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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 20, 2023 7:02:43 GMT 1
Crazy, crazy days. I can't say Farage is my cup of tea but even so this is a concern. Very much a continuation of what we saw in Canada and also with PayPal looking to close accounts earlier this year.
First thing first I think its clear that banking is an essential service. I mean you pretty much need a bank account to get a job, to get paid, to pay for bills, to rent and buy accommodation (and more besides no doubt). Its something that someone would be hard pressed to do without. So with that said, its a concern to see banks now looking to cut ties with customers because of their political views. I mean the repercussions of this are pretty sinister, we'll be in a place where banks (and others) will become the arbiter of what is an is not accepted opinion. Those deemed to be guilty of thoughtcrime will be canceled and silenced.
If Farage does have it right...
...then Coutts nor the BBC don't come out of this very well at all. As apparently the BBC reporter who reported that the account was closed for commercial reasons was sat alongside the bank chief at some event the night before they released the story. So not only would Coutts be lying, the BBC ran with it anyhow and released details of Farage's finances. So if true they were looking to cover up the real reason they cut ties with Farage and the BBC we happy to play the useful idiot. If true, not good.
And this is not the first time it has been reported that people are seeing their accounts closed.
So good that the government are now looking to take action but again when it comes to the culture wars instigated and propagated by the identitarian "left" they are constantly caught on their heels and playing catchup. They have got to start being more proactive, more so now as things start to take a more authoritarian turn.
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Post by mattmw on Jul 20, 2023 8:04:49 GMT 1
A financial blogger - Francess Coppola (not that one) on twitter has gone through the Farage " dosier" and indicates that Coutts bank had acknowledged Farages political PEP "risk" for some time - certainly pre 2016 and all the way through the delivery of brexit. But as he had a large amount of cash in his account and a big mortgage he met their threshold of being a customer. However he paid off the mortgage in full 2 years ago so was no longer as profitable for the bank - ie he was making money from them, and together with his PEP status the bank the decision to close the Coutts account. Although was offered a standard Natwest account from their portfolio so was not " debanked" in anyway
The Coutts element of the business is very selective who it has as customers. But then other banks are as well as the Cooperative Bank has a long tradition of not taking on companies and individuals whose ethics it doesn't agree with.
As Martin Lewis pointed out on ITV yesterday is a slightly odd situation in the UK that no one has the automatic right to a bank account and over 1 million people in the UK don't have access to one which makes a lot of their transactions difficult and expensive. I'd be against the government getting involved in Banking decisions - just imagine what someone like Corbyn would have done with those powers - but think the universal right to a bank account should be looked at
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 20, 2023 10:39:20 GMT 1
Its all about opinions. And of course perhaps more will come out in time. But I'm pretty sure the bank, through the BBC, tried to push the line that the decision was solely a commercial one. I think the dossier and its contents blow that out of the water from the off. So it looks as though they lied on that and in doing so, perhaps shared specifics about Farage's account (which may or may not be allowed, not sure on that). From reading the dossier to me its clear they were looking to close his account for political reasons and were just looking to tie that in to when his mortgage expired (indeed would have done so sooner had anything come up in the mean time). I just don't think banks should be operating in this manner. If there is no criminality then an individuals politics shouldn't come into play. Good to see the government looking to take action and to be fair from the looks, swift action at that.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 20, 2023 12:14:47 GMT 1
Farage can get the publicity, but there are those who cannot get banking faciities at all. Those people find it difficult to get a job too because there's no bank account to transfer your money into.
Coutts is owned by NatWest, all they wanted to do was move him from an "elite" account to an ordinary person's type account.
Mayve they should look at credit cards, they exclude people all the time? Those more on the breadline get the worst credit card terms.
