PHBA
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 102
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Post by PHBA on Mar 1, 2024 17:16:33 GMT 1
A common discussion on social media at the minute is the financial issues surrounding a large amount of lower league clubs, many have gone to the wall recently, and Torquay/Rochdale are two others that are close....
Many people seem to think that the Uniteds, City's and Liverpools (other big clubs are available) should essentially "gift them" X-Million to bail them out...because "they can, and morally they should"
An obvious counter argument for me is why should they? it would set a precedent of lower league clubs spending beyond thier means, because they know one of the top flight clubs could help them out...
What's your thoughts
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Post by ssshrew on Mar 1, 2024 17:25:46 GMT 1
My thoughts are that the Premier League purport to want to help grassroots football and then don’t. There is an obscene amount of money there which has altered football beyond all comprehension.
I’m not sure what the ‘fit and proper’ phrase is supposed to mean when used by the EFL but they appear to be worse than useless.
I don’t think clubs that are criminally run should be bailed out but I do think actions from the Premier League should match their words and some people should never be allowed anywhere near running a football club.
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Post by Pilch on Mar 1, 2024 17:27:41 GMT 1
A common discussion on social media at the minute is the financial issues surrounding a large amount of lower league clubs, many have gone to the wall recently, and Torquay/Rochdale are two others that are close.... Many people seem to think that the Uniteds, City's and Liverpools (other big clubs are available) should essentially "gift them" X-Million to bail them out...because "they can, and morally they should" An obvious counter argument for me is why should they? it would set a precedent of lower league clubs spending beyond thier means, because they know one of the top flight clubs could help them out... What's your thoughts im not sure but I will say , certainly not whilst anyone remotely connected to previously running the club is still there,
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Post by Worthingshrew on Mar 1, 2024 17:33:58 GMT 1
Clubs living beyond their means is a constant problem, and if they get bailed out, it’s only going to get worse.
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Post by ssshrew on Mar 1, 2024 17:37:53 GMT 1
That’s why the EFL need to get tougher from the vetting of appointments and to be continually vetting accounts of clubs as well. Otherwise what are they for?
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Post by wakemanender on Mar 1, 2024 17:44:32 GMT 1
So many lower league clubs are being mismanaged by owners who have little interest in football. They are on an ego trip. They shouldn't be bailed out by bigger clubs or the Football League. It's a shame for the real supporters of such clubs. Really felt for the supporters of Bury.
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PHBA
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 102
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Post by PHBA on Mar 1, 2024 18:09:26 GMT 1
So many lower league clubs are being mismanaged by owners who have little interest in football. They are on an ego trip. They shouldn't be bailed out by bigger clubs or the Football League. It's a shame for the real supporters of such clubs. Really felt for the supporters of Bury. Quite agree. Does anyone know the basic criteria someone has to pass in order to be seen as fit and proper ?
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Post by vladimir on Mar 1, 2024 18:16:07 GMT 1
No to a bailout.
Yes to a more equitable distribution of league revenue, effective funding of grassroots and squad size limits including academy/u21s so talent can't be hoovered up and wage demands fall.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Mar 1, 2024 21:44:33 GMT 1
So many lower league clubs are being mismanaged by owners who have little interest in football. They are on an ego trip. They shouldn't be bailed out by bigger clubs or the Football League. It's a shame for the real supporters of such clubs. Really felt for the supporters of Bury. I sort of feel sorry for the supporters of Bury, but supporters of various clubs were telling them over the years that they couldnt keep spending the money they were spending indefinitely. And Bury supporters were lording it up for quite a time before it all came home to roost. That said I do hope they get back to the FL sometime in the future.
