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Post by Mr T on Feb 3, 2005 15:35:13 GMT 1
i think the red dwarf episode when kryten is going to be terminated by his replacement cos he won't shut down, sums up religion for me
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Post by gobbieshrew on Feb 3, 2005 15:39:00 GMT 1
how come paul daniels can saw women in half and he is not considered a god? ITS ALL MAD!!! his is god, only the big fella could of pulled Debbie McGee wearing a little ginger hairpiece!!
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Post by blue44 on Feb 3, 2005 15:41:37 GMT 1
Old Git wrote"I was staggered by the number of women killed and persecuted by the "Inquisition" years - almost on a par with the Nazis "Final Solution". That is ridiculous the estimates I have seen for those kiled in the inquisition are between 7 and 31 000 I am not RC but to compare that to the Holocaust is offensive I suspect that the clue to Old Gits quote lies in the 2 words "and persecuted! which could mean any thing to having to obety a curfew to physical torture but by that definition the Nazis persecuted whole countries and tens of millions of people Incidentally its an uncomfortable fact that the 3 biggest 20th century killers were all atheists Hitler ,Stalin and Mao who starved millions of his own poeple quite deliberatlv when it comes to murder and torture atheists have a poor record
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Post by tattooshrew on Feb 3, 2005 15:52:24 GMT 1
The bible is the most researched book in history and there are more original manuscripts that the bible was written from in existance than any other ancient book, plus loads of non christian evidence that Jesus Christ existed and died on the cross. There are also the eye witness accounts of over 500 people who saw him after the resurection. As to miracles, certain things that have no rational or logical explanation do still happen. STFC going unbeaten for the rest of the season, now that would be a miracle! Personally i would rather accept the evidence from history and my own experience than from some novel. Having said all that it is all down to what you are prepared to believe ;D
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Post by True_Shrew on Feb 3, 2005 17:22:36 GMT 1
TBH I don't know what to believe, my heart says one thing but rationallity in my brain tells me another- so what side do you believe?
I think in some areas religion can cause a certain amount of embarassement to a person, I congratulate those who come on here and tells us about their beliefs because you are in the minority and it is easy to criticise religion than to try to understand it.
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Post by Pilch on Feb 3, 2005 17:26:04 GMT 1
I can't wait for the 3rd coming when jesus walks into church one sunday morning, spends the afternoon in the police cells and lives happily ever after in shelton cos nobody really believes in him
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Post by Ratcliffesghost on Feb 3, 2005 17:31:52 GMT 1
Throb asking the Ghost where something is in the bible What are the chances of that In ACTS young man (see I have read a fair bit in the last 4 months Somewhere around 49/50/51ish The Holy Ghost
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2005 17:39:53 GMT 1
Let's open this out into the football world after all this is a footie website!
Religion should be kept out of football. Look at the sectarian hatred that smoulders within the masses of Celtic and Rangers supporters.
Can anyone tell me why it is that whether a player is Catholic or Protestant it makes them a better footballer? Why should a prominant football team not allow players of the opposite religious view to play for them?
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Post by Carter on Feb 3, 2005 18:22:18 GMT 1
www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.aspQuote from that site... "As you add up all of the dates, and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth almost 2000 years ago, we come to the conclusion that the creation of the Earth and animals (including the dinosaurs) occurred only thousands of years ago (perhaps only 6000!), not millions of years. Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years." Flawless logic!!!! Best laugh I've had all day!!!
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Post by somersetshrew on Feb 3, 2005 18:33:28 GMT 1
Only just picked up this thread, got to be a contender for thread of the year!! so, now my input...... Ive read both books in question. One is more believable than the other. The DaVinci Code is a wonderful mix of fact and fiction, so much so, that at times, you could almost believe it to be true. Has anyone seen the special edition with the pictures, explaining some of the anomolies in DaVinci's paintings? and the real life locations? Its a very well researched and put together book. The bible, on the other hand, is made up from many peoples' accounts of events that hapened at that time, and memories/stories from before. If you treat it as an entertainment medium and not as a reference book, a lot can be learned, not all religious. I will be watching the programme tonight. I waso wasnt to visit that church in Rosslyn, it looks a really interesting place. Look at it on the web sometime. www.rosslynchapel.org.uk/
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Post by Carter on Feb 3, 2005 18:33:53 GMT 1
That site gets better..... "the dinosaur fossils which were formed as a result of this Flood were probably formed about 4,500 years ago, not millions of years ago." I mean the pyramids are over 5000 years for heavens sake!!! Desparate stuff to try to prove something that science has since disproved!!! Carbon dating anyone???
