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Post by staffordshrew on Sept 23, 2020 11:55:08 GMT 1
Well councils aren't doing that because they are massively stretched financially and doing this requires a lot of money - some councils have more than others. Of course given the government has wasted billions on private companies doing inadequate jobs that could have been adddessed i am not expecting the councils to pick up the whole tab, i know full well how staff have been cut as the department my wife works got cut to the bone but personally a locally run service is more appealing to me than an out sourced private company. the example i used of birmingham is an approach they brought it because of the chaotic tracing system, they drop off the testing kit and collect it the same day. First thing I think they ought to do is allocate a minister for testing and tracing, Hancock has too much on his plate. Then sack Dido Harding, then make the new minister's top prioroty to sort it out and allocate testing to whoever is best to do it in each area and liaise with the Treasury to get the funding.
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Post by northwestman on Sept 23, 2020 11:59:35 GMT 1
According to one source, ministers part in a lengthy "ops" meeting on Thursday, only to be given the " doomsday" slides which featured in Prof Whitty and Sir Patrick's Monday press conference (watch the briefing in the video below) at the last minute.
"Oliver [Dowden, the Culture Secretary] presented a paper for the trials that would see two or three thousand spectators return to football stadia, only to be told: 'There's no way we can do that'", claimed a source.
"It was only after an hour and a half of discussions that they were shown the 50,000 figure. Really, you'd want to be given that sort of information the day before such a meeting – not at the end of it."
Naturally, the finger of suspicion is once again being pointed in the direction of Dominic Cummings, the PM's chief adviser and a close ally of Mr Gove. "There's a suspicion that data is being held back so that ministers can be bounced into decisions. It's got Dom written all over it," added the source.
Another flashpoint emerged when Mr Gove was allegedly "p***ed off" that Mr Sunak had not released extra funding to councils to train their own staff to issue fixed penalty fines to venues flouting the coronavirus rules.
"Michael wanted more enforcement done at local authority level by council workers who are already out on patrol in town and city centres," the source said. "But it couldn't happen because Rishi didn't release the cash. I think he thought it contradicted the 'Eat Out To Help Out' message to have council officers slapping fines on the venues the Treasury was trying to keep afloat.
Daily Telegraph.
As I've mentioned before on here, Gove and Cummings are as thick as thieves, and go back a long way.
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Post by staffordshrew on Sept 23, 2020 12:05:27 GMT 1
According to one source, ministers part in a lengthy "ops" meeting on Thursday, only to be given the " doomsday" slides which featured in Prof Whitty and Sir Patrick's Monday press conference (watch the briefing in the video below) at the last minute. "Oliver [Dowden, the Culture Secretary] presented a paper for the trials that would see two or three thousand spectators return to football stadia, only to be told: 'There's no way we can do that'", claimed a source. "It was only after an hour and a half of discussions that they were shown the 50,000 figure. Really, you'd want to be given that sort of information the day before such a meeting – not at the end of it." Naturally, the finger of suspicion is once again being pointed in the direction of Dominic Cummings, the PM's chief adviser and a close ally of Mr Gove. "There's a suspicion that data is being held back so that ministers can be bounced into decisions. It's got Dom written all over it," added the source. Another flashpoint emerged when Mr Gove was allegedly "p***ed off" that Mr Sunak had not released extra funding to councils to train their own staff to issue fixed penalty fines to venues flouting the coronavirus rules. "Michael wanted more enforcement done at local authority level by council workers who are already out on patrol in town and city centres," the source said. "But it couldn't happen because Rishi didn't release the cash. I think he thought it contradicted the 'Eat Out To Help Out' message to have council officers slapping fines on the venues the Treasury was trying to keep afloat. Daily Telegraph. As I've mentioned before on here, Gove and Cummings are as thick as thieves, and go back a long way. I don't like being stuck with a Tory government for the next few years, but Sunak gives some hope.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Sept 23, 2020 12:06:09 GMT 1
Does anyone else think Chris Whitty looks like Chucky the doll who's had a haircut? The main difference is that Chris Whitty is more frightening.
