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Post by shrewsace on May 27, 2019 11:21:35 GMT 1
I think people are forgetting this wasn't actually a second referendum, although many will have approached it as such and voted accordingly.
I don't think there's enough in this to demonstrate a clear shift towards remain, though, if you factor in the vast majority of the Tory vote will be leavers (albeit some will be firmly anti-no deal).
Labour voters will lean towards remain, but there will be some of the Bennite tradition that will be anti-EU.
Putting it all in the mix, I'd say we're still split down the middle on this. If we re-ran the in/out referendum again we'd get a similar result, I think.
Even if that works out 52/48 in favour of remain, that wouldn't settle anything.
We need some sort of compromise deal to get through parliament - and soon.
The priority now has to be avoiding a no deal brexit, surely.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on May 27, 2019 11:43:14 GMT 1
Nigel Farage elected as an unelected eu bureaucrat. Did he get elected to the European Commission? Oh sorry my bad, no one does.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 11:44:16 GMT 1
I think people are forgetting this wasn't actually a second referendum, although many will have approached it as such and voted accordingly. I don't think there's enough in this to demonstrate a clear shift towards remain, though, if you factor in the vast majority of the Tory vote will be leavers (albeit some will be firmly anti-no deal). Labour voters will lean towards remain, but there will be some of the Bennite tradition that will be anti-EU. Putting it all in the mix, I'd say we're still split down the middle on this. If we re-ran the in/out referendum again we'd get a similar result, I think. Even if that works out 52/48 in favour of remain, that wouldn't settle anything. We need some sort of compromise deal to get through parliament - and soon. The priority now has to be avoiding a no deal brexit, surely. It shouldn’t be a rerun of the in/out referendum, we know that result from 2016. The point of another referendum would be to give the choice of how we leave (which wasn’t on the ballot in 2016) or do we stay instead? There should be a single leave option - be it no deal or some sort of compromise deal. Objecting to a confirmatory referendum on the grounds that it will divide the country makes no sense to me. The country has been divided for three years or more and we’re never going to agree. It’s becoming a zero sum game now.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 11:48:46 GMT 1
Nigel Farage elected as an unelected eu bureaucrat. Did he get elected to the European Commission? Oh sorry my bad, no one does. Just as well the Commission has no decision making powers then, just like our own unelected Civil Service.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on May 27, 2019 11:52:41 GMT 1
Did he get elected to the European Commission? Oh sorry my bad, no one does. Just as well the Commission has no decision making powers then, just like our own unelected Civil Service. I think you will find the Commission is the executive of the European Union. It's nothing like the UK civil service.
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Post by shrewsace on May 27, 2019 12:00:34 GMT 1
I think people are forgetting this wasn't actually a second referendum, although many will have approached it as such and voted accordingly. I don't think there's enough in this to demonstrate a clear shift towards remain, though, if you factor in the vast majority of the Tory vote will be leavers (albeit some will be firmly anti-no deal). Labour voters will lean towards remain, but there will be some of the Bennite tradition that will be anti-EU. Putting it all in the mix, I'd say we're still split down the middle on this. If we re-ran the in/out referendum again we'd get a similar result, I think. Even if that works out 52/48 in favour of remain, that wouldn't settle anything. We need some sort of compromise deal to get through parliament - and soon. The priority now has to be avoiding a no deal brexit, surely. It shouldn’t be a rerun of the in/out referendum, we know that result from 2016. The point of another referendum would be to give the choice of how we leave (which wasn’t on the ballot in 2016) or do we stay instead? There should be a single leave option - be it no deal or some sort of compromise deal. Objecting to a confirmatory referendum on the grounds that it will divide the country makes no sense to me. The country has been divided for three years or more and we’re never going to agree. It’s becoming a zero sum game now. I realise it wouldn't be a re-run of the 2016 referendum for the reason you give. Some version of leave has to get through parliament before it can go to a confirmatory referendum. I am massively concerned about a no-deal Brexit, but also worried that if we have a leave option which keeps us very close to the EU and 'remain' on the ballot paper millions of people will feel disenfranchised and angry.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 12:11:48 GMT 1
Just as well the Commission has no decision making powers then, just like our own unelected Civil Service. I think you will find the Commission is the executive of the European Union. It's nothing like the UK civil service. I repeat - the Commission has no decision making powers, just like our own Civil Service. Which bit of that are you challenging?
