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Post by Dancin on Nov 23, 2022 11:00:56 GMT 1
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Post by Minormorris64 on Nov 23, 2022 11:26:25 GMT 1
GOOD !
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Post by martinshrew on Nov 23, 2022 11:40:48 GMT 1
They did hold one, the voted to stay.
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Post by Dancin on Nov 23, 2022 12:25:50 GMT 1
Ian Blackwood should be interesting at PMQs today.
He'll be like a bulldog chewing a wasp lol
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 23, 2022 12:42:52 GMT 1
They did hold one, the voted to stay. I do think the situation has changed a tad somewhat since the Brexit vote and so I do have some sympathy but... The polls seem to indicate that there is currently no desire for either another referendum or independence. The message we seem to get from the SNP again and again is that it is the UK government that is standing in the way of the people of Scotland's right to self determination and independence. It isn't though is it, its the majority of Scots. |
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Post by davycrockett on Nov 23, 2022 13:04:45 GMT 1
They did hold one, the voted to stay. The polls seem to indicate that there is currently no desire for either another referendum or independence. The message we seem to get from the SNP again and again is that it is the UK government that is standing in the way of the people of Scotland's right to self determination and independence. It isn't though is it, its the majority of Scots. Don’t get this. London voted remain by a large majority, we all have to live with the consequences or should we allow London to leave the UK due to this change (almost double the population of Scotland) May be we should leave the UK and set up England as an independent country? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2022 13:17:24 GMT 1
What a shame  However, no doubt Scotland's First Minister will not take no for an answer. Ding ding, round 2. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 23, 2022 13:18:36 GMT 1
I do think the situation has changed a tad somewhat since the Brexit vote and so I do have some sympathy but...The polls seem to indicate that there is currently no desire for either another referendum or independence. The message we seem to get from the SNP again and again is that it is the UK government that is standing in the way of the people of Scotland's right to self determination and independence. It isn't though is it, its the majority of Scots. Don’t get this. London voted remain by a large majority, we all have to live with the consequences or should we allow London to leave the UK due to this change (almost double the population of Scotland) May be we should leave the UK and set up England as an independent country? Not sure I understand your point. But if I do then I don't consider London to be a country (that is part of the UK). I do consider Scotland to be a country (that is part of the UK). As is Wales, as is North Ireland. Not Birmingham. Manchester, Newcastle or London, say. All are cities within England (a country that is part of the UK). The question of Scotland's independence is age old, way before Brexit happened. I don't consider this to be the same, I don't think this is comparing apples with apples. And if there is strong support for an independent England outside of the union and that is what the majority would prefer then yes, maybe England should become independent. |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 23, 2022 15:36:29 GMT 1
at last some common sense from Scotland , but we know that sturgeon will ramp up her complaing and blame England for this . |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 23, 2022 17:17:18 GMT 1
"Sturgeon said it exposes as myth" the UK is a voluntary union" well that is some spin and utter trip , they had a voice they had a vote , they lost. they tried to get a legal manover to get around it again they lost. it is called a democracy and a legal system . just because it does not suit the SNP does not make it any less valid. this is just more amo for the SNP to create divisions and stir up hatred against the English www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/nicola-sturgeon-urged-to-focus-on-issues-that-matter-after-supreme-court-loss/ar-AA14sgR8?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=549d771fb36f4fc7b8ca3183962027beFirst Minister Nicola Sturgeon said she respects the courts conclusion, but added it "exposes as myth" the UK is a voluntary union. She stated: "Today's ruling blocks one route to Scotland's voice being heard on independence - but in a democracy our voice cannot and will not be silenced." Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar said the Supreme Court had given a clear answer on the legal question and "we must now focus on the problems facing our country, from rising bills to the crisis in our NHS". He said: "There is not a majority in Scotland for a referendum or independence, neither is there a majority for the status quo. One thing is clear, there is a majority in Scotland and across the UK for change. That change could be delivered by a Labour government." |
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Post by wookeywombat on Nov 23, 2022 18:32:17 GMT 1
This was always going to be the case and the SNP were clutching at straws but I do wish that the same old argument (and it has appeared again on this thread) about a previous referendum countermanding anything that has happened since would stop because it lacks substance.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2022 18:41:34 GMT 1
