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Post by mattmw on Jun 19, 2019 22:42:27 GMT 1
I’m guessing do nothing will be the option he goes for. Very real chance the next 12 months could see big defections from both Conservatives and Labour for brexit and other reasons. Some very big changes to party politics on the way. Wonder if we’ll ever see either party get a majority in Parliament again? I've been a paid up member of the labour party since I was at university. I've tolerated Corbyn rather than supported him, but I have reached a point where I cannot support the party with him at the helm playing games with the future of the country to suit his personal ends (that is a Tory sport). Strange thing is you can replace the words Labour with Conservative and Johnson with Corbyn and you come to the same conclusion as many Conservative members are It’s amazing The Conservatives seem to be treading the same ground as Labour in allowing its membership to get caught up in a personality cult when electing a leader. Corbyn and Johnson are different sides of the same coin
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 5:50:09 GMT 1
I've been a paid up member of the labour party since I was at university. I've tolerated Corbyn rather than supported him, but I have reached a point where I cannot support the party with him at the helm playing games with the future of the country to suit his personal ends (that is a Tory sport). Corbyn and Johnson are different sides of the same coin That's an interesting view. Think of personality cult and I think of Stalin, for example. It's a term that anti-Corbynists can use to legitimise their claims of extremism. It's not helpful, like it's not helpful when politicians are called 'traitors' for doing their job. Same goes for Johnson. He's been proven to be incompetent as both London Mayor and as Foreign Secretary, but his leadership bid is been driven by his real views on Brexit. I would also argue that the movements behind Corybn and Johnson are different. One is a grass roots movement, while the other is a little clique supported by certain media outlets. Those sections of the media that support Johnson will make sure he gets the vote from the membership required.
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Post by darkshrew on Jun 20, 2019 8:31:00 GMT 1
Corbyn and Johnson are different sides of the same coin Think of personality cult and I think of Stalin, for example. It's a term that anti-Corbynists can use to legitimise their claims of extremism. It's not helpful, like it's not helpful when politicians are called 'traitors' for doing their job. Same goes for Johnson. He's been proven to be incompetent as both London Mayor and as Foreign Secretary, but his leadership bid is been driven by his real views on Brexit. But Nicko, it is you who are bringing up Stalin and you who are mentioning "traitors" - these were neither mentioned or implied in Percy's post. Trying to rubbish any view that you do not agree with by inferring that it is somehow offensive is really underhand. Personally, I agree with the posts above which are simply pointing out that by the Tory and Labour leaders taking a particular stance on Brexit large parts of their parties feel disenfranchised. I don't know how the Tories feel about no deal but Labour chose their direction at conference and Corbyn is being obtuse in how he is interpreting that because of his own views on the EU.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 10:39:35 GMT 1
Think of personality cult and I think of Stalin, for example. It's a term that anti-Corbynists can use to legitimise their claims of extremism. It's not helpful, like it's not helpful when politicians are called 'traitors' for doing their job. Same goes for Johnson. He's been proven to be incompetent as both London Mayor and as Foreign Secretary, but his leadership bid is been driven by his real views on Brexit. But Nicko, it is you who are bringing up Stalin and you who are mentioning "traitors" - these were neither mentioned or implied in Percy's post. Trying to rubbish any view that you do not agree with by inferring that it is somehow offensive is really underhand. Personally, I agree with the posts above which are simply pointing out that by the Tory and Labour leaders taking a particular stance on Brexit large parts of their parties feel disenfranchised. I don't know how the Tories feel about no deal but Labour chose their direction at conference and Corbyn is being obtuse in how he is interpreting that because of his own views on the EU. My post, quiet clearly, is about the idea of both Corbyn and Johnson being the subject of a personality cult, in response to Matt. Frankly, and I don't wish to be rude, I have no idea what you are going on about or, what point you're trying to make.
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Post by percy on Jun 20, 2019 16:51:24 GMT 1
As a Blairite in the Labour party I have dared question the direction of the great leader on several occasions and been hit with many insults for my troubles; often far worse than "traitor".
I just don't see Boris as the same kind of divisive character as Corbyn because BoJo changes direction frequently and does not seem to have the strong will and principles that drive Jeremy Corbyn and allow him to generate a following based on ideology. BoJo is much more a personality cult based on him being a non-PC buffoon - nobody knows what he really stands for other than doing what is necessary for his own PR.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 19:20:45 GMT 1
As a Blairite in the Labour party I have dared question the direction of the great leader on several occasions and been hit with many insults for my troubles; often far worse than "traitor". I just don't see Boris as the same kind of divisive character as Corbyn because BoJo changes direction frequently and does not seem to have the strong will and principles that drive Jeremy Corbyn and allow him to generate a following based on ideology. BoJo is much more a personality cult based on him being a non-PC buffoon - nobody knows what he really stands for other than doing what is necessary for his own PR. Ok, but principles and ideology are the cornerstone of politics. So, I don't see that as a weakness. Corbyn has other weaknesses, but he is firm in his principles. Agree with your second paragraph.
