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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 24, 2019 17:44:47 GMT 1
So is it true to say that under EU rules, members are only allowed to provide state aid within the guidelines set by the EU and/or with the approval from the EU? So is it true to say that the levels of state aid that the UK can provide is determined by its membership of the EU? So its conceivable that the UK (or any other member state) may wish to provide state aid but would find themselves unable to do so, they could be refused to do so? So surely when it comes to state aid, the UK has ceded power and decision making to the EU? Is the UK not bound and constrained to what state aid it can and can not provide by EU membership? As far as I can tell, it is. You are of course right in that the EU is nothing more than the will of its members but as you say, that is brought about by collaboration and compromise. It is an agreement brought about by the interests of all 28 members and then it goes further in that power is then ceded by those member states to the supranational EU. I think we all understand that, even those who voted leave. Its just that many people would rather not see such power ceded to the EU. Perhaps because they may think that certain policies go against their best interests or (and this seems to be the beef with many who voted to leave) they don't wish to see control and responsibility ceded to some third party entity. And with all that said, you might well be right in that such agreements may need to remain if we wish to continue trading with the EU. The political declaration would suggest so. I mean the rules with regards state aid and an unfair advantage would still seem relevant. We wait and see. But I do think this is about sovereignty; some people are happy that the UK does cede such power and responsibility to the EU, some are positively enthusiastic about it because they see the EU as a force for good, others not so much. I think the perception some have that this is all about sovereignty is a misperception because every nation has to cede some aspects of sovereignty. I wouldn't say I see the EU as a "force for good", more as a force for the benefit of its self-interested members, which might be good or might not. The point is, with or without the EU, the UK will always cede aspects of its sovereignty in reaching agreement with supranational organisations (like NATO etc) and trading partners. On the state aid point, yes, the EU sets the criteria for its members. But it's not so much what you refer to as "the level" of state aid that is restricted as the type and target of such aid. Sticking with my example of a notified UK state aid (R&D tax relief), it's up to the UK government how that's operated, who can benefit and to what extent. Others might want to return to an industrial policy of throwing money at ailing industries but our history suggests this is a waste of resources. It's simply a sensible strategy not to permit unfair competition within a common trading bloc, hence the targeting rather than a literal blank cheque for member states. It does amuse me to see some on the right bemoaning any restriction of state aid. I bet they wouldn't be making that argument if we had a Labour government. This looks a decent summary... What are the EU rules about state aid?...so from reading that, it is also very much a question of the 'level' permitted. Other than that, it pretty much covers what has been included here. As for your last point, I really wouldn't be so sure of that at all. People know that state aid can be important towards avoiding closures, avoid job losses, avoiding the damage that can be caused to local communities as a result. Sure that goes for many of those on the 'right' too. I'm most certainly sure that goes for those that aren't voting Labour anyhow. I mean wouldn't touch them with a barge pole but I'm in favour of its use.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 24, 2019 17:52:50 GMT 1
Great speech.... which signals a GE prior to Oct 31st.... Blimey... I missed it, what did he say that suggested that? As I would be very surprised for that to happen...
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Post by tvor on Jul 24, 2019 18:05:57 GMT 1
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Post by LetchworthShrew on Jul 24, 2019 18:14:55 GMT 1
and David Mundell sacked from Scotland Office
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 24, 2019 18:24:37 GMT 1
and David Mundell sacked from Scotland Office Its like a Town preseason...
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Post by mattmw on Jul 24, 2019 18:31:16 GMT 1
Jeremy Hunt no longer in the first team due to dental problems
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Post by northwestman on Jul 24, 2019 18:38:29 GMT 1
Jeremy Hunt no longer in the first team due to dental problems Shame Amber Rudd isn't in that list. What on earth possessed him to keep her on?
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Post by tvor on Jul 24, 2019 18:40:41 GMT 1
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Jul 24, 2019 19:19:47 GMT 1
'Sovereignty' is a chimera.
What sovereignty do we have over Google, Facebook, Amazon, Twitter and the various utilities and services that are foreign owned - many of them by European governments or off shore hedge funds.
The only organisation trying to curb Amazon etc is the EU.
Interesting that the last action of Hunt as Foreign Secretary was to ask the EU for assistance with our problems with Iran.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 19:20:25 GMT 1
Pretty simple clear the decks throw out the dead wood ahead of a snap GE.