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Post by martinshrew on May 27, 2019 12:12:46 GMT 1
It shouldn’t be a rerun of the in/out referendum, we know that result from 2016. The point of another referendum would be to give the choice of how we leave (which wasn’t on the ballot in 2016) or do we stay instead? There should be a single leave option - be it no deal or some sort of compromise deal. Objecting to a confirmatory referendum on the grounds that it will divide the country makes no sense to me. The country has been divided for three years or more and we’re never going to agree. It’s becoming a zero sum game now. I realise it wouldn't be a re-run of the 2016 referendum for the reason you give. Some version of leave has to get through parliament before it can go to a confirmatory referendum. I am massively concerned about a no-deal Brexit, but also worried that if we have a leave option which keeps us very close to the EU and 'remain' on the ballot paper millions of people will feel disenfranchised and angry. If there is a another people's vote, then the options should be "the deal", or leave without a deal. Remain should not feature, we voted to leave, it's very simple.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on May 27, 2019 12:15:36 GMT 1
I think you will find the Commission is the executive of the European Union. It's nothing like the UK civil service. I repeat - the Commission has no decision making powers, just like our own Civil Service. Which bit of that are you challenging? The bit where you are trying to play down the importance of the Commission because you know it is an unelected body and creates a massive democratic deficit within the EU. That bit.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 12:31:37 GMT 1
It shouldn’t be a rerun of the in/out referendum, we know that result from 2016. The point of another referendum would be to give the choice of how we leave (which wasn’t on the ballot in 2016) or do we stay instead? There should be a single leave option - be it no deal or some sort of compromise deal. Objecting to a confirmatory referendum on the grounds that it will divide the country makes no sense to me. The country has been divided for three years or more and we’re never going to agree. It’s becoming a zero sum game now. I realise it wouldn't be a re-run of the 2016 referendum for the reason you give. Some version of leave has to get through parliament before it can go to a confirmatory referendum. I am massively concerned about a no-deal Brexit, but also worried that if we have a leave option which keeps us very close to the EU and 'remain' on the ballot paper millions of people will feel disenfranchised and angry. In saner times, there would have been some rationality from the start - and by that I mean from before Cameron took his ill-advised decision to hold a referendum. In June 2016, there was an opportunity for a wise leader to recognise the referendum result was close and the best way to honour that would be to discuss with all sides what the UK's approach to negotiations with the EU should be. Once agreed, that would have been the time to trigger Article 50 and begin negotiations. But Cameron ran away and May completely ignored the 48%. Worse, she actively alienated them with meaningless slogans ("brexit means brexit") and threats ("crush the saboteurs", "enemies within"), while tolerating an aggressive brextremist hijacking of the result and intimidation of vulnerable sections of society, facilitated by the "hostile environment" she oversaw as Home Secretary. That was despicable and is why I haven't a shred of sympathy for her now, especially when her tears are for herself. I digress! The opportunity was missed and, to coin a phrase, we are where we are. Even now, after all this destructive virulence, there are those in Tory and Labour camps whose response to the belated and futile cross-party talks has been to denounce them as somehow the worst possible thing that could happen. Irresponsible madness. It should have started before the end of June 2016. Too late now, I think. This won't end well for one side or other and I doubt the country will heal itself for a long time to come. But we'll live with it, whatever the outcome, because the majority will be pragmatic and the noisier elements (like me!) will be in the margins again. But what a sorry saga this is. We're a poorer and smaller nation now than we were in 2016 - and I don't mean economically.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 12:36:57 GMT 1
I repeat - the Commission has no decision making powers, just like our own Civil Service. Which bit of that are you challenging? The bit where you are trying to play down the importance of the Commission because you know it is an unelected body and creates a massive democratic deficit within the EU. That bit. My statement was factual and correct. I played down nothing, you inferred everything because this "undemocratic EU" tosh is the agenda you're peddling, despite the fact that you're on here crowing about your party's partial success in, erm, an exercise in EU democracy. Ironic, eh?. The European Commission is not a decision-making body and neither is the UK Civil Service. Now tell me if any of that sentence is incorrect.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 12:42:03 GMT 1