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Post by northwestman on Sept 23, 2020 12:16:57 GMT 1
Does anyone else think Chris Whitty looks like Chucky the doll who's had a haircut? The main difference is that Chris Whitty is more frightening. According to reports in the papers, Whitty wants to go down the Sturgeon route and ban interaction between households. Watch this space.
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Post by martinshrew on Sept 23, 2020 12:22:15 GMT 1
Always thought people with Asthma should be wearing masks, can't see why not? If you're "struggling to breath" invest in a better one. I wear one, it's warm, annoying, breathing isn't perfect but it might just save your life. Before anyone jumps on me I've actually got asthma, rather than print off a lanyard and wonder about with it like some badge of honour I'll just pop a mask on and potentially save my life and other people's. I will be that person to jump in with asthma because it very much depends on the severity of how bad it is. If you really struggle to breathe generally at the extreme end of the spectrum, a mask makes it essentially like gasping for air or if worn for a sustained period of time they can cause an asthma attack... most asthmas users in this category aren't being difficult or choosing not to save other people, they can't breathe with one on. Its like asking someone who cant walk to get out of a wheelchair for the greater good. If my asthma was at the extreme end, I simply wouldn't be out shopping or anywhere where I'd need a mask. I'd be at home most of the time, being sensible, some daily exercise and have others shop for me. Frustrating, but probably life saving.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Sept 23, 2020 12:39:21 GMT 1
Does anyone else think Chris Whitty looks like Chucky the doll who's had a haircut? The main difference is that Chris Whitty is more frightening. According to reports in the papers, Whitty wants to go down the Sturgeon route and ban interaction between households. Watch this space. We have a large elderly population in our area who live in alone. (No covid cases at present). Many of them are desperately lonely. Thanks to Johnson/Sturgeon/Drakeford and threats from Professor Chucky to retighten visiting regulations, some elderly are at their wits end, too scared to have tradesmen to do jobs that need doing. Sorry, Chucky, I'm breaking your rules and helping out when I can.
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Post by northwestman on Sept 23, 2020 12:42:01 GMT 1
www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/23/shortages-threaten-johnson-pledge-500000-uk-covid-tests-a-dayA pledge to hit 500,000 coronavirus tests a day in the UK by the end of next month could be missed as vital chemicals and analysing machines needed to hit the target are “a few weeks” behind schedule, the body representing their manufacturers has said. Boris Johnson has insisted the UK will hit the target by the end of October, up from about 260,000 capacity now, despite a number of problems including people told to travel hundreds of miles and delays in getting results back. But the drive to boost capacity among testing providers to deliver the pledge is in doubt because manufacturers cannot make enough chemical reagents and analysers.
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Post by martinshrew on Sept 23, 2020 12:43:16 GMT 1
According to reports in the papers, Whitty wants to go down the Sturgeon route and ban interaction between households. Watch this space. We have a large elderly population in our area who live in alone. (No covid cases at present). Many of them are desperately lonely. Thanks to Johnson/Sturgeon/Drakeford and threats from Professor Chucky to retighten visiting regulations, some elderly are at their wits end, too scared to have tradesmen to do jobs that need doing. Sorry, Chucky, I'm breaking your rules and helping out when I can. Is there any way you could have a distanced meet every few days, make sure everyone is ok, see if they need anything? Or are people's mobility an issue and the can't get about enough to gather somewhere? It's becoming colder and harder to gather outdoors, fair play to you doing what you can. Top man JT.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Sept 23, 2020 12:54:30 GMT 1
We have a large elderly population in our area who live in alone. (No covid cases at present). Many of them are desperately lonely. Thanks to Johnson/Sturgeon/Drakeford and threats from Professor Chucky to retighten visiting regulations, some elderly are at their wits end, too scared to have tradesmen to do jobs that need doing. Sorry, Chucky, I'm breaking your rules and helping out when I can. Is there any way you could have a distanced meet every few days, make sure everyone is ok I do where it's possible. I sometimes can't help going in their house though. Doing things like taking meter readings, changing smoke alarm batteries, etc. This week I had to drive a lady home when she her car for service and take her back to collect it. I couldn't be two metres apart. I just find these straightjacket rules pretty pathetic. They don't allow for common sense.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Sept 23, 2020 12:58:48 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54186359"New Zealand is in its deepest recession in decades, following strict measures in response to the Covid-19 pandemic which were widely praised. The country's GDP shrank by 12.2% between April and June as the lockdown and border closures hit. It is New Zealand's first recession since the global financial crisis and its worst since 1987, when the current system of measurement began. But the government hopes its pandemic response will lead to a quick recovery."
