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Post by northwestman on Jun 7, 2023 19:16:20 GMT 1
bylinetimes.com/2023/06/07/plans-for-a-mass-tactical-voting-campaign-to-defeat-an-unholy-alliance-of-conservatives-and-reform-uk/Plans are afoot to launch the UK’s biggest ever tactical voting project ahead of the next General Election after a mega-poll of thousands of voters showed Labour’s lead is now vulnerable. Following the success of grassroots campaign Stop the Tories – a tactical voting effort in May’s local elections in England – Best for Britain is now planning the biggest ever push to encourage people to vote for the party that is best placed to beat the Conservatives next year. It will be launched around six months before next year’s General Election. Best for Britain ran tactical voting advice in 2017 and twice in 2019 for the national elections. But next year the group aims to step its work up a gear. Byline Times understands the new site will feature data on how much NHS waiting lists have risen under the Tories, changes in crime and poverty for every seat. Almost every seat will have a tactical voting recommendation, except a couple of SNP/Labour marginals in Scotland.
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rob62
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Post by rob62 on Jun 7, 2023 19:44:42 GMT 1
It seems fairly clear that while traditional Red Wall Labour voters gave returned to the fold, many people are not convinced by Stammer.
Don't know / none of the above is reported as being a large chunk of the electorate.
I for one are not convinced that Labour will win an outright majority.
Tactical voting may deliver a Labour victory, but Labour need to accept that they have no chance in traditional solid Tory seats and let the Lib Dems take the fight to the Tories
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2023 5:47:36 GMT 1
It seems fairly clear that while traditional Red Wall Labour voters gave returned to the fold, many people are not convinced by Stammer. Don't know / none of the above is reported as being a large chunk of the electorate. I for one are not convinced that Labour will win an outright majority. Tactical voting may deliver a Labour victory, but Labour need to accept that they have no chance in traditional solid Tory seats and let the Lib Dems take the fight to the Tories I am a dyed in the wool Labour voter, party member and member of the parish and town council. I do not trust Starmer at all. His ten pledges were ripped up before the leadership vote had even concluded, he is pushing out long experienced left of centre politicians in favour of more right wing candidates (look at what's happening in the north east with Jamie Driscoll).
I too am not convinced that Starmer can deliver, because people are beginning to see through his lies and general dishonesty and see nothing more than a Tory in a red tie. People have had enough of dishonest politicians who are constantly looking out for themselves and their backers and want to see some level of decency in Westminster.
I would be more than happy to see a hung parliament with labour as the largest party, but without the almost absolute power that goes with a huge majority.
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Post by armchairfan on Jun 10, 2023 11:01:14 GMT 1
With all the goings-on (real or imagined) within the Conservative Party, it is pleasing to be reminded of the differences within the Labour Party, which appear to me to be a deep philosophical chasm, rather than debates about Policy.....
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Post by northwestman on Jun 10, 2023 12:15:51 GMT 1
Tactical voting will be essential in Dorries' constituency. The Lib Dems are the only party capable of overturning a 24,664 Tory majority. Ignore the fact that the Lib Dems only came 3rd in the 2019 General Election. It was the same situation for Helen Morgan in North Shropshire, and look how well she did. Most of the 38,692 who voted Tory will not be prepared to switch to Labour, but many will be likely to defect to the Lib Dems. Labour supporters need to pick up on this and switch their votes accordingly. To me, Mid Bedfordshire and North Shropshire have striking similarities. In the 2019 General Election, Owen Paterson had a 22,949 majority with Helen Morgan a poor 3rd. electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2019-12-12/Results/Location/Constituency/Mid%20Bedfordshire/electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2019-12-12/results/Location/Constituency/North%20Shropshireen.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_North_Shropshire_by-election. But if the 12.4% who abandoned Labour in the 2021 North Shropshire by election had not done so, then the Tory would have won the seat. As Carol Vorderman has constantly pointed out, in the absence of PR, tactical voting is essential in these sort of contests. Latest odds from Ladbrokes for the Mid Beds by election. Lib Dems 1/3, Conservatives 5/2, Labour 12/1. And the bookies got it right in North Shropshire. |
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Post by Worthingshrew on Jun 10, 2023 17:10:53 GMT 1
It seems fairly clear that while traditional Red Wall Labour voters gave returned to the fold, many people are not convinced by Stammer. Don't know / none of the above is reported as being a large chunk of the electorate. I for one are not convinced that Labour will win an outright majority. Tactical voting may deliver a Labour victory, but Labour need to accept that they have no chance in traditional solid Tory seats and let the Lib Dems take the fight to the Tories I am a dyed in the wool Labour voter, party member and member of the parish and town council. I do not trust Starmer at all. His ten pledges were ripped up before the leadership vote had even concluded, he is pushing out long experienced left of centre politicians in favour of more right wing candidates (look at what's happening in the north east with Jamie Driscoll).
