|
Post by harmerhillshrew on Feb 5, 2005 10:50:11 GMT 1
One other thing At the moment in Shrewsbury we are having the 'Darwin Festival' Is it just me, but the fact that a fair few events connected to this festival are held in churches does not seem quite right.
|
|
|
Post by rob on Feb 5, 2005 11:45:30 GMT 1
why??? Just as there are creationists who believe the world was made in 7 days, there are also other christians who have the same bveliefs as Darwin in that it was an evolutionary process. Incidently the man is burried at west minster abbey, he's not even given his own little "monument" just a rather large slab on the ground, altho' he is next door to Mr Isaac Newton
|
|
|
Post by harmerhillshrew on Feb 5, 2005 11:48:58 GMT 1
why??? Just as there are creationists who believe the world was made in 7 days, there are also other christians who have the same bveliefs as Darwin in that it was an evolutionary process. So which monkeys were Adam and Eve (I resisted this thread for 6 pages, I knew I should not have got involved )
|
|
|
Post by rob on Feb 5, 2005 11:51:56 GMT 1
Why dont you go and read the origin of species? The great man will have probably answered your question, and you never know, you might learn something
|
|
|
Post by harmerhillshrew on Feb 5, 2005 11:53:08 GMT 1
Why dont you go and read the origin of species? The great man will have probably answered your question, and you never know, you might learn something Damn you clever student types
|
|
|
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 5, 2005 12:02:22 GMT 1
Natural selection within kinds proves a level of evolutionary theory and proves biblical creationism, depends on how you approach it
It can prove we came from nothing if you want it to, it can also prove the diversity we see today within kinds / species can occur from an original source of animals
So I believe from an original Dog, we have all the types of dog we see today, all having adapted to their natural environment of where they live and what their diet is.
I don;t believe a dog is a product of a massive inter-kind evolutionary cycle.
There is a lack of real evidence that a genetic mutation ever adds genetic material to make an organism more advanced (a mutation by definition is usually a loss of genetic information)
I also don;t believe some sort of cross breeding occured betweek two kinds of animals to make a dog, because the cross breeds we know today, like Muels, are almost always infertile
and add the fact we have no evidence of any "cross-kind" animal today, and were the evolutionary process occuing we would have evidence of some species in between cycles. There would be some sort of 25% cat 75% dog animal, but there isn't any hard evidence of this.
So how you use and approach Darwinism, or any scientific theory, is always based on your underlying assumptions.
If you believe we came from chance you will look for chance. If you believe in God you will look for God. But neither of those is more "true" as science, because when looking back at what we have not seen and do not know the standard scientific "proof" of doing an experiment and measuring the results is impossible and all are led into making a decent guess based on what they think.
|
|
|
Post by pawlo on Feb 5, 2005 12:51:47 GMT 1
Is the old testemant taken too literally?
|
|
Wrighty
Midland League Division One
Posts: 465
|
Post by Wrighty on Feb 5, 2005 14:29:07 GMT 1
Ok for what its worth here are my views:-
1.) We are born, procreate, die and ultimately rot
2.) The bible is a book of Chinese whispers and as flawed as the other books of that time ie Julus Caeser claimed that he killed more Britons than actually existed in the whole country at the time. 3.)No offence to anyone but I have always thought that religion was a crutch for people who need someone or something to blame of. I have always found reigion vaguley sinister in all honesty as it just makes no sense to me
ps if I am wrong then surely the omnipotent all seing benefactor living on a cloud will forgive me anyway!
|
|
|
Post by pawlo on Feb 5, 2005 14:56:53 GMT 1
Ok for what its worth here are my views:- 1.) We are born, procreate, die and ultimately rot 2.) The bible is a book of Chinese whispers and as flawed as the other books of that time ie Julus Caeser claimed that he killed more Britons than actually existed in the whole country at the time. 3.)No offence to anyone but I have always thought that religion was a crutch for people who need someone or something to blame of. I have always found reigion vaguley sinister in all honesty as it just makes no sense to me ps if I am wrong then surely the omnipotent all seing benefactor living on a cloud will forgive me anyway! A reasonable approach. Your crutch point is a valid point, but as well as the blame point, it also gives millions hope, which i feel is the one thing we should not take away from anyone. The omnipotent all seeing benefactor who lives on a cloud is not a reference to the chelsea chairman is it?
|
|
Wrighty
Midland League Division One
Posts: 465
|
Post by Wrighty on Feb 5, 2005 15:09:52 GMT 1
Your crutch point is a valid point, but as well as the blame point, it also gives millions hope, which i feel is the one thing we should not take away from anyone. Completely agree why it does not work for me if it works for others then fine I have no issue with that. As for the benefactor maybe Roman Abramovich is God, that would be a worry knowing where most of his money came from ;D
|
|
|
Post by warbiesbread on Feb 5, 2005 19:09:10 GMT 1
i do not think it a myth, i believe that there is a God and jesus his son lived and died and rose again. The difficulty i have is with the church, how it sees itself, and its place in the community, at times it is manipulative, controlling and so far removed from what the bible says it should be it has lost its identity. People in charge of church are so insecure that they mis use the power to control and stifle people.
If the church was really in touch with its roots and what it should be i doubt very much whether we would be having this debate. Its the way the people within church demonstrate their faith that causes most confusion
|
|
|
Post by blue 44 on Feb 5, 2005 19:27:05 GMT 1
some very valid points marsbar 99 though there are some excellent churches focused on serving the community rather than power struggles. in town there have the Isaiah 58 project that does alot for the homeless for example However Christians are doing a lot of thinking about a new way of doing church . www.emergingchurch.info/
|
|
|
Post by wiganshrew2 on Feb 6, 2005 1:02:50 GMT 1
I know a lot of people, who are Christians, and are also very intellectual. People who have studied all the sources from which the Bible came and really know what they're talking about.