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Post by zenfootball2 on Sept 23, 2020 12:59:53 GMT 1
www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/23/shortages-threaten-johnson-pledge-500000-uk-covid-tests-a-dayA pledge to hit 500,000 coronavirus tests a day in the UK by the end of next month could be missed as vital chemicals and analysing machines needed to hit the target are “a few weeks” behind schedule, the body representing their manufacturers has said. Boris Johnson has insisted the UK will hit the target by the end of October, up from about 260,000 capacity now, despite a number of problems including people told to travel hundreds of miles and delays in getting results back. But the drive to boost capacity among testing providers to deliver the pledge is in doubt because manufacturers cannot make enough chemical reagents and analysers. sadly not a suprise as this was the same issue with the first wave of covid(any competent goverment would ensure there is an adequate suply line before making such pledges)
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Post by zenfootball2 on Sept 23, 2020 13:02:40 GMT 1
yet again New Zealand have done an incredible job . www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/21/relief-as-much-of-new-zealand-eases-out-of-coronavirus-restrictions"Many New Zealanders will on Monday night taste freedom from all Covid-19 restrictions for a second time during the pandemic, after Jacinda Ardern removed all domestic rules for much of the country. Some restrictions will remain on the largest city, Auckland, for a further two weeks, although the rules will be eased somewhat as health officials said a cluster of cases in the city did not appear to have generated any fresh instances of the virus in the past week." "New Zealand has recorded fewer than 1,500 confirmed coronavirus cases during the pandemic, and 25 deaths. “There is no costless response to Covid, no matter what your strategy is,” Ardern, who faces an election in October, told reporters on Monday. She added that following the country’s lockdowns, New Zealand’s economy was “more open than that of nearly any other country in the world”.
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Post by ssshrew on Sept 23, 2020 13:21:29 GMT 1
We’ve just had an email from an organisation called Rated People who have confirmed with the government that there is no problem with workmen in houses and that they are not included in the ‘six’ as their visits are not social but work related.
Usual precautions, e.g., social distancing and airing the room being worked in need to be taken.
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Post by Valerioch on Sept 23, 2020 14:24:11 GMT 1
Does anyone else think Chris Whitty looks like Chucky the doll who's had a haircut? The main difference is that Chris Whitty is more frightening. According to reports in the papers, Whitty wants to go down the Sturgeon route and ban interaction between households. Watch this space. Least surprising news ever. As is this "2nd wave" given it started on the continent a month ago. Was a matter of time. Give it 2 weeks. Latest measures won't work. Mixed household banned
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Post by Dancin on Sept 23, 2020 14:46:44 GMT 1
But did she sit in the back with some windows slightly open and did you both wear masks? If you did I see no issue.
