because your child doen't want further education you prevent someonelses from going? . In a word duncowshrew, no i do not mind helping disabled people,But definately do not feel the need to look after someone who has not got a job, i would however not mind topping someones pay up to the national/regional average if there pay did not meet this criteria, but were going down a whole new road here, and as for my kids, am currently funding my stepdaughter through her further education, so having to do a second job, so she does not become a burden to socitey, as for my lad, also saving like mad incase he decides further education is his way ahead...i call this forsight and responsible.
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Post by CuyahogaBlue on Jan 29, 2004 15:55:41 GMT 1
What worries me about the "paying for education" drift the country is taking, is that a consumer (student) is buying a product (education) and that a provider (university) gives a degree when they have a full tuition account.
In many US Universities, standards have dropped I think, because the institution will not kick out a reliable source of revenue. You pay your money, you get a degree.
If a lecturer has 200+ and a tutorial of 30+ students (s)he will be considered a good source of revenue - that lecturer will not diminish his/her economic impact by failing anyone, especially if they are looking for another 9 month contract.
I don't like the notion that education is an economic commodity that can be bought and sold.
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Post by duncowshrew on Jan 29, 2004 17:47:42 GMT 1
Paul, your second job isn't as a tory councillor is it or perhaps Attilla The Hun?
Got to go now. Just signed up to uni to do a course on foresight and responsibility.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2004 21:05:35 GMT 1
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You should pass quite easily now that you have had a few lessons, ps woulkd you like to borrow my blue tie!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2004 22:18:01 GMT 1
I think that uni students should pay something for their education.
Reading the points in this thread, I realise that people could be considerable in debt when they leave uni. I'll be £20,000 in debt just from my student loan - another thing the government needs to consider is how much more expensive it is to live in London and the south in general.
I will consider £20,000 well spent if I get a good job at the end of the day and if I'm honest i expect that to be the case.
The university system is losing money due to the number of people entering university (far too many in my opinion) and until the number is reduced I can't see how the government can fund the gap.
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Post by RuytonShrew on Jan 29, 2004 22:39:07 GMT 1
They have created that gap, Phil. It is the government setting ludicrously high targets for the percentage of students going to university. Mr Blair might have escaped a roasting in the Hutton Enquiry but I think the tuition fee debate could yet come back to haunt him.
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Post by Dashers on Jan 29, 2004 23:13:30 GMT 1
I'm not usually one to comment on political issues but being a former student am concerned that students will in time be paying for tuition fees. Paul, I accept your point about not paying for other peoples university, however, the same could be said for other important issues ie....i dont have any kids, yet my taxes still pay for their standard education, and i also pay for the NHS when i dont use it and go private. Unfortunately thats life whether we like it or not Every person should at least have the opportunity to go to university. A number of prople including myself who have been fortunate to go, whilst having a comfortable lifestyle are to some extent repaying the costs via higher taxes. I note your comment regarding students p**sing it up the wall (which i did too, many years ago!!!!!!) and accept it and whilst students should be responsible for handling/managing their own finances, i feel asking them to pay the tuition fees will alienate all but those people whose families are rich enough to afford it. Personally, i feel that the main issue is to deal with the type of course available. Far too many mickey mouse courses for my liking. Such money should be put to investing in other vocational training areas. ie the various construction trades etc. As for the govt changing policy.... thats another issue!
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Post by R6ix on Jan 29, 2004 23:39:35 GMT 1
so what is the situation on foreign students? do they have to pay for their education here anyway or do they qualify for free, as most foreign nationals do when they arrive on these shores?
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Post by RuytonShrew on Jan 29, 2004 23:42:11 GMT 1
I can see we're going to fall out again here, Rsix...!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2004 23:45:56 GMT 1
Yup, I can see where this is trying to go... At my University the majority of foreign students pay between £10,000 and £18,000 a year!
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Post by R6ix on Jan 29, 2004 23:49:01 GMT 1
i dont try to fall out with anyone, and im not trying to shift the thread anywhere, just asking about foreign students paying for there education,
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Post by mysticmurray on Jan 30, 2004 0:13:10 GMT 1
From the point of view of someone currently planning my next 5 years, I can see that it's not going to be easy on the financial side. Like it or lump it, University is an expensive affair, and it's about to get pricier. I admit that students should have to pay something towards their education, but not necessarily as much as the figures that have been quoted.
I'm sure I'll enjoy it though...