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Post by MartinB on Mar 2, 2024 8:21:37 GMT 1
So many lower league clubs are being mismanaged by owners who have little interest in football. They are on an ego trip. They shouldn't be bailed out by bigger clubs or the Football League. It's a shame for the real supporters of such clubs. Really felt for the supporters of Bury. Quite agree. Does anyone know the basic criteria someone has to pass in order to be seen as fit and proper ? I would say the Fit and Proper person test isn't fir for purpose. There is a case in the past of a convicted football hooligan passing the test and owning a club. WTF
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Post by jamo on Mar 2, 2024 8:32:04 GMT 1
No to a bailout. Yes to a more equitable distribution of league revenue, effective funding of grassroots and squad size limits including academy/u21s so talent can't be hoovered up and wage demands fall. This is it isn’t it. Although technically arn’t we to believe that our own club is currently being bailed out by the chairman and his mate to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds per month ?
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Post by davycrockett on Mar 2, 2024 9:33:53 GMT 1
No to a bailout. Yes to a more equitable distribution of league revenue, effective funding of grassroots and squad size limits including academy/u21s so talent can't be hoovered up and wage demands fall. This is it isn’t it. Although technically arn’t we to believe that our own club is currently being bailed out by the chairman and his mate to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds per month ? Not sure where you got hundreds of thousands a month? Chinese whisper?
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Post by jamo on Mar 2, 2024 10:09:38 GMT 1
This is it isn’t it. Although technically arn’t we to believe that our own club is currently being bailed out by the chairman and his mate to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds per month ? Not sure where you got hundreds of thousands a month? Chinese whisper? I’m pretty certain I got it off here. I have no idea it it is accurate or not, hence the’ arn’t we to believe’ part of the post. If they not correct then I’m very happy to acknowledge that
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Post by Pilch on Mar 2, 2024 10:15:26 GMT 1
This is it isn’t it. Although technically arn’t we to believe that our own club is currently being bailed out by the chairman and his mate to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds per month ? Not sure where you got hundreds of thousands a month? Chinese whisper? Certainly Chinese whispers , I'd be surprised if it exceeded £100k in a month , but that's not a bad estimate , probably 100s of k in the year
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Kiwi
Shropshire County League
Posts: 39
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Post by Kiwi on Mar 2, 2024 10:21:02 GMT 1
It is sad regardless of which club it has and may happen to in the future due to decisions made. Unfortunately, it always seems to be the club staff/players and fans who take the hit due to lost income or supporting that little bit more in terms of extra tickets or if the bucket gets passed or food/drink or buying from the club shop just to try do your small part in the hope it gives the club enough time for help to arrive. I wouldn't be a fan of the PL clubs bailing out lower league clubs as I feel like once you start that cycle it may become a free for all in terms of spending outside there means to achieve the dream of promotion and if we fail we get help regardless.
Sorry if I rambled or missed the point.
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Post by davycrockett on Mar 2, 2024 10:37:30 GMT 1
Not sure where you got hundreds of thousands a month? Chinese whisper? I’m pretty certain I got it off here. I have no idea it it is accurate or not, hence the’ arn’t we to believe’ part of the post. If they not correct then I’m very happy to acknowledge that Blimey don’t believe it if you got it off here 😂 From reading between the lines it’s only the last couple of months with extra income stream’s being turned on by the club to reduce the need. We’ve been told increases in incomes from the function suits with a record Christmas. A good cup run with prize money around £200k. Many ‘fire sales’ of Umbro Training gear, early release of STs at reduced price to encourage income by end of February. The figures quoted for last season overspend was initially £750k from Pilch via *** yet the club seem to be playing on it with figures of 60% budget overspend recently mentioned. We’d be in breach of FFP if that were the case, you have to give regular update on actuals versus expected spending / income. As a matter of interest when’s the AGM? I’m sure many questions will be asked and honest answers have to be given. Shareholders are entitled to know the details of how much and by who, can’t hide behind any agreements. So we await the accounts and hopefully a full explanation, misinformation kills .
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Post by dibblydobbly on Mar 2, 2024 10:41:42 GMT 1
Tricky - Premier League rely on lower divisions for players to buy, and to loan to, and many of the Championship teams (and lower) are ex-premier league. So they do need the lower divisions. As indeed we need them to buy players, and loan us some back.