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Post by mattmw on Jul 20, 2023 12:26:31 GMT 1
Its all about opinions. And of course perhaps more will come out in time. But I'm pretty sure the bank, through the BBC, tried to push the line that the decision was solely a commercial one. I think the dossier and its contents blow that out of the water from the off. So it looks as though they lied on that and in doing so, perhaps shared specifics about Farage's account (which may or may not be allowed, not sure on that). From reading the dossier to me its clear they were looking to close his account for political reasons and were just looking to tie that in to when his mortgage expired (indeed would have done so sooner had anything come up in the mean time). I just don't think banks should be operating in this manner. If there is no criminality then an individuals politics shouldn't come into play. Good to see the government looking to take action and to be fair from the looks, swift action at that. I think it’s more profit for the bank than politics to be honest. If they were going for him politically then why wait until now to chuck him out when it would have been far more damaging to Farage and the Brexit campaign to have done it in 2016 or 2019 than now He’s just an average Joe now not making them much cash so downgraded his account. But let’s make a conspiracy out of it to make Nigel a bit more cash The same bank literally suitcases of cash from the Saudis one behalf of the then prince Charles charity fund and has far worse characters on their books from Russia and the far east, but happily keep them on the books as they make a load of cash for the bank Should also be stated all the evidence in the public domain has come Farage not the bank themselves, who quite rightly aren’t commenting.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 20, 2023 12:52:35 GMT 1
Its all about opinions. And of course perhaps more will come out in time. But I'm pretty sure the bank, through the BBC, tried to push the line that the decision was solely a commercial one. I think the dossier and its contents blow that out of the water from the off. So it looks as though they lied on that and in doing so, perhaps shared specifics about Farage's account (which may or may not be allowed, not sure on that). From reading the dossier to me its clear they were looking to close his account for political reasons and were just looking to tie that in to when his mortgage expired (indeed would have done so sooner had anything come up in the mean time). I just don't think banks should be operating in this manner. If there is no criminality then an individuals politics shouldn't come into play. Good to see the government looking to take action and to be fair from the looks, swift action at that. I think it’s more profit for the bank than politics to be honest. If they were going for him politically then why wait until now to chuck him out when it would have been far more damaging to Farage and the Brexit campaign to have done it in 2016 or 2019 than now He’s just an average Joe now not making them much cash so downgraded his account. But let’s make a conspiracy out of it to make Nigel a bit more cash The same bank literally suitcases of cash from the Saudis one behalf of the then prince Charles charity fund and has far worse characters on their books from Russia and the far east, but happily keep them on the books as they make a load of cash for the bank Should also be stated all the evidence in the public domain has come Farage not the bank themselves, who quite rightly aren’t commenting. I'm sure you and a good few others will see it that way but like I say, its all about opinions. As to why now, because we have seen many and more organizations, such as banks, embracing such things as DEI (as well as Coutts' focusing on climate change). On those fronts, from what we see anyhow, Farage's views do not align with Coutts. And a conspiracy? Strange take for me. I mean that would very much depend on the dossier and whether it is real or not. If it is then I'm hard pushed to understand anyone who would dismiss it as such. As its there for all to see. Unless its not authentic of course then more than happy to stand corrected.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 20, 2023 13:12:31 GMT 1
A financial blogger - Francess Coppola (not that one) ...I guess this one?
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Post by mattmw on Jul 20, 2023 13:13:58 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 20, 2023 13:38:09 GMT 1
Good stuff, although I do hope there was a couple of drag queens twerking alongside as the statement was read.
Anyhow, looks as though they are choosing their words wisely...
"it is not Coutts' policy to close customer accounts solely on the basis of legally held political and personal views".
...I guess they don't really have anywhere else to go if that dossier is genuine.
And looks as though they only offered him an account at NatWest once he'd lost his Coutts account and gone public that he was unable to open another account elsewhere. As in, it looks as though they offered him a new account after he had kicked up a fuss.
Still, this is good to see...
"We look forward to working with the government, the regulator and the wider industry to ensure that universal access to banking is maintained."
Lets hope this gets nailed down before it happens to others (plenty of whom won't have the profile to push back as Farage has). As I have no doubt this is the sort of thing that will become more prevalent if allowed to continue.