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Post by mattsnapper2 on Feb 3, 2005 18:39:36 GMT 1
bit off topic.. anyone read graham hunters books or watched his heavens mirror doccos..? Basically he points out that the pyramids, the asteca, easter island and an underwater momument off japan are all on the same latitude and have all survived floods and ward AND they face the star constalations from way before when.
personally the tao of pooh and te of piglet will do for me. I think most town fans have to be a Taoist (dowist) !
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Post by rob on Feb 3, 2005 18:49:50 GMT 1
I'm not expert but ever considered that maybe they measured time/days different 2000/3000+ years ago?
Maybe their idea of a day was a week?
What is abundently clear is that a lot of people dont fully comprehend the this topic, and thus are in no position to rip the p**s.
Ignorance is not a funny trait
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Post by somersetshrew on Feb 3, 2005 18:52:22 GMT 1
Matt, I think you mean Graham Hancock.
I have got heavens mirror, its an excellent read, mentioning that egyptians, south americans and others from around the world could have evolved from a single source.
What I like about that book is that Hancock doesn't press his theories on you, allowing you to make up your own mind, but at the same time even arguing against himself at times.
for example..... Pyramids exist in both Egypt and south america.
Argument for a single race...... same technology used
against..... anyone wanting to build a high structure would build it on a large base for stability.
Heavy reading, but good.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 3, 2005 19:07:32 GMT 1
Throb asking the Ghost where something is in the bible What are the chances of that In ACTS young man (see I have read a fair bit in the last 4 months Somewhere around 49/50/51ish The Holy Ghost I meant which passage had you asked the others about
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 3, 2005 19:12:22 GMT 1
Everything in science is subject to debate the professors themselves at different universities spend hours a day ripping holes in each others theories That is how life works. The difference is they have some respect for each other and for the people involved. Everyone comes into these discussions witha set of preconceived ideas that effects the way they treat the information Carbon dating? www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asphave a read and then tell me reasons why I should trust carbon dating but don't take the pee from behind the facade of what "science has proved" because "science" is proving and disproving new things every day
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 3, 2005 19:19:46 GMT 1
Religion should be kept out of football. Look at the sectarian hatred that smoulders within the masses of Celtic and Rangers supporters. Can anyone tell me why it is that whether a player is Catholic or Protestant it makes them a better footballer? Why should a prominant football team not allow players of the opposite religious view to play for them? I totally agree with this although the religion vs race thing plays a huge part of this the fight was always between protestants and catholics, but those religioins represented the UK and Ireland at the time when political systems and religious systems intertwine and people get involved then it all becomes very very messy always has, always will, when people get involved in anything it normally goes wrong at some point the great political reformers of UK history, often non conformist evangelicals, did a lot to shape what we now call democracy. Their goal was for individuals to have free speech and true representation, all equal before God and the rest of it, and we have much to be grateful for. sadly where there is power there are always nasty people wanting to be involved to abuse it, and that can be in any political system or religious establishment
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Post by CuyBlue nli on Feb 3, 2005 19:25:25 GMT 1
TBH - "everything in science is subject to debate" Title of thread "Is Christianity a Myth" Intereseting juxtoposition - I think everyone agrees that Christianity is a set of beliefs. However, evangelical Christians are now aiming to "prove" christianity is not a myth, but is in fact all truth - the theory of Intelligent Design is being taught in Biology classes, often time instead of Darwinism. The basic tenet of Intelligent Design is that something must have designed the world because it couldn't have evolved. Religious beliefs, ie that the bible is to be interpreted literally, is now taught as a scientific theory - in my view this is plain wrong. An understanding of all religious beliefs is good, being taught christian beliefs in a science class is plain wrong.
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Post by Carter on Feb 3, 2005 19:30:52 GMT 1
science.howstuffworks.com/carbon-142.htmSeems to make sense to me.... I'm afraid I can't really buy the bit about the planet being 6000 years old, and dinosaurs being around in the past 4500 years, and someone building a big wooden boat to take at least 2 of all the animals on the planet including said dinosaurs... But each to their own I suppose.....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2005 20:00:10 GMT 1
I can see what you're trying to say about Science Dave but I certainly don't agree with you.
Yes, a lot of science, particularly theoretical physics for example is being debated over each day by different scientists judging their argument to be correct.
However in the majority of cases Maths/experiments/results prove what is happening.