I too am not convinced that Starmer can deliver, because people are beginning to see through his lies and general dishonesty and see nothing more than a Tory in a red tie. People have had enough of dishonest politicians who are constantly looking out for themselves and their backers and want to see some level of decency in Westminster.
I would be more than happy to see a hung parliament with labour as the largest party, but without the almost absolute power that goes with a huge majority.
So who would you have as Labour leader? Are you a Corbynista? You may not like Starmer, but he’s much more acceptable to floating voters than a left winger. |
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rob62
Midland League Division Two
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Post by rob62 on Jun 10, 2023 17:17:08 GMT 1
Eventually Stammers lack of principles and constantly changing his mind on key pledges will bite him on the arse
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2023 19:31:24 GMT 1
I am a dyed in the wool Labour voter, party member and member of the parish and town council. I do not trust Starmer at all. His ten pledges were ripped up before the leadership vote had even concluded, he is pushing out long experienced left of centre politicians in favour of more right wing candidates (look at what's happening in the north east with Jamie Driscoll).
I too am not convinced that Starmer can deliver, because people are beginning to see through his lies and general dishonesty and see nothing more than a Tory in a red tie. People have had enough of dishonest politicians who are constantly looking out for themselves and their backers and want to see some level of decency in Westminster.
I would be more than happy to see a hung parliament with labour as the largest party, but without the almost absolute power that goes with a huge majority.
So who would you have as Labour leader? Are you a Corbynista? You may not like Starmer, but he’s much more acceptable to floating voters than a left winger. I supported Corbyn, but believe that he was wrong to stay on after the 2017 election. There are very few losing party leaders over the years that have gone on to even lead their party into another election, let alone win. Almost the entire UK media and many inside the party had conspired against him in 2017, but the fact that he managed to give Labour the biggest boost in votes of all time I think went to his head and he thought he was worthy of another try. He was wrong.
Personally I would like to see Andy Burnham have another shot at the leadership, because just like with the Democrats over the Atlantic, there seems to a dearth of genuine talent in the parliamentary Labour party. No-one appears to waiting in the wings should Starmer fail at the next election. Should Burnham stand in the next election he will provide the party with a real alternative to the barrister knight. He is popular with most sectors of the party and he is a well known name even amongst those who don't take a great interest in politics.
I would consider myself to be on the left of the Labour party, but not to the extreme left. If you look at the actual policies of Corbyn, not the media hype, the actual policies, I don't think you will find anything all that radical, in fact many of his ideas would barely rate him as left wing at all in some European countries political spheres, whereas in the UK the press had everyone believing that he was some sort of raging commie, while at the same time being one of the liberal elite. I suppose that's what happens when almost every single newspaper (sic) is owned by non UK taxpaying billionaires who don't want to risk anyone rocking their boat yacht.
ETA A fair question. I'm actually glad that you asked.
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Post by Worthingshrew on Jun 10, 2023 22:52:54 GMT 1
So who would you have as Labour leader? Are you a Corbynista? You may not like Starmer, but he’s much more acceptable to floating voters than a left winger. I supported Corbyn, but believe that he was wrong to stay on after the 2017 election. There are very few losing party leaders over the years that have gone on to even lead their party into another election, let alone win. Almost the entire UK media and many inside the party had conspired against him in 2017, but the fact that he managed to give Labour the biggest boost in votes of all time I think went to his head and he thought he was worthy of another try. He was wrong.
Personally I would like to see Andy Burnham have another shot at the leadership, because just like with the Democrats over the Atlantic, there seems to a dearth of genuine talent in the parliamentary Labour party. No-one appears to waiting in the wings should Starmer fail at the next election. Should Burnham stand in the next election he will provide the party with a real alternative to the barrister knight. He is popular with most sectors of the party and he is a well known name even amongst those who don't take a great interest in politics.
I would consider myself to be on the left of the Labour party, but not to the extreme left. If you look at the actual policies of Corbyn, not the media hype, the actual policies, I don't think you will find anything all that radical, in fact many of his ideas would barely rate him as left wing at all in some European countries political spheres, whereas in the UK the press had everyone believing that he was some sort of raging commie, while at the same time being one of the liberal elite. I suppose that's what happens when almost every single newspaper (sic) is owned by non UK taxpaying billionaires who don't want to risk anyone rocking their boat yacht.