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Post by skipwithrob on Jan 30, 2004 2:09:32 GMT 1
The only way that the governments aim of 50% of students progressing to uni can be achieved is by the continuation of "mickeymouse" degrees. What they and a lot of people seem to be missing, is that someone who gets two Es and a D at A-Level may not be cut out for uni. As for for 30 odd people in a seminar, well fortunatly I have at most 12 people in my seminars. I thought we as students already paid something towards our education in the form of £1050 or however much a student can aford. Its not cheap, I'm in the cheapest halls of residence and it still costs over £3,000 for a 30 week course. My point is things have changed, no longer do students have it easy, like Mr Charles Clarke and Tony Blair did in the "good" old days. maybe the government can introduce a fat tax. If students should pay for their education, smokers be taxed through the nose to fund the NHS, drivers be taxed through the arse just to drive on a gridlocked road, communters charged a fortune to travel on a dirty packed train that is always running late, then why can't fat people pay a tax so as to help pay for their upkeep through the NHS in 20 years. After all they WILL be the BIGGEST drain on NHS resources. Or am I just being sizest.....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2004 8:34:07 GMT 1
People should be able to go to uni if they want to.
However, I think some standard neds to be put on university qualification. As Rob says some people may not actually be cut out for university.
A lot of people currently at university just seem to be doing it to stay away from working for another 3/4 years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2004 9:27:39 GMT 1
Yes, but I've seen plenty of people who got all As at A-Level who aren't cut out for University, and people who get far less end up doing much better.
I appreciate the points made but where do you draw the line? Rob, how would you feel if you were told that with your A-Levels you weren't allowed to go to University because you weren't 'cut out' for it?
It would be pretty demorilising to say the least.
The one thing I do agree with is the introduction of more vocational related degree courses at University. Say programmes of study where the student is fixed with a work placement for specific weeks in the year etc. so they get a good general learning in that industry for when they graduate.
But I maintain that everyone should have a right to a higher education.
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Post by BrummieBoy on Jan 30, 2004 10:00:54 GMT 1
Just a couple of observations on the interesting stuff that's been said above.
(1) Rsix: foreign students get an unbeliveably BAD deal in terms of the fees they pay at UK universities. Universities are allowed to charge students from abroad much more than 'home' students in terms of fees. Whereas a Masters student will pay in the range of £2,500 in fees for a social science degree course, a foreign student can pay up to £8,000. This will be more in hard science subjects. I find it staggering that universities can actually get away with this as foreign students receive exactly the same course and use exactly the same facilities, yet pay so much more for them. It is also not normally relevant which country the students comes from - a student from (normally, as I say, there are exceptions) Angola pays the same as one from Japan, a student from Bosnia the same as one from South Korea. The system really is odd in this regard.
(2) I don't want to bang the 'politicians aren't all that bad drum', but take a look at the posts on this board. Perhaps they are more representative of us - and all our weaknesses than we think. Very, very few people change their opinions on account of what they hear in debates on issues like tuition fees. People on B and A are just the same as politicians - you have prejudices and preordained opinions and tend very much to stick to them. In other words, human nature is NOT always genuinely open and reflective - we have particular opinions that we believe are right and are sometimes very pig-headed about it. I'm not condoning this, just trying to make us all aware of it.
Sometimes this is concious (i.e. I will always be against the death penalty, no matter what) others are sub-conscious and you may not even realise your reluctance to reflect on where you stand. Politicians, like the rest of us, are similar - so if anyone seriously expected mass changes of opinion because of debates over the last week or so, they were always going to be mistaken. People aren't - for better or worse - made like that.
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Post by Salop on Jan 30, 2004 12:24:23 GMT 1
Ant, that happened to me and it was demoralising to a certain extent. Even more so because I felt I was given a bad deal by the markers. I still got offered a place at Derby though. Now who wants to go to a university that hands out degrees to people who didn’t make the grade, I certainly didn’t. I don’t think a 1st/2:1 from Derby would get me anywhere near the same level of interviews or jobs as a 1st/2:1 from Loughborough. So I did a foundation degree to get onto the course I wanted. The simple answer is that if you don’t make the grade, and if you really want it, try again. Don’t let people in who clearly haven’t bothered. I can understand your point of view and this whole debate seems to be between those that want higher education for all at a price, those that want higher education for those who are good enough for free, and Paul . Given a choice between a cut off point or tuition fees, I know which one I would pick and I’ve been there.
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