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Post by mattmw on Jul 20, 2023 16:41:03 GMT 1
Based on who donate to the Conservative Party I confidently predict the regulatory review will deliver zero change.
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Post by martinshrew on Jul 20, 2023 20:17:08 GMT 1
Big apology from Coutts, they've dropped a massive one here.
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Post by Worthingshrew on Jul 20, 2023 21:55:11 GMT 1
I’d also like some apologies from Farage, about you know what.
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Post by wookeywombat on Jul 21, 2023 2:58:11 GMT 1
Farage the pint drinking man of the people with a Coutts account doesn't really fit.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 21, 2023 6:51:12 GMT 1
Big apology from Coutts, they've dropped a massive one here. Not sure it is to be honest, it looks neither here nor there. Whether this will be the end of the focus on Coutts I'm unsure. I do think though that he had his account closed because of his politics. I think this is good from Andrew Neil... ...and how I saw things from reading the dossier. As is this... This is a new form of McCarthyismIt'll be interesting if anything more comes out about the discussion had between Alison Rose and Simon Jack before the latter reported on the closure of the account the next day. Another aspect of this that I find fascinating, weird and hilarious in equal measure is so many of today's "left" on social media rushing to the defense of a bank. And not only that, a bank that tailors to the super rich. Like I say, crazy days.
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Post by armchairfan on Jul 21, 2023 9:50:54 GMT 1
It will come as no surprise to most that I subscribe entirely to the views expressed by Andrew Neil: sinister, absolutely! I am not in the least bewildered nor fascinated that the "Left" on social media have leaped to the defence of this bank - a BANK for heavens sake - as it must, at all costs, try to sustain the absurd narrative that all these tales of "wokeism" in action are nothing more than evidence of right-wing conspiracies, and therefore, beneath contempt; hence, anyone who has the effrontery to challenge the opinions of the Left, must instantly become a "non person" and face accusations of being a fascist/Nazi/misogynist/anti-semite (the list is endless). We ordinary mortals can simply laugh off such insane attacks, as I did once when I was directly accused of being involved in the murder of Hilda Murrell many years ago, but for one with a public reputation to preserve, an entitlement to self-defence must be presumed; I can't say that I agree entirely with Mr Farage's views, but he is entitled to them, and I take the Voltaire stance on that.
I accept that there are many who are unable to access the banking system, but that is simply obfuscation, and not relevant to the core issues: if a bank can treat one customer in such a way, it becomes a precedent, capable of being used against anyone - frightening, scary, and yes, VERY sinister.
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Post by martinshrew on Jul 21, 2023 10:03:14 GMT 1
I can't say that I agree entirely with Mr Farage's views, but he is entitled to them, and I take the Voltaire stance on that. I accept that there are many who are unable to access the banking system, but that is simply obfuscation, and not relevant to the core issues: if a bank can treat one customer in such a way, it becomes a precedent, capable of being used against anyone - frightening, scary, and yes, VERY sinister. Very well thought out, you're bang on the money by the way. You can disagree with everything Farage says, but the fact remains that he holds perfectly legal views of a political nature. You don't have to agree at all with said views of Farage to disagree completely with how the bank has handled this and the dangerous president it could set.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 21, 2023 10:13:52 GMT 1
A part of the capitalist system is choice, including choice for the provider of a service. If Farage was on his way to a football match he would find he was barred from some pubs, but there are other pubs, as long as he is not shunned by every pub then just accept it and enjoy choosing another one. Farage isn't barred from having an account, just from having an account at Coutts, I'd wager pretty much all of us are barred from having an account at Coutts simply because we haven't got enough money.