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Post by another fine mess on Jul 24, 2019 20:04:47 GMT 1
I’m feeling much more optimistic this evening – especially after the news that Boris is going to find a role for Dominic Cummings.
Looking at the list of departures, I can’t say that there are many who will be missed. Don’t forget that Mrs May planned to sack Hammond after the last election but then had to backtrack because she lost her authority along with her majority.
Who knows how he will do, but at least it looks like Johnson is going to give it a good go. He should have a strong, united cabinet, even if he faces dissent on his backbenches.
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Post by mattmw on Jul 24, 2019 20:25:04 GMT 1
Great to see thousands of people on the streets of London celebrating the new leader, they seem to be calling for Daniel Kawczynski to be part of the Cabinet...at least I think they are shouting Kawczynski?
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Post by salop27 on Jul 24, 2019 20:47:02 GMT 1
Thousands out of a city of nearly nine million 😂😂😂
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Post by mattmw on Jul 24, 2019 20:53:26 GMT 1
Thousands out of a city of nearly nine million 😂😂😂 I know it’s almost like a minority of people are trying to force their opinions on the rest of the country. Sing up for Daniel
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 21:10:11 GMT 1
'Sovereignty' is a chimera. What sovereignty do we have over Google, Facebook, Amazon, Twitter and the various utilities and services that are foreign owned - many of them by European governments or off shore hedge funds. The only organisation trying to curb Amazon etc is the EU. Interesting that the last action of Hunt as Foreign Secretary was to ask the EU for assistance with our problems with Iran. It's hilarious isn't it. An European Navy, what next an European Army? As for sovereignty, you make a good point, but the point I am making is, despite claims to the contrary, the UK has control of its destiny on many things. Including in the collective of the EU.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 21:22:29 GMT 1
Even by recent standards, this cabinet is turning out to be a right parade of no marks, failures and dodgy dealers.
And, some people are happy with this shower. Lack of standards I suppose.
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Post by Worthingshrew on Jul 24, 2019 21:37:42 GMT 1
At least “failing” Grayling has gone, so it’s not all bad.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Jul 24, 2019 21:48:34 GMT 1
Dominic Cummings is a formidable political opponent. Johnson's rabbiting about GATT24 will cease if he can exert any influence on the PM.
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Post by LetchworthShrew on Jul 24, 2019 22:18:18 GMT 1
The out list gets longer ... The list of MPs who started the day in the cabinet but end it on the backbenches includes: Philip Hammond David Liddington David Gauke Rory Stewart Jeremy Hunt Penny Mordaunt Liam Fox Greg Clarke Karen Bradley Jeremy Wright David Mundell Caroline Nokes Damian Hinds Chris Grayling James Brokenshire Claire Perry Mel Stride replaced by Sajid Javid - Chancellor of the Exchequer Priti Patel - Home Department Dominic Raab - Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs & First Secretary of State Stephen Barclay - Brexit Michael Gove - Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Ben Wallace - Defence Elizabeth Truss - International Trade & President of the Board of Trade Matt Hancock - Health and Social Care Theresa Villiers - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Gavin Williamson - Education Nicky Morgan - Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Andrea Leadsom - Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Robert Jenrick - Housing, Communities and Local Government Amber Rudd - Work and Pensions & Minister for Women Equalities Robert Buckland QC - Justice Alok Sharma - International Development Grant Shapps - Transport Alun Cairns - Wales Julian Smith - Northern Ireland Alister Jack - Scotland Baroness Evans of Bowes Park - Leader of the Lords Geoffrey Cox QC - Attorney General (attend cabinet) Rishi Sunak - Chief Secretary to the Treasury (attend cabinet)
and a few more (keeping it in the family too!)