He said: "There is not a majority in Scotland for a referendum or independence, neither is there a majority for the status quo. One thing is clear, there is a majority in Scotland and across the UK for change. That change could be delivered by a Labour government." Change in Scotland is being driven by the SNP, and no one else. Labour needs to regain a foothold in Scotland first. |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 23, 2022 18:46:23 GMT 1
He said: "There is not a majority in Scotland for a referendum or independence, neither is there a majority for the status quo. One thing is clear, there is a majority in Scotland and across the UK for change. That change could be delivered by a Labour government." Change in Scotland is being driven by the SNP, and no one else. Labour needs to regain a foothold in Scotland first. they lost that a long time ago it is hard to belive that not that long ago they completely dominated scotland. |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 26, 2022 6:44:52 GMT 1
Sturgeon got a slap down from her former Law professor, my faviourite quote was this; “But I take comfort from the words of the traditional Scots legal apprenticeship indenture, where it states that we, the qualified professionals, need only teach the young ones ‘insofar as they are capable of learning’.” www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/nicola-sturgeon-s-plans-are-simply-nuts-says-her-former-law-professor/ar-AA14yQca?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=a0b9083b9c964dc089952fbcd8936767Nicola Sturgeon’s former law professor has criticised her “simply nuts” plan to use the next general election as a de facto independence referendum as he lamented his ex-student’s “failure to grasp what democracy actually means”. Alistair Bonnington said the First Minister’s attempt to restrict the election to the single issue of breaking up the UK does not “deserve a moment’s consideration” and “flies in the face of democratic elections”. Mr Bonnington, who was one of Ms Sturgeon’s lecturers when she studied law at Glasgow University, also criticised her “extraordinary claim” that the Union between England and Scotland was no longer voluntary. Writing for the Scottish Legal News following this week’s Supreme Court ruling that Ms Sturgeon did not have the power to stage her own separation vote, he said she was complaining because “our law won’t allow her to keep holding referendums as regularly as she wants”. ‘Accept our failure to teach’ Admitting that he and his fellow law professors “failed miserably in making our classes on democracy understood”, Mr Bonnington concluded: “I fear we must accept our failure to teach our student Nicola Sturgeon much about democracy. “But I take comfort from the words of the traditional Scots legal apprenticeship indenture, where it states that we, the qualified professionals, need only teach the young ones ‘insofar as they are capable of learning’.” His intervention came as Ms Sturgeon argued the Supreme Court ruling would help the nationalists “reach out as never before to those not yet persuaded”. She said the decision had “galvanised” independence supporters, pointing out that hundreds had attended 15 rallies “in freezing Scottish winter weather” on Wednesday evening. One radical nationalist took to social media to urge his fellow separatists to film themselves burning the court judgment. He said: “We will have a short prepared statement to be read while igniting [,] then you can add your own words while we watch it burn.” ‘Defend the indefensible’ Addressing the SNP’s annual St Andrew’s dinner in Glasgow, the First Minister also said the Unionist parties now have to “defend the indefensible” and claimed they had made a “catastrophic miscalculation”. But SNP insiders expressed fears that it was the First Minister who had committed a major “strategic blunder” by asking the court for a ruling on whether she had the power to stage another vote. They said the five justices’ unanimous verdict that she did not, and Ms Sturgeon’s de facto referendum ploy, threatened to set back the independence movement by decades and could even be “terminal”. The Supreme Court ruled on Wednesday that the First Minister’s draft Referendum Bill would go beyond her powers, as the Union between Scotland and England and the sovereignty of the UK Parliament are matters reserved to Westminster. Speaking at a rally outside Holyrood, Ms Sturgeon said that her fellow nationalists were now the “supporters of Scottish democracy”. She had earlier accused the UK Government of “outright democracy denial”. But Mr Bonnington wrote that Ms Sturgeon’s definition of democracy was “nothing more than a dictatorship of the majority” and this ignored the restrictions on her powers in the Scotland Act that created devolution. ‘Equally bizarre’ Attacking her “equally bizarre” plan to use the next general election, he said: “For one political party to claim it has the right to restrict the democratic process to their self-selected issue doesn’t deserve a moment’s consideration. It flies in the face of the very purpose of democratic elections. In short, it is simply nuts.” Ms Sturgeon told the St Andrew’s dinner the court ruling had changed the independence campaign as it is now “defending a universal, basic right – the right to make a democratic choice”. “Secondly, the idea of the UK has been shown to have changed from a voluntary union to a Westminster control system,” she continued. Donald Cameron, Scottish Tory shadow constitution secretary, said: “Nicola Sturgeon is stuck in a nationalist echo chamber, pandering to the minority, and oblivious to the concerns of the outside world.” |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 26, 2022 9:38:19 GMT 1