I realise it wouldn't be a re-run of the 2016 referendum for the reason you give. Some version of leave has to get through parliament before it can go to a confirmatory referendum. I am massively concerned about a no-deal Brexit, but also worried that if we have a leave option which keeps us very close to the EU and 'remain' on the ballot paper millions of people will feel disenfranchised and angry. If there is a another people's vote, then the options should be "the deal", or leave without a deal. Remain should not feature, we voted to leave, it's very simple. That's a fair point. I have more sympathy with that than with those who pretend that 17.4 million voters wanted exactly the same thing in 2016. I still disagree though. After all that's happened in the last three years, all the disagreements about how leave could be implemented, all the previously unknown and undiscussed consequences of leaving, I don't believe the "simple" outcome could sensibly be that the people couldn't change its collective mind and now have the option to express a preference to remain.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on May 27, 2019 12:43:27 GMT 1
The bit where you are trying to play down the importance of the Commission because you know it is an unelected body and creates a massive democratic deficit within the EU. That bit. My statement was factual and correct. I played down nothing, you inferred everything because this "undemocratic EU" tosh is the agenda you're peddling, despite the fact that you're on here crowing about your party's partial success in, erm, an exercise in EU democracy. Ironic, eh?. The European Commission is not a decision-making body and neither is the UK Civil Service. Now tell me if any of that sentence is incorrect. You are simply repeating ad nauseam a question which is irrelevant. The Commission is a fundamental part of the EU law making process. It is the executive of the EU. It is unelected. Please continue to try and argue against these facts. I'll be waiting.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 12:58:38 GMT 1
My statement was factual and correct. I played down nothing, you inferred everything because this "undemocratic EU" tosh is the agenda you're peddling, despite the fact that you're on here crowing about your party's partial success in, erm, an exercise in EU democracy. Ironic, eh?. The European Commission is not a decision-making body and neither is the UK Civil Service. Now tell me if any of that sentence is incorrect. You are simply repeating ad nauseam a question which is irrelevant. The Commission is a fundamental part of the EU law making process. It is the executive of the EU. It is unelected. Please continue to try and argue against these facts. I'll be waiting. No, you don't get to turn an argument on its head and pretend that I'm the one being evasive. If I'm repeating the question ad nauseum it's because you're refusing to address it because, as you know but apparently haven't the grace to say, I'm right. The European Commission has no decision making powers, just as our own Civil Service has none. I would ask why you think that's irrelevant but it's clear that asking you questions is a pointless exercise. But here, allow me to be the gracious one - you're right (see how easy it is? Nobody wins or loses). The Commission is nominated by member states, one per member, rather than elected (much like the individual members of our own government are). And the Commission is the executive arm of the EU, in that it implements the decisions that have been made elsewhere, much like our own unelected Civil Service. No decision making powers though, as I said such a long time ago …...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 12:58:50 GMT 1
Perhaps, just perhaps we are seeing the start of a new era in UK politics and the end of the two party state in this country? I'm actually pleased that both Labour and the Conservatives have taken a beating in these elections, it's about time.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on May 27, 2019 13:56:52 GMT 1
You are simply repeating ad nauseam a question which is irrelevant. The Commission is a fundamental part of the EU law making process. It is the executive of the EU. It is unelected. Please continue to try and argue against these facts. I'll be waiting. No, you don't get to turn an argument on its head and pretend that I'm the one being evasive. If I'm repeating the question ad nauseum it's because you're refusing to address it because, as you know but apparently haven't the grace to say, I'm right. The European Commission has no decision making powers, just as our own Civil Service has none. I would ask why you think that's irrelevant but it's clear that asking you questions is a pointless exercise. But here, allow me to be the gracious one - you're right (see how easy it is? Nobody wins or loses). The Commission is nominated by member states, one per member, rather than elected (much like the individual members of our own government are). And the Commission is the executive arm of the EU, in that it implements the decisions that have been made elsewhere, much like our own unelected Civil Service. No decision making powers though, as I said such a long time ago …... The reason you keep saying 'they have no decision making powers' is because you are trying to downplay the importance of the Commission in EU law making. In any event it's not even correct. The Commission decides which legislation to propose and acts an an executive so in that sense it does have 'decision making powers'.
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Post by thesensationaljt on May 27, 2019 13:59:36 GMT 1
Many congratulations to The Brexit Party, aka The Diversity Party.
Louis Stedman-Bryce, the black gay man who Scotland sensibly elected.
Muslim, Benyamin Habib and Jewish MEP, Lance Forman in London.
Former nurse, Christina Jordan, who came to this country in 1985, and will now make an excellent contribution representing the South West.