My biggest argument against Christianity is the lack of any solid proof about Jesus being the sun of God.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 3, 2005 20:10:38 GMT 1
Cuyahoga - yes I take that point, people will always try and teach what they believe to be true if you believe the world happened by chance and we can find out how then you will base that as your truth if you believe God made the world you will base that as your truth either way you will use science to try and prove it both sides of the equation tend to take liberties. it is like evolution, everyone agrees on differentiation within kinds, it happens, always has , always will, proves the bible and proves evolution if you want it to the christians cannot physically introduce you to Jesus in the same way a scientist struggles to show you an example of a mutation that increases genetic material (vital for evolution) or a cross-kind animal that is fertile but the national curriculum teaches selection within kinds as proving we came from monkeys, which is bad science, and most evolutionists would back me on that point Carter - yeah, there are many theories about what makes thing work, one suits your worldview, one suits my worldview, we both regard it as truth I can respect that, but it doesn;t make me wrong And Phil - science regarding what we see and know is very different compared to science that supposedly retraces the past because the variables are so vast how many of your lecturers thought the universe was expanding and how many think it is retracting? just how many different theories are there about how to measure that sort of thing? is one true? how can you prove it? and as for the fact Jesus is the son of God, well, you prove to me Julius Caesar came to britain and I will prove Jesus was the son of god. You will show me a set history book from approximately 1000 AD of which we have nine copies. I will show you a set of eye witness account set within 50 years of the actual event of which we have approximately 22,000 manuiscripts Now Julius Caesar did come to Britain, we know it, it is true, but it all depends on what you want to believe about the past I am off out now, oddly enough I have a Church members meeting PS Divided in Faith, United in our love for STFC
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Feb 3, 2005 20:18:45 GMT 1
I quarrel with the assertion that the DaVinci Code is a well written book, it's a pot boiler written in journalese.
As for religious belief, I think it's down to the way your mind works.
Despite going to RC schools until I was 11 and attending church until 16 I never had any belief, but my wife is a regular church goer.
We have had a bad time with family illness and bereavements recently and I wished that I could have had the comfort that she derived from her faith, so I feel a little envious of people with a strong belief system.
However, I think that if we all tried to live our lives according to the principles of Jesus the world would be a better place and we would all be much happier.
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Post by skunkie on Feb 3, 2005 20:33:09 GMT 1
As a Quote..The Greatest Story Ever Told.In all religions i think the answer lies in the belief in a set of rules that you should try to abide by during your life.To be humble,loving,honest,respectful,tolerent and in general try to be the same person you would like to meet.All religions have been used for political gain over hundreds of years by many faiths,the languages used are different but the basic messages the same.Ever noticed the way people change at Christmas?.if only we rembered the love for that day all year round the world might be a better place.
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Post by True_Shrew on Feb 3, 2005 20:54:05 GMT 1
Ahem Brother Skunkie, spot on though. Anyones can diss religion all they like but if he does come down one day some of you should be very worried
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Post by wiganshrew2 on Feb 3, 2005 20:54:15 GMT 1
I haven't made a contribution, yet! You know where I stand, anyway!! Football doesn't have - or shouldn't have, much to do with Christianity!! (Forget Celtic & Rangers- that's just a excuse- it's clannishness and a tribal thing- not real Christianity.) But there are some parallels- For instance, Christianity teaches us that however many times people we love let us down, we should forgive them- Link with Football- however much Shrewsbury let us down, we turn up the next time! Christianity teaches us that our former sins are wiped away- and we start again with a clean sheet- Luke and Sam's red cards should be forgotten, and wiped away. Christianity teaches us that we should not abuse our bodies- If some of our players didn't abuse their bodies and get paralytic at night-clubs, they'd be fitter and would perform at their best!!! Christianity teaches us that we should treat others how we would wish to be treated ourselves- How would we feel if people shouted abuse at us after the first mistake we made- would it help us to keep our nerve and do better?!!! Science- yes, provides explanations of the world. But the things scientists discovered were already there. It is by no means complete. I was listening to a programme on radio 4- about a new theory about the Universe that Scientists have come up with. They now say the Universe is not expanding- it's contracting- and quicker than we thought- but that the good news is that they know think there are other Universes- and mankind will find a way to escape to them before this one implodes!! Thinking about what was hear before anything was, is mind-blowing. We just don't understand- and I happen to agree with the verse that says- "For now we see through a glass, darkly..." Miracles do happen today. They are rare - but do happen. Perhaps the biggest miracle is when people's lives are totally changed. It does happen. All this "religion", though- all the ritual and false piousness- that's not it. They haven't got it. It does say- whatever people profess to be- you'll know them by their works. Whatever people today think- however much they scoff, Jesus got alongside the people who were on the margins of society. And that's what many Christians today are doing. Back to Football- for whoever it was who said something about the rules. Games have rules. It all gets chaotic without rules. And hasn't it? The rules are the ideal for health and happiness. But the good thing is- as a Christian, you do get a chance to pick yourself up and try again. True Christianity doesn't beat you up for evermore- or expect you to beat yourself up. Whish is more than you can say for our media- who love to dish the dirt! I speak as one who DID go through a rebellious phase- and wanted to live by my own rules. The 1960's was like that- we challenged everything!!!! Did it make me happy? No! I'm far happier now. I'm not a credulous person- so it took me many, many years! Back to the Football. Isn't it more than the sum of the parts? How do you explain "atmosphere" at matches and how it lifts people, for instance. O.K- it doesn't create miracles, when what we really need is a consistant striker- but it changes things- and it can't be touched or weighed- it just happens! So it is with something like belief - you may not see it, but can see and feel how it works.