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Post by percy on Jun 20, 2019 20:35:07 GMT 1
As a Blairite in the Labour party I have dared question the direction of the great leader on several occasions and been hit with many insults for my troubles; often far worse than "traitor". I just don't see Boris as the same kind of divisive character as Corbyn because BoJo changes direction frequently and does not seem to have the strong will and principles that drive Jeremy Corbyn and allow him to generate a following based on ideology. BoJo is much more a personality cult based on him being a non-PC buffoon - nobody knows what he really stands for other than doing what is necessary for his own PR. Ok, but principles and ideology are the cornerstone of politics. So, I don't see that as a weakness. Corbyn has other weaknesses, but he is firm in his principles. Agree with your second paragraph. Completely agree, but it does become a weakness when it is one man’s view that directs the party against the direction set by the democratic process of the party. For Corbyn this applies not just to Brexit, but also areas of taxation and international relations which make it difficult sometimes to be fully behind the idea of what the party stands for vs what Corbyn stands for. You could argue that Blair also imposed his will on the party too; but he always did it with the party numbers behind him - Corbyn often interprets the will of the party in an obtuse way or just ignores it.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jun 20, 2019 21:29:50 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2019 6:07:21 GMT 1
Ok, but principles and ideology are the cornerstone of politics. So, I don't see that as a weakness. Corbyn has other weaknesses, but he is firm in his principles. Agree with your second paragraph. Completely agree, but it does become a weakness when it is one man’s view that directs the party against the direction set by the democratic process of the party. For Corbyn this applies not just to Brexit, but also areas of taxation and international relations which make it difficult sometimes to be fully behind the idea of what the party stands for vs what Corbyn stands for. You could argue that Blair also imposed his will on the party too; but he always did it with the party numbers behind him - Corbyn often interprets the will of the party in an obtuse way or just ignores it. Blair was accused of being presidential, of having a tight control over the civil service, for example. Not a good look. Also, Blair had the ever wonderful Campbell as his PR attack dog. Everything was spun, you never knew at the time where you stood with a Blair Government. In short, anything could be spun to look like the will of the party. Some might argue the same about Corbyn, but without the slick PR and more professional party machine. Of course, I can't imagine Corbyn lying about WMD and starting one of the most shameful episodes in our recent history.
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 21, 2019 7:24:24 GMT 1
Completely agree, but it does become a weakness when it is one man’s view that directs the party against the direction set by the democratic process of the party. For Corbyn this applies not just to Brexit, but also areas of taxation and international relations which make it difficult sometimes to be fully behind the idea of what the party stands for vs what Corbyn stands for. You could argue that Blair also imposed his will on the party too; but he always did it with the party numbers behind him - Corbyn often interprets the will of the party in an obtuse way or just ignores it. Of course, I can't imagine Corbyn lying about WMD and starting one of the most shameful episodes in our recent history. I'd agree with that, Blair has the blood of thousands on his hands. The fact he landed a peace envoy role is an absolute disgrace.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 21, 2019 12:37:30 GMT 1
"French president Emmanuel Macron is thought to favour appointing the EU's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier to the role, limiting Germany's power in the bloc which would grow if Mr Weber became Commission president." if Barnier becomes commision president i cant imagine he will be going all warm and cuddly with britain. Who knows but a part of me is thinking that the only plan that our own politicians have is to constantly keep delaying any decision on Brexit in order to drive the likes of Macron and others up the wall to the extent that they finally lose patience and kick us out anyhow. And then you'll have our lot with "Oh no. They kicked us out. And we were just about out to sort it. This isn't what we wanted. This is terrible." blah blah blah. I think our own politicians are doing all that they can to avoid making decisions, they're desperate not to get ladened with any blame if it goes tits up. They're desperate for the EU to make the decision for them. The harder the stance from the EU, the more one or two will welcome it I reckon..
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 21, 2019 14:01:00 GMT 1
Many years ago there were calls for a referendum on hanging, which would have seen a very big majority in favour. Parliament, of course, didn't decide to have a referendum and adopted the non knee-jerk reasoned attitude that some people probably still think was wrong.
This time, in attempting to save the Tory party, they gave away the responsibility to the public and now they are tasked with implementing the knee-jerk reaction that parliament would never have and probably will never vote for. A hell of a mess.
