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Post by Rusholme Ruffian on Aug 17, 2024 8:01:45 GMT 1
We've seen the alternative for a number of seasons, release them, they get the experience at lower level, then move up to the league. Micky didn't need to be a genius to spot what was missing in our development strategy. An excellent move. that ever growing list of players that had to drop out of our club to then go play higher. Just had a quick look at where ex recent youth players are at this season. Kade Craig still at Solihull in NL. Seemed to lose his place towards end of last season, and wasn't in squad for first league game this season. Cam Gregory now back in NL with Boston, after 2 years at NLN Charlie Caton at Chester in NLN. Struggled with game time last season and goals dried up after good start. Played 90 mins of first game of the season. The rest are lower down the leagues or in Wales. Will see if they find the success of players a few years older in McAtee and Barnett who are both now back in League one. Think these were the last ones that were released to do genuinely well in league football. Josh Ginnelly is in the championship (albeit hasn't played for nearly a year due to injury), but wasn't released as town did sell him for a fee |
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trueblue89
Midland League Division Two
I'm not arguing, I'm just telling you why your wrong
Posts: 215 
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Post by trueblue89 on Aug 19, 2024 8:35:36 GMT 1
that ever growing list of players that had to drop out of our club to then go play higher. Just had a quick look at where ex recent youth players are at this season. Kade Craig still at Solihull in NL. Seemed to lose his place towards end of last season, and wasn't in squad for first league game this season. Cam Gregory now back in NL with Boston, after 2 years at NLN Charlie Caton at Chester in NLN. Struggled with game time last season and goals dried up after good start. Played 90 mins of first game of the season. The rest are lower down the leagues or in Wales. Will see if they find the success of players a few years older in McAtee and Barnett who are both now back in League one. Think these were the last ones that were released to do genuinely well in league football. Josh Ginnelly is in the championship (albeit hasn't played for nearly a year due to injury), but wasn't released as town did sell him for a fee Its just a common theme, the list of players that we have released at youth level that have gone on to have good careers is not good. Ross Draper went on to have good career playing in the EFL and SPL. Andre Gray EFL, Prem and now in the Saudi League. Will Evans, taken a slightly longer route but now playing the same level at Mansfield. Adding to the list of Craig, Gregory, Caton, McAtee, Barnett and a few more |
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Post by thepottedshrew on Aug 19, 2024 8:47:42 GMT 1
Just had a quick look at where ex recent youth players are at this season. Kade Craig still at Solihull in NL. Seemed to lose his place towards end of last season, and wasn't in squad for first league game this season. Cam Gregory now back in NL with Boston, after 2 years at NLN Charlie Caton at Chester in NLN. Struggled with game time last season and goals dried up after good start. Played 90 mins of first game of the season. The rest are lower down the leagues or in Wales. Will see if they find the success of players a few years older in McAtee and Barnett who are both now back in League one. Think these were the last ones that were released to do genuinely well in league football. Josh Ginnelly is in the championship (albeit hasn't played for nearly a year due to injury), but wasn't released as town did sell him for a fee Its just a common theme, the list of players that we have released at youth level that have gone on to have good careers is not good. Ross Draper went on to have good career playing in the EFL and SPL. Andre Gray EFL, Prem and now in the Saudi League. Will Evans, taken a slightly longer route but now playing the same level at Mansfield. Adding to the list of Craig, Gregory, Caton, McAtee, Barnett and a few more Ross Draper is still playing (and captaining) Elgin in Scottish L2 😀 |
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Post by MartinB on Aug 20, 2024 7:12:50 GMT 1
Difference with Andre Gray is he admits being released by us was kick up backside he needed as wasn't working hard enough/taking things seriously
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Post by zenfootball2 on Aug 20, 2024 7:23:26 GMT 1
I don't think there are any easy answers to this, some clubs seem to be more effective and developing youth players who then go one to play for the club, also some players are late developers and then start to flourish.