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Post by northwestman on Sept 23, 2020 15:39:31 GMT 1
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Post by northwestman on Sept 23, 2020 16:06:14 GMT 1
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Sept 23, 2020 16:12:16 GMT 1
I didn't read the attachment because it wants my agreement to the Mail harvesting my data, so can you clarify what is 'crap'? Were the 2 advisors talking about a worst case scenario if no further measures are taken? A large number of positive cases doesn't seem unreasonable to me when there are hundreds of positive cases in Manchester University halls of residence alone. The highly qualified scientific advisors to the government are more reliable sources of information than the Mail, in my opinion.
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Post by northwestman on Sept 23, 2020 16:24:55 GMT 1
I didn't read the attachment because it wants my agreement to the Mail harvesting my data, so can you clarify what is 'cr@p'? Were the 2 advisors talking about a worst case scenario if no further measures are taken? A large number of positive cases doesn't seem unreasonable to me when there are hundreds of positive cases in Manchester University halls of residence alone. The highly qualified scientific advisors to the government are more reliable sources of information than the Mail, in my opinion. Sir Patrick Vallance and Chris Whitty made the stark forecast on Monday but it has since been decried by experts as 'implausible' and 'designed to scare us'. And even Boris Johnson U-turned from the prediction, admitting to the Commons yesterday that the number of infections may actually only be doubling every 20 days. Advisers have now revealed the Chief Scientific Adviser and Chief Medical Officer' prediction was based on older studies claiming Covid-19 cases would double every week - a figure from the start of September that is no longer supported by the Government's own testing data. Figures suggest the outbreak is doubling every two weeks, rising from an average of 1,022 infections a day on August 22 to 2,032 on September 7, to 3,929 yesterday. Neither Spain nor France, whose outbreaks the UK is thought to be on a par with, have got anywhere near the dreaded 50,000 cases a day mark. A spokesman for Vallance confirmed yesterday that the seven-day estimate was 'heavily' based on findings of the weekly survey of the Office for National Statistics, and the React-1 survey by Imperial College London. The studies test a random sample of 100,000 people but, as the virus remains at low levels, they have to base their predictions off only a few hundred positive cases. In the last React-1 study on September 7, they identified 136 coronavirus cases out of 153,000 people sampled. The low number led them to predict that infections could double every seven days, a figure that was then used by the Government scientists. The Government admitted it used these surveys as opposed to actual testing data because it was worried the figures lagged behind the spread of the disease. Hugh Pennington, an emeritus microbiologist at Aberdeen University said their prediction 'wasn't scientifically accurate'. 'It was almost designed to scare us,' he said. 'It didn't take into account we are doing a lot. I was annoyed because they were naughty doing that.' Professor Paul Hunter, a medical expert at the University of East Anglia, said the figures they presented were 'implausible' for mid-October. 'It's important to bear in mind that they were not making a prediction, they were presenting an illustration of what would happen if cases continued to double, which they almost certainly will not,' he said. Professor Anthony Brookes, an expert in genomics at the University of Leicester, said they had presented a 'distorted, unbalanced view of reality'. 'Modelling is using guestimates and trying to predict the future,' he said. 'But models are not data. There should be a way to try and replicate what has happened in the past and try and go forward (with this). Other papers have produced similar data.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Sept 23, 2020 16:50:39 GMT 1
Thanks for putting that up NWM, makes it clearer but I wonder why Vallance and Whitty want to frighten us?
I'm not sure about what we should make of positive cases either, I know there are many in Manchester but all those I've heard about are among students and very mild, needing no medical intervention. Maybe they are concerned about these people spreading the disease among more vulnerable people.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 16:55:33 GMT 1
I know that in the press conference they were keen to stress it was not a prediction but a suggestion of what 'could' happen but why announce to the nation that particular scenario when none of the data (either in this country or in Spain or France) suggests we are on course for it? That for me is the issue, not so much actually the scenario they used but the lack of explanation/justification
But we have seen that throughout the last six months, decisions made and a lack of explanation for it. The latest one is (if you believe the press) SAGE advised the 10pm pub/restaurant closures will have little impact and behavioural experts were not consulted on it, so why did the government bring that in?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 17:04:53 GMT 1
Thanks for putting that up NWM, makes it clearer but I wonder why Vallance and Whitty want to frighten us? Cos people in general don’t seem to be taking this s**t seriously. Spend far too much time arguing about graphs and the stats. First case identified on my ward today since June. Wake up call for all of us!