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Post by salop27 on Jun 21, 2019 14:38:15 GMT 1
This time, in attempting to save the Tory party, they gave away the responsibility to the public and now they are tasked with implementing the knee-jerk reaction that parliament would never have and probably will never vote for. A hell of a mess. I don't think the Tories gave away responsibility. Parliament sanctioned the referendum by a majority of 491 votes.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 21, 2019 14:53:22 GMT 1
This time, in attempting to save the Tory party, they gave away the responsibility to the public and now they are tasked with implementing the knee-jerk reaction that parliament would never have and probably will never vote for. A hell of a mess. I don't think the Tories gave away responsibility. Parliament sanctioned the referendum by a majority of 491 votes. So who's brilliant idea was it to have a referendum?
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 21, 2019 15:45:19 GMT 1
I see the a local anti-democratic group are out protesting in Shrewsbury over the weekend. Inspired by the "non-violent" Extinction Rebellion. Pathetic, hopefully they're met with resistance from pro-Brexit (democratic) individuals from the county. The far left have had it easy for too long.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 21, 2019 15:56:11 GMT 1
I see the a local anti-democratic group are out protesting in Shrewsbury over the weekend. Inspired by the "non-violent" Extinction Rebellion. Pathetic, hopefully they're met with resistance from pro-Brexit (democratic) individuals from the county. The far left have had it easy for too long. If Mark Field is free I am sure he will offer his "help".
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Post by mattmw on Jun 21, 2019 16:02:43 GMT 1
I see the a local anti-democratic group are out protesting in Shrewsbury over the weekend. Inspired by the "non-violent" Extinction Rebellion. Pathetic, hopefully they're met with resistance from pro-Brexit (democratic) individuals from the county. The far left have had it easy for too long. We're now suggesting that a group of young people who want to retain their right to study, travel, work and live freely within Europe without visas to be the far left are we? Bit of reality on the situation maybe in order here. Find your use of the word resistance by pro-brexit groups a little worrying to be honest
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 21, 2019 16:11:37 GMT 1
I see the a local anti-democratic group are out protesting in Shrewsbury over the weekend. Inspired by the "non-violent" Extinction Rebellion. Pathetic, hopefully they're met with resistance from pro-Brexit (democratic) individuals from the county. The far left have had it easy for too long. We're now suggesting that a group of young people who want to retain their right to study, travel, work and live freely within Europe without visas to be the far left are we? Bit of reality on the situation maybe in order here. Find your use of the word resistance by pro-brexit groups a little worrying to be honest But you don't find their resistance of democracy worrying? No shocks there.
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Post by percy on Jun 21, 2019 16:15:42 GMT 1
I see the a local anti-democratic group are out protesting in Shrewsbury over the weekend. Inspired by the "non-violent" Extinction Rebellion. Pathetic, hopefully they're met with resistance from pro-Brexit (democratic) individuals from the county. The far left have had it easy for too long. They are supporting a confirmatory referendum ……. that sounds to be the antithesis of anti-democratic to me. The fact that they are also protesting against the destruction of the planet would seem to suggest that they have their heads screwed on properly and are fairly nice people does it not ? A WTO Brexit was not on the table when the Brexit referendum was held - saying that this option is the will of the people when they have not voted on it would appear to be slightly less democratic to me.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 21, 2019 16:23:44 GMT 1
We're now suggesting that a group of young people who want to retain their right to study, travel, work and live freely within Europe without visas to be the far left are we? Bit of reality on the situation maybe in order here. Find your use of the word resistance by pro-brexit groups a little worrying to be honest But you don't find their resistance of democracy worrying? No shocks there. You label any opposition to your own beliefs as "far left" and imply that Extinction Rebellion is violent - do you expect anyone sensible to take your opinions seriously?
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Post by venceremos on Jun 21, 2019 16:27:12 GMT 1
This time, in attempting to save the Tory party, they gave away the responsibility to the public and now they are tasked with implementing the knee-jerk reaction that parliament would never have and probably will never vote for. A hell of a mess. I don't think the Tories gave away responsibility. Parliament sanctioned the referendum by a majority of 491 votes. They were the party of government, brought the EU Referendum Act before parliament and commanded an overall majority in the House of Commons - "I'm very clear" (in Toryspeak) that the responsibility was theirs. Europe has divided the Tory party for generations and Cameron decided the country ought to share in that division in order to salvage his party. The chaos of the last three years belongs to the Tories and Johnson will soon own it. How appropriate.
