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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 14:29:31 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 13, 2019 14:29:31 GMT 1
Even as a Labour Corbyn man I agree with this. Eyes turn on 5 years time, everyone in Labour should do the same... It's gone. when labour lose wrexham , bridgend and seats in there heartland with some areas having a 15% swing against labour,then it has well and truley gone. you would hope that the labour party take a real look at what whent wrong . Backing a second vote on Brexit was a terrible idea. Should of just respected the out vote, I voted out and Labour but it even grated me and I'm a Corbyn man. The Labour policies in the main were popular, just with the Tories having a simple manifesto and a quick slogan it reached home to the working classes in places like Workington. However, only plus point is Boris is now accountable to alot of working class voters and I can't see him governing in the interests of them. Boris Johnson isn't well liked on the doorsteps, sadly was more liked than Corbyn though. Media played it's part sadly also Labour choice to dither was the killer blow which wound even us Labour voters up.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 13, 2019 14:29:38 GMT 1
We'll have to agree to disagree there, I think he speaks for an awful lot people when looking to the direction the Labour party have taken since Momentum and Corbyn came on board. In 2017 more working class people voted for the Tories than Labour and that was with both parties saying they would respect the referendum result. Its a trend that started some time back, this is not Brexit alone. Corbyn is not well liked by many and Corbyn is Momentum's man. There is clearly a huge detachment between the party, its politicians, its membership and many of those who did make up its core support. And that came to the fore last night for us all to see. Even without Brexit (in 2017) this Labour weren't able to shift the Tories. This isn't just about Brexit, it's also about Corbyn and what Labour has become. So what's the solution? We need a strong opposition and I'd say the same if Labour had won? Back to left of centre? Chosen the wrong brother sadly.... I very much doubt too many would disagree with you regarding a strong opposition. As to what that means in regards to Labour, I guess it depends on what they want to be and who they want to represent. Here is Paul Embery's take on that, worth a read... Is this the end for Labour?
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Post by shrewinjapan on Dec 13, 2019 14:34:41 GMT 1
FPTP is exceptionally harsh on the Lib Dems. Well over 3 million votes got them just 11 seats. They need 10 times the votes per seat than the Tories.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 13, 2019 14:47:14 GMT 1
I'd suggest using a phrase like "there is no place for you" to those who see things differently isn't the best way to encourage people to come together. I agree with nicko. I don't object to anyone winning with 43.6%. I do object to that meaning they hoover up most of the seats, whether they're Tory or Labour. That's the root of our division and tribalism - a winner take all mentality. It's almost impossible to build consensus on that foundation. And there's a point in hand, you take part of a phrase to suit yourself, the phrase was 'those hell bent on continuing to be divisive etc etc.............. People will not accept a result these days, they won't accept what their boss says, they won't eat their school dinner......this is the poison that has spread out across our society, where people answer back, won't accept authority and just think that shouting even louder will in some way make them heard. The result is the result, it was a landslide, a remarkable turnaround with the country emphatically saying get Brexit sorted and move on. Woah, steady on fella. Let's just row back for a second. You can't simultaneously call for a coming together and yet say "there is no place for you" to anyone who you believe to be divisive. Who exactly is hell bent on division? You can't expect opponents to rally round the Johnson standard just because he's the Prime Minister. That's not how it works and never has been. Were Thatcher and Blair not opposed at every turn by their opponents? It's up to Johnson and his government to govern in the interests of everybody - the country doesn't come together just because it would be nice if it did. I don't know of anybody not accepting the result. We have no choice. We don't have to like it though and we're free to interpret it in any way we find reasonable. You call it "emphatically saying get brexit sorted". Well, ok, if 43.6% of the vote is what you call emphatic. I'd say the only thing that's emphatic is the result that our electoral system gives to the party achieving the highest minority share. I can remember people answering back and not eating their school dinner back in the 70s …..
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 14:50:32 GMT 1
/photo/1
Over 10 million people voted for the Labour manifesto, which clearly lays out a Social Democratic agenda. Plus, of course the choice to remain in the EU.
Over 3.5 million voted Lib Dem, a remain party.
Include the Green vote and it appears there may be more people who wish to remain in the EU. The SNP are clear what they want.
Yet, somehow democracy is the winner.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 14:54:40 GMT 1
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Post by shrewinjapan on Dec 13, 2019 14:54:40 GMT 1
I can remember people answering back and not eating their school dinner back in the 70s ….. Me. No way I was eating half that slop, the custard with about a centimetre of thick skin on top, or the foul blancmange especially.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 14:55:06 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 14:55:06 GMT 1
1. I have been consistent in my belief in electoral reform. It's why I normally vote Green. My posts on here reflect that. 2. FPTP was introduced when there was a 2 party system. We now have a multiple party system. 3. You do not get to say who has a place in any of this. To suggest that is arrogant and is actually suggests that you want to shut down any debate. 4. Which is hypocritical, when you go on about democracy... 5. And of course if Labour had won... If labour had won, like on previous occasions following this self same system. Considering that Labour offered a second ref and were going to raise tax, I find this hard to believe seeing what you said up thread. And, again, for the record, when Labour were in last time, 'there was no pleasing me.' I have been consistent in my reform views since 18. And until recently, spoiled paper.