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Post by martinshrew on Jul 21, 2023 11:07:25 GMT 1
A part of the capitalist system is choice, including choice for the provider of a service. If Farage was on his way to a football match he would find he was barred from some pubs, but there are other pubs, as long as he is not shunned by every pub then just accept it and enjoy choosing another one. Farage isn't barred from having an account, just from having an account at Coutts, I'd wager pretty much all of us are barred from having an account at Coutts simply because we haven't got enough money. That's the point, it's not about money, it's completely about his political opinions, which are legal by the way? If it was because he was below the wealth threshold then like he said himself, no problem. Can you imagine how up in arms people would be if Coutts wouldn't give someone an account because they were pro-trans, pro-abortion, where does it stop? If you can't see the danger here, there's no helping you. You can hate Nigel Farage with a passion and still think this is completely wrong and dangerous.
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jul 21, 2023 11:20:55 GMT 1
A part of the capitalist system is choice, including choice for the provider of a service. If Farage was on his way to a football match he would find he was barred from some pubs, but there are other pubs, as long as he is not shunned by every pub then just accept it and enjoy choosing another one. Farage isn't barred from having an account, just from having an account at Coutts, I'd wager pretty much all of us are barred from having an account at Coutts simply because we haven't got enough money. That's the point, it's not about money, it's completely about his political opinions, which are legal by the way? If it was because he was below the wealth threshold then like he said himself, no problem. Can you imagine how up in arms people would be if Coutts wouldn't give someone an account because they were pro-trans, pro-abortion, where does it stop? If you can't see the danger here, there's no helping you. You can hate Nigel Farage with a passion and still think this is completely wrong and dangerous. No offence but he is a [redacted] and he's getting some good publicity out of this. From what I gather he used to have a Mortgage with them which meant he met the requirements to hold an account with them, his mortgage finished and he didn't meet the income requirements so they had a review and decided to close his account. That's all there is to it, not everything has to be a culture war.
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Post by martinshrew on Jul 21, 2023 11:25:50 GMT 1
That's the point, it's not about money, it's completely about his political opinions, which are legal by the way? If it was because he was below the wealth threshold then like he said himself, no problem. Can you imagine how up in arms people would be if Coutts wouldn't give someone an account because they were pro-trans, pro-abortion, where does it stop? If you can't see the danger here, there's no helping you. You can hate Nigel Farage with a passion and still think this is completely wrong and dangerous. No offence but he is a grifter and he's getting some good publicity out of this. From what I gather he used to have a Mortgage with them which meant he met the requirements to hold an account with them, his mortgage finished and he didn't meet the income requirements so they had a review and decided to close his account. That's all there is to it, not everything has to be a culture war. He has a document which dispels your theory, read through it, all points to political viewpoint; nothing to do with no meeting it's terms. In particular pages 3 and 10 of the document. I dislike Corbyn with a bubbling passion but if this was the other way round I'd defend him completely. Whilst his politics turn my stomach, they're perfectly legal beliefs that he's entitled too.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 21, 2023 11:41:52 GMT 1
No offence but he is a grifter and he's getting some good publicity out of this. culture war.He has a document which dispels your theory, read through it, allFrom what I gather he used to have a Mortgage with them which meant he met the requirements to hold an account with them, his mortgage finished and he didn't meet the income requirements so they had a review and decided to close his account. That's all there is to it, not everything has to be apoints to political viewpoint; nothing to do with no meeting it's terms. In particular pages 3 and 10 of the document. I dislike Corbyn with a bubbling passion but if this was the other way round I'd defend him completely. Whilst his politics turn my stomach, they're perfectly legal beliefs that he's entitled too. Mr Farage is, as usual, milking this for all the publicity and appearance fees he can get. He's not being barred from bank accounts, just one firm.
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Post by armchairfan on Jul 21, 2023 11:46:50 GMT 1
I note the statement that Mr Farage is a "grifter",being a person engaged in unlawful activities, which, in legal terms fall to be dealt with under various aspects of the criminal law, for example theft, larceny or fraud; as such, this amounts to slander,unless the statement can be found to be true. May I respectfully suggest that you repeat this accusation in a more public forum, and await the inevitable legal proceedings; any damages which may result either way can be, by agreement of the parties, be donated to STFC, to fill RW's financial black hole. Seriously, be careful with your choice of words.