ETA A fair question. I'm actually glad that you asked.
I would also love to see Andy Burnham as leader if he wants to return to Westminster, and think he would be very popular across the country. Wes Streeting also seems to be sensible and a good communicator. |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jul 21, 2023 18:27:41 GMT 1
I don't know if tactical voting took place in the recent 3 by elections but Labour overturned. A large conservative majority in the north and the Liberal party did the same in the south, whilst the conservatives majority was. down to only 500 in Borris former constituency.
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Post by martinshrew on Jul 22, 2023 12:00:24 GMT 1
If Labour don't have their house in order after the last 13 years they may as well just give up. They should be like a well oiled machine with 10 pledges, 5 short, 5 long and have their colours absolutely nailed to the mast on all topics.
Instead, to me, lead by a fence sitter they don't look ready to go at all. Politics is an absolute mess in this country, there really is no choice.
Like Neil alluded to, people just want to see some honesty. I see the Tory MPs did something daft like £15m on top of their salaries, although I noted that Starmer did £800k+ on top of his salary as well. People just want some honesty, not more pigs at the trough.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jul 22, 2023 13:45:34 GMT 1
I supported Corbyn, but believe that he was wrong to stay on after the 2017 election. There are very few losing party leaders over the years that have gone on to even lead their party into another election, let alone win. Almost the entire UK media and many inside the party had conspired against him in 2017, but the fact that he managed to give Labour the biggest boost in votes of all time I think went to his head and he thought he was worthy of another try. He was wrong.
Personally I would like to see Andy Burnham have another shot at the leadership, because just like with the Democrats over the Atlantic, there seems to a dearth of genuine talent in the parliamentary Labour party. No-one appears to waiting in the wings should Starmer fail at the next election. Should Burnham stand in the next election he will provide the party with a real alternative to the barrister knight. He is popular with most sectors of the party and he is a well known name even amongst those who don't take a great interest in politics.
I would consider myself to be on the left of the Labour party, but not to the extreme left. If you look at the actual policies of Corbyn, not the media hype, the actual policies, I don't think you will find anything all that radical, in fact many of his ideas would barely rate him as left wing at all in some European countries political spheres, whereas in the UK the press had everyone believing that he was some sort of raging commie, while at the same time being one of the liberal elite. I suppose that's what happens when almost every single newspaper (sic) is owned by non UK taxpaying billionaires who don't want to risk anyone rocking their boat yacht.
ETA A fair question. I'm actually glad that you asked.
I would also love to see Andy Burnham as leader if he wants to return to Westminster, and think he would be very popular across the country. Wes Streeting also seems to be sensible and a good communicator. I am a Labour voter but Stramer does not fill me with confidence, he has backtracked on so many promises. I think Andy Burnham is a more credible leader and is doing a good job in Manchester. |
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jul 24, 2023 12:26:22 GMT 1
Just for a different perspective amongst all the Starmer doom and gloom, a reminder that he took over a party polling at 29% that just got battered at a GE to leading the polls for 18 months straight and an average of 45%.
Some people might not like how Starmer operates, but looks to me like he's focussed on winning and after 13 years of Tory management, to me that's all that matters.
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Post by block12massive on Jul 24, 2023 13:59:07 GMT 1
If my life depended on it, I wouldn't vote Labour.
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Post by armchairfan on Jul 24, 2023 14:21:56 GMT 1
If my life depended on it, I wouldn't vote Labour. Nor me, and returning to the thread title, I just think that "tactical voting " is vaguely dishonest, and much as I firmly believe that socialism is at best misguided, and at worst, dangerous, I don't think that I would be prepared to manipulate the voting system to cast my vote negatively (to deny a socialist victory) under any circumstances. Whether or not the voting system is "fair" is of course an entirely different debate. |
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Post by kenwood on Jul 24, 2023 15:57:37 GMT 1
I get your point.
Likewise I thought it rather unfair that we ended up with Truss and Sunak as our PM chosen by the Conservative Party membership in the first instance leading to our present PM chosen , after being rejected , by Tory MP’s.
I thought at the time and still do that for the good of the Country a GE was called for . Something that we could all take part in .