There's others, like me, whose testimony is more subjective and personal.
But I speak as one who felt, at one time, very much as Wrighty does. This is a line from a poem I wrote when I was young - "We move like a moon between the clouds, from darkness into darkness."
This is spite of the fact that I was always fascinated by the character of Jesus- and I came to think that the Judeo/Christian guidelines for living tended to work well- and could see why they formed the basis of our legal system.
In fact, I'd come to terms with my rather bleak view- as the end of my search.
My family weren't Christians- one or two were "Churchgoers" in the days when it was the socially acceptable thing to do- but my maternal grandfather was an athiest who was comfortable with that.
But I came to believe. I come to it, admittedly, not in a intellectual way- though I'm one who thinks about things. I'm not all that erudite. I can't go into sources of the Bible- but I know people in our church who can.
O.K- then it's largely as a result of what I experienced. (But recently, a scientist who was closely involved in the discovery of the DNA code, has changed from being an athiest into believing that it's all too complicated a design to be "an accident"- and that "an intelligence" must be behind it.
Nobody expects people to believe that God is an old man in the sky!! Even the Bible states that God is a spirit and is worshipped "in spirit and in truth".
What is time? How did it begin, when will it end? Can we really answer these questions, as clecver as we think we are?
God is outside time. How can we possibly know about the unimaginable and unthinkable. We just get little glimpses of things beyond this world.
I'm married to an unbeliever. Yet, things happened when he was ill, that even made him think!!! My husband wasn't too keen on me becoming a Christian, at first. But now he's fine about it- and further more, he's met some of the people from my church -and has had a good laugh with them- and now realised they're not at all "pious" or think they're better than others. He's had many a good laugh with our Church treasurer, Harry. I can't put forward any great intellectual arguements because I lack the resources.(I have only really had time to study for my own line of work, in any depth.)
I'm glad, though, that some people can do that. I feel confident that what I trust in, isn't JUST based on my feelings and experience.
To use an analogy- you can't see the wind, but you can see what it does. You can't see sound waves, electricity.... it's a power source and O.K- Science has discovered it. Science can discover the DNA code - and tamper with creating babies- but it can't explain WHY WE'RE HERE AT ALL_ That's mind-blowing stuff.
There's a strange parallel, though, between what some Scientists are now saying about parallel universes- and what the Bible says, in poetic language about the Kingdom of Heaven being here now. It's all a mystery but...
Jesus is special because lives were changed because of him- and still are.
Yes- I DO know people have used Christianity as an excuse to fight wars and persecute. Much evil has been done in the name of religion- but we're told that would happen- "You will know them by their fruits". It's just like some people can use anything that was intended for good- and use it for bad.
In answer to anyone who wants to believe but can't- Well- I know of a very down to earth woman who said in desparation, "God- if you're there- let me know!" It worked for her.
But for me- it took a few YEARS in between hearing the Christian Footballer on T.V.- feeling compelled to send for the literature- and THEN- thinking it wasn't "working" for me- but thinking, at that time,"never mind- it's still a better way of living!"-
And finally having an experience that convinced me. But it doesn't always work that way. Some people sort of "grow" into faith, gradually.
I don't have trouble with the mysteries of the Bible- because, so often, it's a case of putting the indescribable into words- and the most important thing, in this life, is to love others and care about them.
If people can't believe- then surely the wisdom of that command- to love others as we love ourselves- and treat others as we'd like to be treated, is so staggeringly simple yet so fundemental. Think what a different world it would be if everyone really took that to heart?!!!!
One thing I would say- that I only really heard about Jesus at school- and he fascinated me. But when I really began to read the things they don't tell you at school- about how he dealt with people the world despised- and the wisdom of his answers, I began to realise that this is why what he said has stood the test of time- and why it's as fresh and relevant for today as it was 2,000 years ago. This was no "cult" - cults don't last- and the words of their leaders are exposed as madness.
The thing is- in the end, it's a personal response. But- often, people will say it starts with a decision.
|
|
|
Post by Tony_HullShrew on Feb 6, 2005 11:03:54 GMT 1
In the course of Christian history, few events loom larger than the Council of Nicea in 325. When the newly converted Roman Emperor Constantine called bishops from around the world to present-day Turkey, the church had reached a theological crossroads. Next Shrewsweb vote - "Which was the most important council in Christian history: Nicea 325 or Chalcedon in 451 when the top Church politicians set in stone what everyone should believe, and if you didn't watch it (you'll be anathematised - not even Dr Who's darleks were so cruel!)". Chalcedon can be held partly responsible for the Spanish inquisitian and a lot of today's intolerances. Sorry to get a bit nit-picky, but I have tried to keep my post shorter that TBHs!
|
|
|
Post by Tony_HullShrew on Feb 6, 2005 11:09:24 GMT 1
BTW TBH - people may say your first post was long, but it summarises well what some books say in a couple of hundred pages!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2005 18:18:11 GMT 1
Out of interest, does anybody know if there are any records of what people used to believe in before the year 0 A.D?
|
|
|
Post by rob on Feb 6, 2005 18:23:25 GMT 1
Judasim (sp?)
Hinduism, Buddhism etc....
|
|
|
Post by SlimShandy on Feb 6, 2005 19:31:36 GMT 1
Oh this thread is going to run and run.
Contender for longest thread that isn't "longest thread ever!!"
People used to believe all sorts of things before 0 AD. People still do, in fact.
In Britain at 0 AD it would be mainly tribal gods. Some big deities e.g. Beltane, but mostly small 'spirits' located around special areas e.g crags, waterfalls that sort of thing.
|
|