As we don't have any reserve team football, letting them go out on loan at lower leagues makes sense they hopefully get some first team football, they have to adjust to a more physical level of football, the crucial thing is how often are they followed up and monitored and do they get the support they need to make the transition
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Post by ProudSalopian on Aug 20, 2024 10:03:44 GMT 1
Difference with Andre Gray is he admits being released by us was kick up backside he needed as wasn't working hard enough/taking things seriously Beat me to it Martin, he said himself it was the best thing that happened to him as made him wake up that he was throwing a career away. The reality is very few players get released by us and then go onto better things,, McAtee & Barnett definitely look like mistakes as got back into league football relatively quickly. With Will Evans I believe he was released as a youth player, had 6 seasons playing in LOW and didn't sign pro till he was 24, how many clubs would have been patient enough to give him a chance waiting for him to develop. And Ross Draper was released by us 17 years ago! Moore made a good point in the recent podcast where he asked the Cheltenham academy staff whether they got any enjoyment from what they were doing, imagine training players every day with very few making the first team and then come the end of the season they all get released. It's not the most satisfying role is it? And I'd imagine it's the same for us, that definitely isn't something which will change overnight. |
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trueblue89
Midland League Division Two
I'm not arguing, I'm just telling you why your wrong
Posts: 215
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Post by trueblue89 on Aug 20, 2024 13:15:39 GMT 1
Difference with Andre Gray is he admits being released by us was kick up backside he needed as wasn't working hard enough/taking things seriously Beat me to it Martin, he said himself it was the best thing that happened to him as made him wake up that he was throwing a career away. The reality is very few players get released by us and then go onto better things,, McAtee & Barnett definitely look like mistakes as got back into league football relatively quickly. With Will Evans I believe he was released as a youth player, had 6 seasons playing in LOW and didn't sign pro till he was 24, how many clubs would have been patient enough to give him a chance waiting for him to develop. And Ross Draper was released by us 17 years ago! Moore made a good point in the recent podcast where he asked the Cheltenham academy staff whether they got any enjoyment from what they were doing, imagine training players every day with very few making the first team and then come the end of the season they all get released. It's not the most satisfying role is it? And I'd imagine it's the same for us, that definitely isn't something which will change overnight. Using Draper as an example. The thing is we have been doing this for years. Releasing players instead of supporting them with loans or even mins in our first team. Its a worrying stat that the last local lad to play 50+ games for the first team is Dave Edwards who has moved on, had a full carear, returned and retired. Yes we have had the likes of Jon Taylor, Conor Goldson and even Tom Bloxham but these lads have come from other clubs academies following release. Do we really do enough as an academy? |
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Post by ProudSalopian on Aug 20, 2024 14:00:02 GMT 1
Using Draper as an example. The thing is we have been doing this for years. Of course we have been, every club releases players that then go onto prove the club wrong, we are no exception. My point is actually the amount of players that we release that prove us wrong is extremely low, in the last 17 years you can name 5 (Gray, McAtee, Barnet, Evans & Draper) and as Ive already said, I personally think only 2 of them when the club were wrong to release them. A complete guess but we release about 10 youth players a year? 10 x 17 years and all of a sudden, the number we release incorrectly looks extremely low. People will say give them games but lets take a look at a few players released, Kade Craig, went to Solihull, played regularly, is now out on loan at Brackley. Charlie Caton went to Chester, a good start but 5 goals in NLN last season. Yes I'd like these players to have been given an opportunity with us but a few years down the line they are struggling in non league, gametime will not turn them into world beaters. So the issue for me isn't about the players we are releasing, it's more about how do we attract a better standard of players and/or ensure a better standard of coaching/development within the academy? I suspect with our budget it is extremely difficult to do either of these and therefore it comes back to the question of the value for money our academy gives us. |
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Aug 20, 2024 14:37:26 GMT 1
The academy must have a significant cost to run it. Is it actually money well spent with the players that come through from it?
Discuss.
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trueblue89
Midland League Division Two
I'm not arguing, I'm just telling you why your wrong
Posts: 215
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Post by trueblue89 on Aug 21, 2024 11:18:27 GMT 1
Using Draper as an example. The thing is we have been doing this for years. Of course we have been, every club releases players that then go onto prove the club wrong, we are no exception. My point is actually the amount of players that we release that prove us wrong is extremely low, in the last 17 years you can name 5 (Gray, McAtee, Barnet, Evans & Draper) and as Ive already said, I personally think only 2 of them when the club were wrong to release them. A complete guess but we release about 10 youth players a year? 10 x 17 years and all of a sudden, the number we release incorrectly looks extremely low. People will say give them games but lets take a look at a few players released, Kade Craig, went to Solihull, played regularly, is now out on loan at Brackley. Charlie Caton went to Chester, a good start but 5 goals in NLN last season. Yes I'd like these players to have been given an opportunity with us but a few years down the line they are struggling in non league, gametime will not turn them into world beaters. So the issue for me isn't about the players we are releasing, it's more about how do we attract a better standard of players and/or ensure a better standard of coaching/development within the academy? I suspect with our budget it is extremely difficult to do either of these and therefore it comes back to the question of the value for money our academy gives us. I agree with you that we dont utilise the area enough to attract a better standard of player. The fact that a large percentage of te academy are released players from cat.1 academies and not local players. I am not a fan of the "shadow squad" idea either. |
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Post by Minormorris64 on Aug 22, 2024 10:59:55 GMT 1
The academy must have a significant cost to run it. Is it actually money well spent with the players that come through from it? Discuss. must be a fairly hefty Wage Bill looking at the number "employed" ? |
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Post by wakemanender on Aug 22, 2024 12:41:19 GMT 1
No such thing in the Gay Meadow days. Used to enjoy the midweek afternoon reserve games especially when new players had been signed or first team players were returning from injury.
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Post by vladimir on Aug 22, 2024 14:24:01 GMT 1
Think it's been raised before how heavily subsidised the academy is as part of the EPPP. This as per other premier league blackmailings effectively smashed lower leagues clubs ability to produce their own players of value to first team as they are now plucked off in their teens by the big category A academies who have budgets in the many millions. Personally think ours has done well with the output over the years and indeed before Hernes our top assets (mcatee and Barnett) were inexplicably let go.
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Post by ProudSalopian on Aug 22, 2024 14:45:42 GMT 1
No such thing in the Gay Meadow days. There was towards the end, I believe it was Jake who first created the focus on the youth development and the likes of Rodgers, Murray, Tolley, Edwards & Hart all came through it. |
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