James Cleverly - Minister without Portfolio (and Conservative Party Chair) Esther McVey - Minister of State at the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (attend Cabinet) Jacob Rees-Mogg - Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (attend Cabinet) Brandon Lewis - Minister of State for the Home Department (attend cabinet) Jo Johnson - Minister of State at Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy AND Department for Education (attend cabinet) Oliver Dowden CBE - Paymaster General and Minister for the Cabinet Office (attend cabinet)
Kwasi Kwarteng - Minister of State at Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (attend cabinet)
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Post by Mortgagehound on Jul 24, 2019 22:36:29 GMT 1
Boris getting stuck in day one. Well done Sir
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 24, 2019 22:56:21 GMT 1
Great speech.... which signals a GE prior to Oct 31st.... A GE prior to 31st of October is the one thing that can bring the UK back together. And he does a good speech, generally off the cuff too, but that making it up as you go freshness is what opens the door to monumental gaffs sometimes.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 24, 2019 23:01:15 GMT 1
Even by recent standards, this cabinet is turning out to be a right parade of no marks, failures and dodgy dealers. And, some people are happy with this shower. Lack of standards I suppose. There isn't really very much talent, that will work with Boris, to choose from though is there?
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 24, 2019 23:06:41 GMT 1
Boris getting stuck in day one. Well done Sir Though he has known he was going to win for a few weeks and has had plenty of time to think about what he was going to get stuck in to.
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Post by welshshrew on Jul 24, 2019 23:27:12 GMT 1
Looking forward to him sorting our Social Care as promised. Not heard him mention it before at any point in his career but seems something else he can expect to deal with easily by 31/10/19.
His initial position appears to be mainly to stop people having to sell their homes to fund care packages (Only a tiny percentage do) rather than deal with a funding crisis with councils, a collapse in the provider market and a fundamentally broken workforce. But with a bit of good old British optimism, I'm sure it will all turn out ok.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jul 25, 2019 0:40:14 GMT 1
Even by recent standards, this cabinet is turning out to be a right parade of no marks, failures and dodgy dealers. And, some people are happy with this shower. Lack of standards I suppose. Most right-wing cabinet I can remember, led by a demonstrable liar with several members fairly recently sacked for misconduct, and with an official advisory position given to someone responsible for breaches of election law still under police investigation and found in contempt of parliament. Murky as hell.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Jul 25, 2019 3:40:59 GMT 1
I'm old enough to remember when Gavin Williamson was sacked over security leaks last month.
If only Ed Miliband had eaten a cheese sandwich instead.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jul 25, 2019 4:54:22 GMT 1
I'm old enough to remember when Gavin Williamson was sacked over security leaks last month. If only Ed Miliband had eaten a cheese sandwich instead. Was that before or after that delightful critic of British workers and friend of big tobacco & alcohol, Priti Patel, was fired for undertaking potentially treasonous unsanctioned and undeclared defence meetings in Israel while she was supposed to be on vacation elsewhere?
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Post by neilsalop on Jul 25, 2019 6:58:53 GMT 1
Sure, then that is incorrect. The EU does not prohibit state aid. But on the question of sovereignty, my point still stands. There is a general prohibition subject to some limited exceptions contained in hugely complex legislation with the decision ultimately resting with the unelected EU commission. Seems like a perfect example of how EU membership impacts upon the sovereignty of member states to me.... Even the arch remainer Greg Clark admitted we couldn't help British Steel because of EU state aid rules. Gordon Bennett are you still spouting the UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS line? Commissioners are civil servants and are delegates of the 28 countries, put forward by their respective governments. Granted they themselves aren't actually elected into their roles, but show me one civil servant that is. I assume that, like me, you have zero choice of who gets the job of Cabinet Secretary and Head of the Home Civil Service, the Chief Executive of the Crown Prosecution Service or the Director of Health Work and Wellbeing, Chief Medical Adviser and Chief Scientist at the DWP.
When you and I get to elect civil servants it will be a pretty s**t day, because generally the people in senior positions in the civil service are there on at least some merit. Very few MPs have any merit all and are only elected on their political stance, could you imagine if we elected Civil Servants based on which party they represented.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 25, 2019 7:21:11 GMT 1
If only Ed Miliband had eaten a cheese sandwich instead. I wonder what he regrets more, not ordering a nice ploughman's or those party reforms of his. As when it comes to Labour's electoral chances I suspect he'll be remembered for something more than his choice of sandwich...
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Jul 25, 2019 8:25:27 GMT 1
If only Ed Miliband had eaten a cheese sandwich instead. I wonder what he regrets more, not ordering a nice ploughman's or those party reforms of his. As when it comes to Labour's electoral chances I suspect he'll be remembered for something more than his choice of sandwich... I think Ed is going to be remembered for his thought provoking podcast ‘Reasons to be Cheerful’. One advantage for serious politicians out of office is that it gives them time to consider new ideas.
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