There’s nothing quite like exercising your franchise in the polling booth is there 😉👍
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Post by armchairfan on Jul 24, 2023 18:43:33 GMT 1
I get your point. Likewise I thought it rather unfair that we ended up with Truss and Sunak as our PM chosen by the Conservative Party membership in the first instance leading to our present PM chosen , after being rejected , by Tory MP’s. I thought at the time and still do that for the good of the Country a GE was called for . Something that we could all take part in . There’s nothing quite like exercising your franchise in the polling booth is there 😉👍 Nothing quite like it: ask anyone in the world who doesn't have that privilege! I won't engage in "whataboutery" with regard to the Blair/Brown episode, as the general point is taken. |
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Post by northwestman on Jul 24, 2023 19:08:26 GMT 1
Despite the Labour membership, the party conference, and the majority of the unions all being in favour of PR, Starmer rejects it, not for the benefit of the country, but in order to keep it 1 v 1 against the Tories and squeeze out all the other parties.
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Post by northwestman on Jul 24, 2023 19:15:19 GMT 1
People forget that the only reason that Braverman is now Home Secretary is because of the grubby deal made between Sunak and Braverman and her acolytes to prevent Mordaunt getting to 100 votes. The Membership had already rejected Sunak for Truss, and it's a good bet that they would have rejected him again for Mordaunt. But they never got the chance.
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Post by armchairfan on Jul 26, 2023 14:21:07 GMT 1
People forget that the only reason that Braverman is now Home Secretary is because of the grubby deal made between Sunak and Braverman and her acolytes to prevent Mordaunt getting to 100 votes. The Membership had already rejected Sunak for Truss, and it's a good bet that they would have rejected him again for Mordaunt. But they never got the chance. Whether the " deal" can be characterised as "grubby" I have no idea, but this criticism of real-world democracy doesn't exactly sit well with your previous post pointing out that Mr Starmer actually IGNORES the majority of the Labour Party members....is that Labour " democracy"in action? |
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Post by northwestman on Jul 26, 2023 15:37:52 GMT 1
People forget that the only reason that Braverman is now Home Secretary is because of the grubby deal made between Sunak and Braverman and her acolytes to prevent Mordaunt getting to 100 votes. The Membership had already rejected Sunak for Truss, and it's a good bet that they would have rejected him again for Mordaunt. But they never got the chance. Whether the " deal" can be characterised as "grubby" I have no idea, but this criticism of real-world democracy doesn't exactly sit well with your previous post pointing out that Mr Starmer actually IGNORES the majority of the Labour Party members....is that Labour " democracy"in action? Certainly not. I am no fan of Starmer, who has U turned on practically everything, denied PR to his own party members, has placed characters like the 25 year old Oxbridge Graduate who won in Selby as candidates in other constituencies, thereby overruling the local party memberships, is doing the same with Regional Mayors, has bypassed the Durham Miners Gala, upset the Unions, and is not prepared to say very much on anything - even the current banking fiasco involving Farage. At the moment, he's relying on the anti Tory vote getting him over the line without offering anything much to suggest a reasonable alternative. |
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Post by armchairfan on Jul 26, 2023 16:29:57 GMT 1
Whether the " deal" can be characterised as "grubby" I have no idea, but this criticism of real-world democracy doesn't exactly sit well with your previous post pointing out that Mr Starmer actually IGNORES the majority of the Labour Party members....is that Labour " democracy"in action? Certainly not. I am no fan of Starmer, who has U turned on practically everything, denied PR to his own party members, has placed characters like the 25 year old Oxbridge Graduate who won in Selby as candidates in other constituencies, thereby overruling the local party memberships, is doing the same with Regional Mayors, has bypassed the Durham Miners Gala, upset the Unions, and is not prepared to say very much on anything - even the current banking fiasco involving Farage. At the moment, he's relying on the anti Tory vote getting him over the line without offering anything much to suggest a reasonable alternative. Exactly, which leads me to the bigger question: if Mr Starmer ignores the democratic views of his own Party, where does he stand on democracy as a system of governance? We got a taste of his lack of respect for democratic votes in the aftermath of the Brexit vote, so you shouldn't be surprised (if, indeed you are) by his attitude to Labour Party democracy....today, his Party, tomorrow, should the electorate so decide, the COUNTRY??? Heaven preserve us ! |
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Post by kenwood on Jul 26, 2023 17:12:24 GMT 1
I thought you weren’t going to engage in “ whataboutery “.