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Post by 18stfc86 on Dec 13, 2019 14:57:10 GMT 1
/photo/1 Over 10 million people voted for the Labour manifesto, which clearly lays out a Social Democratic agenda. Plus, of course the choice to remain in the EU. Over 3.5 million voted Lib Dem, a remain party. Include the Green vote and it appears there may be more people who wish to remain in the EU. The SNP are clear what they want. Yet, somehow democracy is the winner. Not every single person that voted labour would have been in favour of staying in the EU. Just check a few posts up on this thread and South Stand Shrew is one of my examples. Just except that there's going to be a Tory government for atleast the next 5 years as nothing you write on a Shrewsbury Town football forum is going to change that.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 15:03:39 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 13, 2019 15:03:39 GMT 1
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 15:04:27 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 13, 2019 15:04:27 GMT 1
/photo/1 Over 10 million people voted for the Labour manifesto, which clearly lays out a Social Democratic agenda. Plus, of course the choice to remain in the EU. Over 3.5 million voted Lib Dem, a remain party. Include the Green vote and it appears there may be more people who wish to remain in the EU. The SNP are clear what they want. Yet, somehow democracy is the winner. Not every single person that voted labour would have been in favour of staying in the EU. Just check a few posts up on this thread and South Stand Shrew is one of my examples. Just except that there's going to be a Tory government for atleast the next 5 years as nothing you write on a Shrewsbury Town football forum is going to change that. As s**t as last night was it's gone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:08:40 GMT 1
Corbyn not to lead the party into the next election . Not surprising is it and I’m being ultra polite . Will he stay for a short while ? Well Labour haven’t got a Deputy Leader as Tom Watson jacked it in . Maybe someone like Hilary Benn as interim leader .
No doubt Rayner and Phillips will be amongst the front runners with Starmer and Long- Bailey . I have heard that Cooper may also chuck her hat into the ring .
Apart from the Brexit question and our relationship with the European Union , the Remainer question being well and truly over our” new “government will have the break up of the Union to contend with . A United Ireland ( Corbyns dream) and an independent Scotland anybody .
What a future to look forward to . Johnson and his party will have a lot to contend with looming on the horizon . Brexit deadlines are just the beginning .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:11:40 GMT 1
/photo/1 Over 10 million people voted for the Labour manifesto, which clearly lays out a Social Democratic agenda. Plus, of course the choice to remain in the EU. Over 3.5 million voted Lib Dem, a remain party. Include the Green vote and it appears there may be more people who wish to remain in the EU. The SNP are clear what they want. Yet, somehow democracy is the winner. Not every single person that voted labour would have been in favour of staying in the EU. Just check a few posts up on this thread and South Stand Shrew is one of my examples. Just except that there's going to be a Tory government for atleast the next 5 years as nothing you write on a Shrewsbury Town football forum is going to change that. Of course not all Labour voters are remainers, and no doubt they would vote out again, but look where the Labour vote went.... And, you know what, in all the years I have been on here, these threads have been the best and most interesting. Long may it continue.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 13, 2019 15:13:54 GMT 1
What next for the Brexit Party and Lib Dems? The brexit party is redundant, like Ukip. There'll be mutterings from the wings when Johnson's brexit turns out softer than they wanted but they're done now. Similarly, I think the influence of the ERG will fall away over the next year or so. I'll be very surprised if Johnson doesn't restructure his cabinet into a more traditional "one nation" Tory government over the course of the next year or two. Expect to hear very little from Rees-Mogg and Francois from now on. The Lib Dems will carry on as usual once they've elected a new leader. Without the electoral reform that we desperately need theirs will always be an uphill struggle. Labour must find a candidate to unite the party and present a broader appeal to the country. Difficult but the task is made easier post-brexit. Many leavers deserted Labour this time but many remainers would have done the same if they hadn't offered a second referendum - Labour were always in trouble while brexit was on the domestic agenda. We know now that stage one of brexit will be done at the end of January. Then it's all about the UK/EU negotiations, which I would expect to be difficult and prolonged. Domestically, who knows? Scotland is going to be interesting though.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 15:16:21 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:16:21 GMT 1
There's talk of Johnson moving to the centre and reshuffling the cabinet to reflect that.
Would be funny mind if Brexit was a softer version than imagined by some after all this..
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Post by venceremos on Dec 13, 2019 15:17:28 GMT 1
/photo/1 Over 10 million people voted for the Labour manifesto, which clearly lays out a Social Democratic agenda. Plus, of course the choice to remain in the EU. Over 3.5 million voted Lib Dem, a remain party. Include the Green vote and it appears there may be more people who wish to remain in the EU. The SNP are clear what they want. Yet, somehow democracy is the winner. Not every single person that voted labour would have been in favour of staying in the EU. Just check a few posts up on this thread and South Stand Shrew is one of my examples. Just except that there's going to be a Tory government for atleast the next 5 years as nothing you write on a Shrewsbury Town football forum is going to change that. Talking about the result and challenging someone's interpretation of it doesn't mean you don't accept it. There's no choice but to accept it. Can we be a bit more sensible about this?