We were forced to play through during Covid, and as the lower leagues depend more heavily on supporters turning up week to week than Premier League clubs, so were in effect forced to trade at a lower level/loss than would normally be the case.
No right answer, but clarity and consistency is what we need most, fair deal yes, but also a deal that lasts so we know what our constraints are in to the medium term.
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Post by Pilch on Mar 2, 2024 10:48:35 GMT 1
I’m pretty certain I got it off here. I have no idea it it is accurate or not, hence the’ arn’t we to believe’ part of the post. If they not correct then I’m very happy to acknowledge that Blimey don’t believe it if you got it off here 😂 From reading between the lines it’s only the last couple of months with extra income stream’s being turned on by the club to reduce the need. We’ve been told increases in incomes from the function suits with a record Christmas. A good cup run with prize money around £200k. Many ‘fire sales’ of Umbro Training gear, early release of STs at reduced price to encourage income by end of February. The figures quoted for last season overspend was initially £750k from Pilch via *** yet the club seem to be playing on it with figures of 60% budget overspend recently mentioned. We’d be in breach of FFP if that were the case, you have to give regular update on actuals versus expected spending / income. As a matter of interest when’s the AGM? I’m sure many questions will be asked and honest answers have to be given. Shareholders are entitled to know the details of how much and by who, can’t hide behind any agreements. So we await the accounts and hopefully a full explanation, misinformation kills . it might just be 60% over the budget we set for ourselves , and not over our FFP allowance Saying that I think though not sure we are safe from ffp if our losses are lower than £5m over 3 years
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Post by davycrockett on Mar 2, 2024 10:53:12 GMT 1
Blimey don’t believe it if you got it off here 😂 From reading between the lines it’s only the last couple of months with extra income stream’s being turned on by the club to reduce the need. We’ve been told increases in incomes from the function suits with a record Christmas. A good cup run with prize money around £200k. Many ‘fire sales’ of Umbro Training gear, early release of STs at reduced price to encourage income by end of February. The figures quoted for last season overspend was initially £750k from Pilch via *** yet the club seem to be playing on it with figures of 60% budget overspend recently mentioned. We’d be in breach of FFP if that were the case, you have to give regular update on actuals versus expected spending / income. As a matter of interest when’s the AGM? I’m sure many questions will be asked and honest answers have to be given. Shareholders are entitled to know the details of how much and by who, can’t hide behind any agreements. So we await the accounts and hopefully a full explanation, misinformation kills . it might just be 60% over the budget we set for ourselves , and not over our FFP allowance Saying that I think though not sure we are safe from ffp if our losses are lower than £5m over 3 years It’s not based on cumulative losses but income v playing budget as a percentage I think 🤔 (put simply)
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Post by dibblydobbly on Mar 2, 2024 10:59:18 GMT 1
I’m pretty certain I got it off here. I have no idea it it is accurate or not, hence the’ arn’t we to believe’ part of the post. If they not correct then I’m very happy to acknowledge that Blimey don’t believe it if you got it off here 😂 From reading between the lines it’s only the last couple of months with extra income stream’s being turned on by the club to reduce the need. We’ve been told increases in incomes from the function suits with a record Christmas. A good cup run with prize money around £200k. Many ‘fire sales’ of Umbro Training gear, early release of STs at reduced price to encourage income by end of February. The figures quoted for last season overspend was initially £750k from Pilch via *** yet the club seem to be playing on it with figures of 60% budget overspend recently mentioned. We’d be in breach of FFP if that were the case, you have to give regular update on actuals versus expected spending / income. As a matter of interest when’s the AGM? I’m sure many questions will be asked and honest answers have to be given. Shareholders are entitled to know the details of how much and by who, can’t hide behind any agreements. So we await the accounts and hopefully a full explanation, misinformation kills . Externally Audited Accounts will be filed at Companies House by 31st March, I am sure it will all be on there. Not aware that the AGM date has been set, I am sure it will happen, the club is strictly not obliged to have one as they were done away with as legal requirement, form dictates that it will happen, I for one am looking forward to it, as you say it will bring some clarity. Your list of income items certainly details many visible items, but the comment on FFP is not entirely accurate, SCMP/FFP is pegged to other metrics than the internal budget set by the club. It will be vigorously monitored internally and externally as you say.