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Post by mattmw on Jun 21, 2019 16:33:25 GMT 1
We're now suggesting that a group of young people who want to retain their right to study, travel, work and live freely within Europe without visas to be the far left are we? Bit of reality on the situation maybe in order here. Find your use of the word resistance by pro-brexit groups a little worrying to be honest But you don't find their resistance of democracy worrying? No shocks there. What are you talking about resistance of democracy? They are marching in favour of remaining in the EU - are you seriously suggesting they should no longer be allowed to do that? What exactly do you find worrying about that? Since we joined the Common Market and later the EU people have protested and campaigned against it; now we are leaving the EU people are protesting against that too and will continue to do that for a long time ahead. That's the very point of democracy or are you suggesting once a government makes a policy members of the public should sit there and not say a word and no one should ever be allowed to protest against it?
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 21, 2019 16:43:37 GMT 1
But you don't find their resistance of democracy worrying? No shocks there. What are you talking about resistance of democracy? They are marching in favour of remaining in the EU - are you seriously suggesting they should no longer be allowed to do that? What exactly do you find worrying about that? Since we joined the Common Market and later the EU people have protested and campaigned against it; now we are leaving the EU people are protesting against that too and will continue to do that for a long time ahead. That's the very point of democracy or are you suggesting once a government makes a policy members of the public should sit there and not say a word and no one should ever be allowed to protest against it? Q: What are you talking about resistance of democracy? A: "I feel extremely passionate about stopping Brexit"
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Post by mattmw on Jun 21, 2019 17:04:52 GMT 1
What are you talking about resistance of democracy? They are marching in favour of remaining in the EU - are you seriously suggesting they should no longer be allowed to do that? What exactly do you find worrying about that? Since we joined the Common Market and later the EU people have protested and campaigned against it; now we are leaving the EU people are protesting against that too and will continue to do that for a long time ahead. That's the very point of democracy or are you suggesting once a government makes a policy members of the public should sit there and not say a word and no one should ever be allowed to protest against it? Q: What are you talking about resistance of democracy? A: "I feel extremely passionate about stopping Brexit"
And your point is? Perfectly acceptable for people to be passionately against brexit and to march to put forward that view I don't understand why you are worried about people holding that view and why its resisting democracy?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2019 18:24:41 GMT 1
But you don't find their resistance of democracy worrying? No shocks there. - do you expect anyone sensible to take your opinions seriously? Nope.
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 21, 2019 18:36:09 GMT 1
This time, in attempting to save the Tory party, they gave away the responsibility to the public and now they are tasked with implementing the knee-jerk reaction that parliament would never have and probably will never vote for. A hell of a mess. I don't think the Tories gave away responsibility. Parliament sanctioned the referendum by a majority of 491 votes. Every party bar the SNP voted for the referendum. Most also voted to trigger article 50 That fact just doesn’t suit the agenda on here
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 21, 2019 18:38:22 GMT 1
I see the a local anti-democratic group are out protesting in Shrewsbury over the weekend. Inspired by the "non-violent" Extinction Rebellion. Pathetic, hopefully they're met with resistance from pro-Brexit (democratic) individuals from the county. The far left have had it easy for too long. They love a protest about anything. Sad ****ers need to get a life
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Post by mattmw on Jun 21, 2019 19:08:11 GMT 1
I see the a local anti-democratic group are out protesting in Shrewsbury over the weekend. Inspired by the "non-violent" Extinction Rebellion. Pathetic, hopefully they're met with resistance from pro-Brexit (democratic) individuals from the county. The far left have had it easy for too long. They love a protest about anything. Sad ****ers need to get a life Well thats one approach....Or perhaps rather than mocking the younger generation, us in the older generation should be engaging with their views and providing them with reassurances about how they will still have a prosperous future in in post brexit Britain. Just a thought or we could just say **** em - whole lot easier to do.
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 21, 2019 19:24:49 GMT 1
They love a protest about anything. Sad ****ers need to get a life Well thats one approach....Or perhaps rather than mocking the younger generation, us in the older generation should be engaging with their views and providing them with reassurances about how they will still have a prosperous future in in post brexit Britain. Just a thought or we could just say **** em - whole lot easier to do. I’m in my 20’s so not quite collecting my state pension yet
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Post by mattmw on Jun 21, 2019 19:31:37 GMT 1
Well thats one approach....Or perhaps rather than mocking the younger generation, us in the older generation should be engaging with their views and providing them with reassurances about how they will still have a prosperous future in in post brexit Britain. Just a thought or we could just say **** em - whole lot easier to do. I’m in my 20’s so not quite collecting my state pension yet All the more reason to engage with your peers then - its your age group that needs to get a plan together for the future post brexit and to tackle climate change.
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