Personally I avoid such indiscretions at every available opportunity 😉
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Post by armchairfan on Jul 26, 2023 20:27:07 GMT 1
I thought you weren’t going to engage in “ whataboutery “. Personally I avoid such indiscretions at every available opportunity 😉 There is a difference between "engaging" and simply "mentioning"! |
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Post by northwestman on Jul 26, 2023 20:56:44 GMT 1
At the 2019 general election, the Conservatives took 56% of the seats on 43.6% of the vote. They gained one seat for every 38,264 votes cast. Labour needed 50,837 votes to win a seat, the Liberal Democrats 336,038 and the Greens 866,435. In 229 out of 650 constituencies, votes against the successful candidates outweighed the votes in favour. As recent opinion polls suggest, there is massive public appetite for changing the system, but this appetite is not shared by the two parties most likely to form a government. The Labour leadership won’t commit to proportional representation, no matter how many party members demand it, because it sees itself as the winner in a winner-takes-all election. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/26/totnes-election-democracy-change |
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 26, 2023 21:52:50 GMT 1
Did they have photo id at the recent by elections, or has Mr Rees Mogg quietly dropped it because ot tended to disenranchise older Tory voters?
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Post by northwestman on Jul 26, 2023 22:06:19 GMT 1
Did they have photo id at the recent by elections, or has Mr Rees Mogg quietly dropped it because ot tended to disenranchise older Tory voters? No. Photo id still very much in operation. Postal votes will have to be renewed every 3 years too. |
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Post by northwestman on Jul 27, 2023 9:15:40 GMT 1
www.labourforanewdemocracy.org.uk/news/fptp-flawed-and-damaging'Labour’s National Policy Forum has formally recognised that our electoral system is a driver of “the distrust and alienation we see in politics”. The policy statement was made as part of the National Policy Forum’s conclusions following weeks of extensive consultation across the whole party - including its membership, affiliated trade unions and elected representatives. We need to show we are serious about restoring trust in politics: by giving everyone a vote that counts and turning the mounting public support for PR into action by the next Labour government'. Unfortunately, that said, Starmer isn't remotely interested in PR, purely for short term advantage.
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jul 27, 2023 12:22:16 GMT 1
If my life depended on it, I wouldn't vote Labour. Nor me, and returning to the thread title, I just think that "tactical voting " is vaguely dishonest, and much as I firmly believe that socialism is at best misguided, and at worst, dangerous, I don't think that I would be prepared to manipulate the voting system to cast my vote negatively (to deny a socialist victory) under any circumstances. Whether or not the voting system is "fair" is of course an entirely different debate. Just to provide balance, I get what you mean about tactical voting not particularly being in the spirit of the sport but.... in my personal situation the Lib Dems are the party I most align with - but I know they've never really had a chance of winning in Shrewsbury, I lean Labour more than I do Conservative (especially the recent iteration) so I tactically vote for Labour in Shrewsbury as they have the best chance of beating the Tories here. If it was a pick who you want election I would be voting Lib Dem but unfortunately FPTP doesn't work like that, it's usually a pick the least worst option. |
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Post by armchairfan on Jul 27, 2023 16:15:19 GMT 1
Nor me, and returning to the thread title, I just think that "tactical voting " is vaguely dishonest, and much as I firmly believe that socialism is at best misguided, and at worst, dangerous, I don't think that I would be prepared to manipulate the voting system to cast my vote negatively (to deny a socialist victory) under any circumstances. Whether or not the voting system is "fair" is of course an entirely different debate. Just to provide balance, I get what you mean about tactical voting not particularly being in the spirit of the sport but.... in my personal situation the Lib Dems are the party I most align with - but I know they've never really had a chance of winning in Shrewsbury, I lean Labour more than I do Conservative (especially the recent iteration) so I tactically vote for Labour in Shrewsbury as they have the best chance of beating the Tories here. If it was a pick who you want election I would be voting Lib Dem but unfortunately FPTP doesn't work like that, it's usually a pick the least worst option. I do get your (and many others) predicament, but until both major parties can get together and try to formulate an alternative voting system, then I'm afraid you're stuffed. The thing is that neither of the two parties (for different reasons) will entertain even a meaningful discussion. Leaving the politics aside for a moment, there are philosophical objections to most forms of PR: it is likely to result in a government for which very few will have voted, leading to unstable governments (witness the crumbling and consequent rebuilding of countless coalitions in countries with PR, none of which end up reflecting the views of the electorate, who have no say in those manoeverings anyway). Moreover, when it comes down to governance, as opposed to politics, it is almost certain that unstable governments lead inevitably to bad governance (the "managerial" aspects of government) Before you or anyone else points out that we currently have a government which is failing on both the politics AND the governance. All in all, a bit of a mess, and whilst I do have some sympathy with PR as a concept, I will need some convincing that it represents a way forward - at least with the creaking FPTP, we can be certain of changes come election time....by the way, I shall still vote Conservative lol |
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