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 26, 2022 9:39:38 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 26, 2022 12:24:46 GMT 1
He said: "There is not a majority in Scotland for a referendum or independence, neither is there a majority for the status quo. One thing is clear, there is a majority in Scotland and across the UK for change. That change could be delivered by a Labour government." Change in Scotland is being driven by the SNP, and no one else. For me the SNP are a constant reminder that no matter how bad this current government is its no guarantee things will get better under anyone else. For all the criticism levelled at the Tories regarding the pandemic for example, England saw less excess deaths than Scotland ('Butcher' Sturgeon anyone?). Its reported that Scotland spends 30% more per person than England yet their record on health, education, poverty, life expectancy, drug deaths is dismal despite the SNP setting out their stall that all would would be prioritised. You then also have the introduction of the hate crime bill and self-ID. You then have the ferry and port fiascos (and more besides I suspect). And now we have Sturgeon announcing that the next election will be a de facto referendum on independence, riding roughshod over democracy (the polls tell us there is no majority support for another referendum, the law states that a referendum and therefore a decision on independence must be granted by the UK government). Just imagine if someone else were to come out with something like that, the usual suspects including Sturgeon herself would no doubt be up in arms. |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 26, 2022 12:38:25 GMT 1
Change in Scotland is being driven by the SNP, and no one else. For me the SNP are a constant reminder that no matter how bad this current government is its no guarantee things will get better under anyone else. For all the criticism levelled at the Tories regarding the pandemic for example, England saw less excess deaths than Scotland ('Butcher' Sturgeon anyone?). Its reported that Scotland spends 30% more per person than England yet their record on health, education, poverty, life expectancy, drug deaths is dismal despite the SNP setting out their stall that all would would be prioritised. You then also have the introduction of the hate crime bill and self-ID. You then have the ferry and port fiascos (and more besides I suspect). And now we have Sturgeon announcing that the next election will be a de facto referendum on independence, riding roughshod over democracy (the polls tell us there is no majority support for another referendum, the law states that a referendum and therefore a decision on independence must be granted by the UK government). Just imagine if someone else were to come out with something like that, the usual suspects including Sturgeon herself would no doubt be up in arms. all very true but with the Scottish press hardley every been critical of the SNP ,how much of this is well know in scotland ? Sturegon has such a majority she feels she can do whatever she likes. Even when she lied to parliment scottish voters were not bothered by it. |
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Post by martinshrew on Nov 27, 2022 10:49:09 GMT 1
The SNP have a truly horrific record in government.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 27, 2022 16:14:38 GMT 1
The SNP have a truly horrific record in government. they spend money like water there overspent on projects is eye watering, in all areas education, health , drug addiction oversight of state run projects there record is dire. www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23130546.snp-ministers-warned-real-risk-first-ever-budget-overspend/the SNP has faced crticisim from the labour and conservative party for refusing to use the £20 million war chest to fund independance, ironically money the uk goverment gave them to run the country. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2022 18:58:21 GMT 1
He said: "There is not a majority in Scotland for a referendum or independence, neither is there a majority for the status quo. One thing is clear, there is a majority in Scotland and across the UK for change. That change could be delivered by a Labour government." Change in Scotland is being driven by the SNP, and no one else. Labour needs to regain a foothold in Scotland first. Labour were scared of losing the almost guaranteed seats that they had in Scotland, so decided to buddy up with the Tories in opposing independence. The irony is in the fact that the decision backfired almost completely is still somehow lost on many higher up in the Labour party and they seem to think that they have some kind of god given right to those seats. It will take years, potentially decades to repair the damage that the Labour party did to itself in Scotland, if it ever truly does. |
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Post by martinshrew on Nov 28, 2022 0:30:47 GMT 1
Change in Scotland is being driven by the SNP, and no one else. Labour needs to regain a foothold in Scotland first. Labour were scared of losing the almost guaranteed seats that they had in Scotland, so decided to buddy up with the Tories in opposing independence. The irony is in the fact that the decision backfired almost completely is still somehow lost on many higher up in the Labour party and they seem to think that they have some kind of god given right to those seats. It will take years, potentially decades to repair the damage that the Labour party did to itself in Scotland, if it ever truly does. I highly doubt they will, although if the Tories or Labour aren't the answer then the SNP certainly aren't, they perform horrifically across all of Scotland. |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 28, 2022 12:07:30 GMT 1