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Post by northwestman on Sept 23, 2020 17:08:09 GMT 1
Thanks for putting that up NWM, makes it clearer but I wonder why Vallance and Whitty want to frighten us? I'm not sure about what we should make of positive cases either, I know there are many in Manchester but all those I've heard about are among students and very mild, needing no medical intervention. Maybe they are concerned about these people spreading the disease among more vulnerable people. Well, both Whitty and Vallance are employed by the government, so they are not independent experts. You can draw your own conclusions from that. I take your point about students, but haven't they been issued with guidelines that if they have tested positive, they should remain in their lodgings at the University and not return home?
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Post by venceremos on Sept 23, 2020 17:37:55 GMT 1
It's also worth noting that 1% of 9,811 is 98. So that's 98 deaths in one week (and this when the virus has been at a relatively low ebb for a while). If a terrorist attack killed 98 people in one week, we'd accept all sorts of temporary restrictions to prevent a recurrence. And we know there wouldn't be another 98 people killed by terrorism in the following week, or the week after - but here it's "only" 98, week after week, regardless of the probability of increase? I think we've lost some perspective on the value of preventable deaths. Of course we should instead listen to people like jt who is obviously a medical expert and knows more, including that people apparently die as soon as they get the virus. If case numbers are going up, even during fairly nice weather, they are definitely going to go up further when the weather changes for the worse, which will mean increasing number of deaths I wasn't having a go at JT, a poster for whom I have the utmost respect whether or not we agree. It just concerns me that some seem to interpret the present stats almost as an all clear, when it seems to me more likely that they reflect favourable environmental conditions (ie warmer, drier weather) and the benefit of our efforts to limit the spread. I read a couple of weeks ago that October and November are critical months when the conditions for the virus to spread will be more favourable than at any other time of year. We've seen that cool conditions (as with meat processing plants) have enabled the virus to spike upwards locally. There'll be cool conditions everywhere for the next six months.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 23, 2020 17:40:42 GMT 1
As I've mentioned before on here, Gove and Cummings are as thick as thieves, and go back a long way. I like the use of "thick" and "thieves" in any sentence referencing Gove and Cummings, even though we're led by some to regard Cummings as a demi-god.
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Post by ssshrew on Sept 23, 2020 17:54:33 GMT 1
Thanks for putting that up NWM, makes it clearer but I wonder why Vallance and Whitty want to frighten us? Cos people in general don’t seem to be taking this s**t seriously. Spend far too much time arguing about graphs and the stats. First case identified on my ward today since June. Wake up call for all of us! And this is the point. It’s not how mild someone can catch it - it’s whether they can pass it on to a vulnerable other person. Two cases in my son’s this week. We have these new restrictions because people didn’t do as asked during the summer. We are now paying the price for their selfishness by not having access to our hobby - football. We have been told all the way through there would be more cases in the Autumn\winter and it is proving thus.
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Post by Worthingshrew on Sept 23, 2020 19:08:48 GMT 1
Who didn’t do what they were asked in summer? You’ll never get unanimity from 66m people and I’m fed up with Govt blaming the public when their own failings are more to blame.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Sept 23, 2020 19:15:21 GMT 1
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Sept 23, 2020 19:19:41 GMT 1
I’ve just listened to what Vallance actually said, referring to the infection figures in early September he says if, and it’s a very big if the trend continues there will be 50, 000 cases...
So not the definite statement that is being claimed he made.
Referring to students, not all who have tested positive have reported their status to the university and are therefore not locked down.
I also think that the suggestion that a distinguished scientist and medic tailor their findings to accord with what the government want is ludicrous.
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