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Post by mattmw on Jul 21, 2023 11:49:42 GMT 1
Big apology from Coutts, they've dropped a massive one here. Not sure it is to be honest, it looks neither here nor there. Whether this will be the end of the focus on Coutts I'm unsure. I do think though that he had his account closed because of his politics. I think this is good from Andrew Neil... ...and how I saw things from reading the dossier. As is this... This is a new form of McCarthyismIt'll be interesting if anything more comes out about the discussion had between Alison Rose and Simon Jack before the latter reported on the closure of the account the next day. Another aspect of this that I find fascinating, weird and hilarious in equal measure is so many of today's "left" on social media rushing to the defense of a bank. And not only that, a bank that tailors to the super rich. Like I say, crazy days. Is definitely a strange time with left wingers rushing to defend Coutts and right wingers clamouring for commercial banks - the very heart of capitalism - to be regulated by the Government Think it’s a very fair point that if say biased in the banking system needs careful consideration and if organsisations such as Just Stop Oil, refugee support groups and legal firms representing criminals started to have their ability to bank and raise funds there would also be an outcry Against that I guess banks do have to hold some personal information and files on us all to guard against fraud, money laundering and in some cases influences of foreign governments, what seems a bit murky is how banks hold that information and how it’s used by the corporations as a whole One thing that does interest me is how Farage got the dossier - don’t think it was via a freedom of information request so possibly a senior member of the banks management gave it him, and whether they were kind of whistle blowing from within the bank
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jul 21, 2023 11:56:52 GMT 1
I note the statement that Mr Farage is a "grifter",being a person engaged in unlawful activities, which, in legal terms fall to be dealt with under various aspects of the criminal law, for example theft, larceny or fraud; as such, this amounts to slander,unless the statement can be found to be true. May I respectfully suggest that you repeat this accusation in a more public forum, and await the inevitable legal proceedings; any damages which may result either way can be, by agreement of the parties, be donated to STFC, to fill RW's financial black hole. Seriously, be careful with your choice of words. Noted and redacted. But I do have to laugh that a throwaway comment on blue and amber could end up with being sued, imagine what the early days of the internet were like and what used to be said!
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Post by mattmw on Jul 21, 2023 11:57:31 GMT 1
No offence but he is a grifter and he's getting some good publicity out of this. From what I gather he used to have a Mortgage with them which meant he met the requirements to hold an account with them, his mortgage finished and he didn't meet the income requirements so they had a review and decided to close his account. That's all there is to it, not everything has to be a culture war. He has a document which dispels your theory, read through it, all points to political viewpoint; nothing to do with no meeting it's terms. In particular pages 3 and 10 of the document. I dislike Corbyn with a bubbling passion but if this was the other way round I'd defend him completely. Whilst his politics turn my stomach, they're perfectly legal beliefs that he's entitled too. Just posted this but do we know the source of that document? Genuine question. Is it an FOI or a leak within the bank. Do we know if all the banks information on Farage has been released or are we only seeing the sections Farage has released. However there is a section in the report Farage has shared that specifically mentions the mortgage being paid off and being part of the banks decision. So it is listed as part of the decision making even if it’s not the single criteria I've tried to add a screen shot but failed miserably! but the text says "Reccomendation is to retain NF for now. However, it was noted that NF currently has a mortgae with Coutts, which is due to expire in July 2023 and on which, on a commercial basis we would not look to renew and so would suggest winding down the connection on that basis" The report is being circulated on social media though if anyone wants to check the source material
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Post by armchairfan on Jul 21, 2023 12:43:12 GMT 1