Labour were scared of losing the almost guaranteed seats that they had in Scotland, so decided to buddy up with the Tories in opposing independence. The irony is in the fact that the decision backfired almost completely is still somehow lost on many higher up in the Labour party and they seem to think that they have some kind of god given right to those seats. It will take years, potentially decades to repair the damage that the Labour party did to itself in Scotland, if it ever truly does. I highly doubt they will, although if the Tories or Labour aren't the answer then the SNP certainly aren't, they perform horrifically across all of Scotland. but they still get in powere election after election, i love scotland and like the scottish people but the SNP have managed to brainwash a minority into hating all things English. |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 28, 2022 12:10:16 GMT 1
Change in Scotland is being driven by the SNP, and no one else. Labour needs to regain a foothold in Scotland first. Labour were scared of losing the almost guaranteed seats that they had in Scotland, so decided to buddy up with the Tories in opposing independence. The irony is in the fact that the decision backfired almost completely is still somehow lost on many higher up in the Labour party and they seem to think that they have some kind of god given right to those seats. It will take years, potentially decades to repair the damage that the Labour party did to itself in Scotland, if it ever truly does. all very true and it alienated many voters but my frends who live in Scotland also felt Labour took there votes foir granted and they felt Labour were not listening to the scottish voters.now they see voting Labour as a wasted vote.im not sure how Labour can rebuild trust. |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 29, 2022 11:20:50 GMT 1
i cant find the article but Sturgeon was advised noit to make a legal challengs to the supreme court by her own legal advisor , she ignored it and that cost £260,000 www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1702413/Nicola-Sturgeon-scottish-independence-referendum-scotland-news-taxpayers-moneyNicola Sturgeon could be sued for using £1.5M taxpayers' money to fund referendum plot A total of 24 Government officials have been working on the updated prospectus for independence, a process which has so far cost the taxpayer up to £1.5million, according to Conservative Party estimates. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9319149/Sturgeon-Holyrood-inquiry-Devastating-proof-SNP-chose-ignore-legal-advice.html"Lawyers warned SNP Government was heading for defeat in battle with Salmond They said there was a 'real risk' of losing three months before their defeat Roddy Dunlop QC alerted concerns to Lord Advocate James Wolffe QC Legal advice published after the Scottish Tories threatened no-confidence vote" "Taxpayers were landed with a bill of more than £500,000 when the Scottish Government investigation into Mr Salmond was described as 'unlawful' and 'tainted by apparent bias' by the Court of Session in January 2019." |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 29, 2022 15:20:40 GMT 1
i know the conservatives have wasted huge sums of public money but it seems the SNP are rather good at it as well. so in short the SNP nationalized a viable shipyard that resulted in the parent company to go into recevership, failed to adequietley oversea the project, refused the "Independent Expert Determination" which would have highlighted the issues and saved money and now look to have squandered £200 million. www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/scottish-government-ministers-squandered-200m-on-nationalising-shipyard/ar-AA14G7i0?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9d9c06c215914207aebe6eb97bbb90af"Scottish Government ministers have "squandered" £200 million of taxpayers' money on nationalising a shipyard firm at the centre of the current ferry fiasco, its former owner has claimed."The two ferries are late in being completed and the potential cost could exceed £300m - three times the initial £97m contract. Audit Scotland has warned of a “multitude of failings” in the delivery of the two boats, which are still under construction at the publicly-owned Port Glasgow shipyard." McColl claims the government rejected a call from Ferguson Marine Engineering Limited (FMEL) and Transport Scotland for an Independent Expert Determination to help with the costs. He says it could have saved £200m. Writing to the committee, he said: "The Scottish Government's decision to reject Transport Scotland's proposal in early April 2018, and repeated requests from FMEL, for anMcColl claims the government rejected a call from Ferguson Marine Engineering Limited (FMEL) and Transport Scotland for an Independent Expert Determination to help with the costs. He says it could have saved £200m. Writing to the committee, he said: "The Scottish Government's decision to reject Transport Scotland's proposal in early April 2018, and repeated requests from FMEL, for an Expert Determination process, unthinkingly defending CMAL, has resulted in public money being squandered on a reckless and foolish scale. "It also forced FMEL into administration, a business that was well invested, with a healthy pipeline of work diversifying the business away from a dependence on Scottish Government ferry work." unthinkingly defending CMAL, has resulted in public money being squandered on a reckless and foolish scale. "It also forced FMEL into administration, a business that was well invested, with a healthy pipeline of work diversifying the business away from a dependence on Scottish Government ferry work." |
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