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 15:20:11 GMT 1
Post by Dancin on Dec 13, 2019 15:20:11 GMT 1
There's talk of Johnson moving to the centre and reshuffling the cabinet to reflect that. Would be funny mind if Brexit was a softer version than imagined by some after all this.. There won't be any reshuffle until after the Brexit vote has been passed and Yes then there will be a reshuffle; according the commentator on Radio 5 Live at lunch time.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 15:22:16 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 13, 2019 15:22:16 GMT 1
There's talk of Johnson moving to the centre and reshuffling the cabinet to reflect that. Would be funny mind if Brexit was a softer version than imagined by some after all this.. There won't be any reshuffle until after the Brexit vote has been passed and Yes then there will be a reshuffle; according the commentator on Radio 5 Live at lunch time. What are people's views on the US next year? At least the debates on here are in the most part reasonable from both sides.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 15:23:46 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 13, 2019 15:23:46 GMT 1
There's talk of Johnson moving to the centre and reshuffling the cabinet to reflect that. Would be funny mind if Brexit was a softer version than imagined by some after all this.. I'm intrigued who in the Tories would be classed as more centre? Most been booted out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:31:00 GMT 1
[quote author=" SouthStandShrew" source="/post/1449129/thread" What are people's views on the US next year? With Farage due to join Trump all looks good .
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 15:38:08 GMT 1
Post by sheltonsalopian on Dec 13, 2019 15:38:08 GMT 1
Admittedly coming from someone who's sympathetic to the Lib Dem cause I'm obviously looking at this differently then some but they have been royally shafted by the electoral system in this country - 331,226 votes per seat? How on earth is that representative of the country?
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 15:46:08 GMT 1
Post by davycrockett on Dec 13, 2019 15:46:08 GMT 1
Couldn't stay the distance, fair play to those troopers who saw it out. I watched the BBC coverage until just before 4am by which point it was all over bar the shouting! You could have had an early night, it was all over just after 11 when Blyth turned Tory for the first time in 70 years...
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 13, 2019 15:48:04 GMT 1
When you look to the number of seats the SNP now have compared to the Lid Dems then it does kinda suggest something isn't quite right.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 15:49:07 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 13, 2019 15:49:07 GMT 1
[quote author=" SouthStandShrew" source="/post/1449129/thread" What are people's views on the US next year? With Farage due to join Trump all looks good . Unsure where Bernie is in the tables but please for godsake.....
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Post by shrewinjapan on Dec 13, 2019 16:06:26 GMT 1
Admittedly coming from someone who's sympathetic to the Lib Dem cause I'm obviously looking at this differently then some but they have been royally shafted by the electoral system in this country - 331,226 votes per seat? How on earth is that representative of the country? I am sure they would get more votes if the system gave them more of a chance and actually meant a vote for them wasn't just wasted by default.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 13, 2019 16:16:01 GMT 1
Admittedly coming from someone who's sympathetic to the Lib Dem cause I'm obviously looking at this differently then some but they have been royally shafted by the electoral system in this country - 331,226 votes per seat? How on earth is that representative of the country? I am sure they would get more votes if the system gave them more of a chance and actually meant a vote for them wasn't just wasted by default. Too true. They and the Greens - and, to be fair, Ukip and the brexit party - have all suffered from this democratic deficiency in this and previous elections.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 16:28:45 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 16:28:45 GMT 1
There's talk of Johnson moving to the centre and reshuffling the cabinet to reflect that. Would be funny mind if Brexit was a softer version than imagined by some after all this.. There won't be any reshuffle until after the Brexit vote has been passed and Yes then there will be a reshuffle; according the commentator on Radio 5 Live at lunch time. Yes, that makes sense. Thanks.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 16:28:53 GMT 1
Post by bictonshrew on Dec 13, 2019 16:28:53 GMT 1
You have to be ignorant, thick or a bit of a scumbag to vote Tory. Nope, none of the above.
Good to see you're gracious in (a stonking!) defeat.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 16:33:06 GMT 1
Post by Worthingshrew on Dec 13, 2019 16:33:06 GMT 1
Lib Dem’s actually had a better % increase in their vote than the Tories. In my constituency they went from below 3,000 to 9,600 but still a poor third.
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 16:42:10 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 13, 2019 16:42:10 GMT 1
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GE 2019
Dec 13, 2019 16:47:24 GMT 1
Post by zenfootball2 on Dec 13, 2019 16:47:24 GMT 1
love or hate him boris put a message across and people voted for him. apart from the SNP the opposition partys failed to put a message across that people voted for in enough numbers to form a coalition goverment or majority
the opposition partys need to be a credable opposition who hold the goverment to account and develop a more choerent credable set of policies that people will vote for.
the chalenge for the goverment is to deliver a brexit that is fair to us and fair to the eu , unify the country improve social care, safeguard the nhs ,improve education , create sustainable jobs ,tackle the environment and reduce this awful knife crime
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