I note the statement that Mr Farage is a "grifter",being a person engaged in unlawful activities, which, in legal terms fall to be dealt with under various aspects of the criminal law, for example theft, larceny or fraud; as such, this amounts to slander,unless the statement can be found to be true. May I respectfully suggest that you repeat this accusation in a more public forum, and await the inevitable legal proceedings; any damages which may result either way can be, by agreement of the parties, be donated to STFC, to fill RW's financial black hole. Seriously, be careful with your choice of words. Noted and redacted. But I do have to laugh that a throwaway comment on blue and amber could end up with being sued, imagine what the early days of the internet were like and what used to be said! Thanks for that!👍 Yes, indeed, and I did indeed accept it as a "throwaway" comment, and not a serious accusation, on a fairly obscure site. However, it is a fact that both major political parties are constantly looking for historic comments on social media from public figures, in order to question their suitability for office, so care should be exercised at all times; slander is slander, whatever the forum. The warning applies to each one of us.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 21, 2023 12:57:20 GMT 1
A part of the capitalist system is choice, including choice for the provider of a service. If Farage was on his way to a football match he would find he was barred from some pubs, but there are other pubs, as long as he is not shunned by every pub then just accept it and enjoy choosing another one. Farage isn't barred from having an account, just from having an account at Coutts, I'd wager pretty much all of us are barred from having an account at Coutts simply because we haven't got enough money. That's the point, it's not about money, it's completely about his political opinions, which are legal by the way? If it was because he was below the wealth threshold then like he said himself, no problem. Can you imagine how up in arms people would be if Coutts wouldn't give someone an account because they were pro-trans, pro-abortion, where does it stop? If you can't see the danger here, there's no helping you. You can hate Nigel Farage with a passion and still think this is completely wrong and dangerous. Provided they comply with all the anti discriminatory laws, aren't firms free to chose who they do business with?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 21, 2023 13:53:34 GMT 1
Farage was able to get the dossier through something called a Subject Access Request which I gather anyone can use to get details from your bank (perhaps other businesses too). He says he will now submit a second to try and find out whether his account was discussed by Alison Rose and Simon Jack the night before Jack released an article saying the decision was purely a commercial one. That's clearly not the case when looking to the dossier (which is available online if anyone is interested), as in it was because his values and opinions do not align with those of the bank (and they were using the mortgage expiry as a cover). I think Andrew Neil's summary above hits the nail on the head.
Just to add, seems one or two more who have had their accounts closed with no reason given will now look to do the same.
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Post by mattmw on Jul 21, 2023 14:50:15 GMT 1
Farage was able to get the dossier through something called a Subject Access Request which I gather anyone can use to get details from your bank (perhaps other businesses too). He says he will now submit a second to try and find out whether his account was discussed by Alison RAlison ose and Simon Jack the night before Jack released an article saying the decision was purely a commercial one. That's clearly not the case when looking to the dossier (which is available online if anyone is interested), as in it was because his values and opinions do not align with those of the bank (and they were using the mortgage expiry as a cover). I think Andrew Neil's summary above hits the nail on the head. Just to add, seems one or two more who have had their accounts closed with no reason given will now look to do the same. Thanks that explains it Subject Access Requirements are part of the 2018 GDPR Act which allow people to request information held about them by an organisation. Thought that was the case but wasn't sure. Deal with a lot of these in my day job The way Coutts have laid theirs out is a bit odd and quite clumsy for a big organisation as it seems to miss some classifications of data they might hold out, but it could well be Farage didn't ask for those as they aren't relevant or he's chosen not to share them Whilst they do release a lot of information to an individual there are a number of exceptions to the data that has to be released including any that maybe relevant to a criminal or civil case, fraud, issues of safeguarding or national or commercial sensitivity. So potentially the dossier might not contain all the information they hold. The whole thing does seem to have been very clumsly done by Coultts which is surprising for such a big organisation. You would assume that if indeed Alison Rose and Simon Jack did speak about the case they didn't write it down or record it, if it is written down and available through the GDPR legislation that could be dynamite for the company
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 25, 2023 23:12:22 GMT 1
Is it just me, and the banks, and the BBC, who are fed up of seeing Farage's mug in the papers every day about this?
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