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Post by ssshrew on Mar 2, 2024 11:59:20 GMT 1
Tricky - Premier League rely on lower divisions for players to buy, and to loan to, and many of the Championship teams (and lower) are ex-premier league. So they do need the lower divisions. As indeed we need them to buy players, and loan us some back. We were forced to play through during Covid, and as the lower leagues depend more heavily on supporters turning up week to week than Premier League clubs, so were in effect forced to trade at a lower level/loss than would normally be the case. No right answer, but clarity and consistency is what we need most, fair deal yes, but also a deal that lasts so we know what our constraints are in to the medium term. Strange I thought a hell of a lot of Premier League rely on foreign players to buy.
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Post by tarporleyblue on Mar 2, 2024 12:10:07 GMT 1
Blimey don’t believe it if you got it off here 😂 From reading between the lines it’s only the last couple of months with extra income stream’s being turned on by the club to reduce the need. We’ve been told increases in incomes from the function suits with a record Christmas. A good cup run with prize money around £200k. Many ‘fire sales’ of Umbro Training gear, early release of STs at reduced price to encourage income by end of February. The figures quoted for last season overspend was initially £750k from Pilch via *** yet the club seem to be playing on it with figures of 60% budget overspend recently mentioned. We’d be in breach of FFP if that were the case, you have to give regular update on actuals versus expected spending / income. As a matter of interest when’s the AGM? I’m sure many questions will be asked and honest answers have to be given. Shareholders are entitled to know the details of how much and by who, can’t hide behind any agreements. So we await the accounts and hopefully a full explanation, misinformation kills . Externally Audited Accounts will be filed at Companies House by 31st March, I am sure it will all be on there. Not aware that the AGM date has been set, I am sure it will happen, the club is strictly not obliged to have one as they were done away with as legal requirement, form dictates that it will happen, I for one am looking forward to it, as you say it will bring some clarity. Your list of income items certainly details many visible items, but the comment on FFP is not entirely accurate, SCMP/FFP is pegged to other metrics than the internal budget set by the club. It will be vigorously monitored internally and externally as you say. I assume, correct me if I'm wrong, but will the AGM only be open to shareholders?
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Post by davycrockett on Mar 2, 2024 12:14:49 GMT 1
Blimey don’t believe it if you got it off here 😂 From reading between the lines it’s only the last couple of months with extra income stream’s being turned on by the club to reduce the need. We’ve been told increases in incomes from the function suits with a record Christmas. A good cup run with prize money around £200k. Many ‘fire sales’ of Umbro Training gear, early release of STs at reduced price to encourage income by end of February. The figures quoted for last season overspend was initially £750k from Pilch via *** yet the club seem to be playing on it with figures of 60% budget overspend recently mentioned. We’d be in breach of FFP if that were the case, you have to give regular update on actuals versus expected spending / income. As a matter of interest when’s the AGM? I’m sure many questions will be asked and honest answers have to be given. Shareholders are entitled to know the details of how much and by who, can’t hide behind any agreements. So we await the accounts and hopefully a full explanation, misinformation kills . Externally Audited Accounts will be filed at Companies House by 31st March, I am sure it will all be on there. Not aware that the AGM date has been set, I am sure it will happen, the club is strictly not obliged to have one as they were done away with as legal requirement, form dictates that it will happen, I for one am looking forward to it, as you say it will bring some clarity. Your list of income items certainly details many visible items, but the comment on FFP is not entirely accurate, SCMP/FFP is pegged to other metrics than the internal budget set by the club. It will be vigorously monitored internally and externally as you say. Referring to an AGM, there’s always been one I believe so to decide against would cause significant concerns. It really would be best for the club to be honest and open and quell rumour and gossip. Picking up the last line, a pre season estimate of expected Income with regular updates during the season. My point is if a massive overspend, someone said let’s say 60%, then any overspend can’t have come as to much of a surprise 😮 If hidden then very difficult to comply with the regular updates with any accuracy. Interesting times for many clubs even those well run so the OPs questions a good one but IF extra ‘help’ was given from above clubs would just spend more to maintain a competitive edge. Were also looking forward to the annual report from Ant Thomas. “ Shrewsbury Town Football Club’s accounts for the 2021/22 financial year have been released and shared with Town's shareholders.