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Post by MarkRowley on Feb 3, 2005 21:08:46 GMT 1
An interesting thread certainly. Religion is a matter of belief and if someone feels they need to believe in an ancient book and its contents to guide and help them through their life, who are we to disagree with that, we are in a free country. I am not a religious bloke in the slightest I have to say, I prefer to rely on what are my personal beliefs gained largely from my family background of what is right & wrong and how I should lead my life. Equally that is my right. Religion in my eyes has two fundamental problems. Firstly by it's very nature of the age old argument of "our god is the only god" and relying on interpretaions of events and alleged land rights laid down in ancient manuscripts (who is to say whether these were contemporaneous, accurate, or genuine), religion continues to be a key cause of conflict around the world from the Middle East to Ireland to present Muslim extremism. Secondly, it still attracts characters from the general category of "nutcase" who try and convince/brainwash others of their warped version of life hiding behind the cloak of religion. I have several friends who always attend church, I respect their views and equally they respect that I do not share them. This is what is needed and there needs to be more acceptance and tolerance from groups with power from the Govt and Church of England downwards that whilst there are many millions in this country who would classify themselves as "Christians", there are many millions who would not - this does not make them 2nd class citizens which is often the impression I am left with. Science is certainly flawed in large numbers of areas and is learning new things every day. It was only a relatively short time ago in the history of the world that scientific wisdom of the day was that the world was flat. To my knowledge I have not seen anyone present hard evidence of the existence of God or Jesus. As I see it, a collection of stories, anecdotes and alleged witness statements that may or may not have happened at the time do not satisfy my questions (a cheap shot I know here but would you build a criminal prosecution on the same basis?, we'll leave various 70's & 80's police practises out of this ). How often do you hear stories start one day and by the next day they have been horrendously changed and exagerated? It is a question of belief - I don't believe in many things from God to ghosts to UFO's to Nessie : if anyone can give me firm evidence (that is not just a mixture of the usual conjecture, tales & stories) that can convince me otherwise I will reconsider my stance.
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Post by telfordSHREWS on Feb 3, 2005 21:30:01 GMT 1
Thank God i'm an atheist !
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2005 21:35:25 GMT 1
Thing is, no matter how much the arguments against whether a God exists or not, I can certainly see it has a positive effect on lots of people's lives and that is easy to see.
On the other side though I'm sure lots will suggest that religion could be blamed for a lot of the World's problems too....
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Post by Ratcliffesghost on Feb 3, 2005 22:50:32 GMT 1
I meant which passage had you asked the others about Ooops It was in Jeremiah, that bit where there was a buffet type situation going on, someone got a bollocking for making cakes that looked like people - then a candle burning ban comes into force and all because of the "Queen of heaven" very bizzare - 5 very bizarre explanations, the vicar (Richard's) had me biting my tongue to avoid laughing aloud
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 4, 2005 0:32:12 GMT 1
Ooops It was in Jeremiah, that bit where there was a buffet type situation going on, someone got a bollocking for making cakes that looked like people - then a candle burning ban comes into force and all because of the "Queen of heaven" very bizzare - 5 very bizarre explanations, the vicar (Richard's) had me biting my tongue to avoid laughing aloud Not sure the spot you mean but i'll have a browse I watched the second half of the programme tonight very interesting that essentially Tony Robinson came to the conclusioon that the whole book is a really interesting work, really digs into what people like to speculate about, draws together loads and loads of myths, misunderstandings and legends, and then packages them as a new secret meaning Robinson basically concluded it was utter tosh and brilliant fun at the same time For me the big interest was the Gnostic Gospels and the way Tony Robinson (as with many others) were drawn to an idea of the "hidden books" or the bit that the Church missed out The great problem with that idea is the sheer volume of new testament texts, hundreds of many of the books, makes the idea of one new book being the ultimate revelation quite hard to claim That is exactly the same as where JWs or Mormon's would find their pseudo-christian belief, a new book, a hidden knowledge, concealed for years suddenly revealed aside from christendom, the structures of the church, political systems abusing religion as an excuse for power and all the rest of it, what we do have is approx. 22,000 historical documents, more than any other event in history by many thousands, that escaped one of the most viscious persecutions in history, and claim to be eye witness acounts of this man called Jesus from Galilee who claimed to be God. I am not interested in religion, in practises or traditions or power. But I am interested in the most documented historical event in ancient history and why the effects of his 3 years of travelling around a small outpost of the roman empire came to make us argue the toss about Dinasaurs today
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