As with previous seasons, Salop supporter Ant Thomas has prepared a full and detailed report to help explain the accounts to all of our supporters.”
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Post by Pilch on Mar 2, 2024 12:19:06 GMT 1
Tricky - Premier League rely on lower divisions for players to buy, and to loan to, and many of the Championship teams (and lower) are ex-premier league. So they do need the lower divisions. As indeed we need them to buy players, and loan us some back. We were forced to play through during Covid, and as the lower leagues depend more heavily on supporters turning up week to week than Premier League clubs, so were in effect forced to trade at a lower level/loss than would normally be the case. No right answer, but clarity and consistency is what we need most, fair deal yes, but also a deal that lasts so we know what our constraints are in to the medium term. Strange I thought a hell of a lot of Premier League rely on foreign players to buy. since brexit they can no longer sign up hoards of potential kids so have to hunt in the uk now , they can of course sign anyone but they have to qualify through various criteria to get a work permit ,, ( which the kids don't ) its straight forward for top players but again hits the lower leagues , like we had to wait for mata
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Post by ssshrew on Mar 2, 2024 12:23:26 GMT 1
So we might see more future England players in the Premier League in future? No bad thing.
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Post by Pilch on Mar 2, 2024 13:07:28 GMT 1
good for that respect but not for the likes of town , who as you can guess will be looking further down the pyramid ( or Ireland 🙄) for young talent
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Post by tarporleyblue on Mar 2, 2024 13:14:53 GMT 1
So we might see more future England players in the Premier League in future? No bad thing. We could do with a few more Welsh players in the PL too
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Post by ssshrew on Mar 2, 2024 13:38:13 GMT 1
Indeed. I’m sure there are quite a few missing out. It’s another one of my pet bugbears about the Premier League.
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Post by Minormorris64 on Mar 2, 2024 20:29:59 GMT 1
All football lives beyond its means end of
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Post by vladimir on Mar 2, 2024 20:38:15 GMT 1
Tricky - Premier League rely on lower divisions for players to buy, and to loan to, and many of the Championship teams (and lower) are ex-premier league. So they do need the lower divisions. As indeed we need them to buy players, and loan us some back. We were forced to play through during Covid, and as the lower leagues depend more heavily on supporters turning up week to week than Premier League clubs, so were in effect forced to trade at a lower level/loss than would normally be the case. No right answer, but clarity and consistency is what we need most, fair deal yes, but also a deal that lasts so we know what our constraints are in to the medium term. Don't believe they rely on lower league clubs for anything. They loan to lower league clubs out of convenience because they are allowed to hoarde 20/30 19-24 year olds and put them on more money than most championship clubs. I know for a fact that 10 years ago wolves were giving their 16 year olds 40k a year in their youth system. It is only the fan backlash to a breakaway (much like the superleague) as to why the bigger 10/15 clubs haven't broken away into their own franchise Premier league completely seperate of the league system. The gulfs are enormous and would require regulators to take strong action to make a more healthy and equitable system. This won't happen. UK Football is a near perfect mirror of UK politics.
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