Well done to all 29 Brexit Party MEPs. Not too bad with 6 weeks to get organised.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 14:13:21 GMT 1
No, you don't get to turn an argument on its head and pretend that I'm the one being evasive. If I'm repeating the question ad nauseum it's because you're refusing to address it because, as you know but apparently haven't the grace to say, I'm right. The European Commission has no decision making powers, just as our own Civil Service has none. I would ask why you think that's irrelevant but it's clear that asking you questions is a pointless exercise. But here, allow me to be the gracious one - you're right (see how easy it is? Nobody wins or loses). The Commission is nominated by member states, one per member, rather than elected (much like the individual members of our own government are). And the Commission is the executive arm of the EU, in that it implements the decisions that have been made elsewhere, much like our own unelected Civil Service. No decision making powers though, as I said such a long time ago …... The reason you keep saying 'they have no decision making powers' is because you are trying to downplay the importance of the Commission in EU law making. In any event it's not even correct. The Commission decides which legislation to propose and acts an an executive so in that sense it does have 'decision making powers'. No, it proposes and it runs the day to day business. It doesn't decide. The decisions are made by the member states (Council of Ministers - therefore elected within those member states) and the MEPs (ditto). The Commission is accountable to the European Parliament (elected) You want it to be true but it isn't.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 14:14:09 GMT 1
Many congratulations to The Brexit Party, aka The Diversity Party.
Louis Stedman-Bryce, the black gay man who Scotland sensibly elected.
Muslim, Benyamin Habib and Jewish MEP, Lance Forman in London.
Former nurse, Christina Jordan, who came to this country in 1985, and will now make an excellent contribution representing the South West.
Well done to all 29 Brexit Party MEPs. Not too bad with 6 weeks to get organised. ……….. press release ends ………...
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Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on May 27, 2019 14:24:21 GMT 1
The reason you keep saying 'they have no decision making powers' is because you are trying to downplay the importance of the Commission in EU law making. In any event it's not even correct. The Commission decides which legislation to propose and acts an an executive so in that sense it does have 'decision making powers'. No, it proposes and it runs the day to day business. It doesn't decide. The decisions are made by the member states (Council of Ministers - therefore elected within those member states) and the MEPs (ditto). The Commission is accountable to the European Parliament (elected) You want it to be true but it isn't. It decides which legislation to propose. Ie, it has decision making powers.
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Post by percy on May 27, 2019 14:34:11 GMT 1
I realise it wouldn't be a re-run of the 2016 referendum for the reason you give. Some version of leave has to get through parliament before it can go to a confirmatory referendum. I am massively concerned about a no-deal Brexit, but also worried that if we have a leave option which keeps us very close to the EU and 'remain' on the ballot paper millions of people will feel disenfranchised and angry. If there is a another people's vote, then the options should be "the deal", or leave without a deal. Remain should not feature, we voted to leave, it's very simple. Because you know that there is a risk that “remain” will win this time - don’t dress it up any other way. If you think that nothing has changed since 2016 then you are lying to yourself to try and justify the result that you want.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 17:03:33 GMT 1
No, it proposes and it runs the day to day business. It doesn't decide. The decisions are made by the member states (Council of Ministers - therefore elected within those member states) and the MEPs (ditto). The Commission is accountable to the European Parliament (elected) You want it to be true but it isn't. It decides which legislation to propose. Ie, it has decision making powers. Keep clutching those straws. I bet they decide what to have for lunch as well.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on May 27, 2019 17:21:27 GMT 1
It decides which legislation to propose. Ie, it has decision making powers. Keep clutching those straws. I bet they decide what to have for lunch as well. Brilliant retort. You've really shown me and evidenced that they don't make decisions.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 17:34:07 GMT 1
Keep clutching those straws. I bet they decide what to have for lunch as well. Brilliant retort. You've really shown me and evidenced that they don't make decisions. You can lead a horse to water .......
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Post by salop27 on May 27, 2019 17:36:01 GMT 1
I was looking at the votes for Shropshire as a whole. I don't know what your numbers relate to. Currently both Tories and Labour are still both committed to leaving the EU so to ignore their votes to make remain seem more popular is fiddling the stats somewhat. Don't you agree? Haha, “I don’t know what your numbers relate to” ...... only the counted national votes, that’s all. Haha, stick with Shropshire, you did better there. Ha! I read it quickly and saw it as thousands, not millions. Makes sense now.... Anyway, my points still the same. Corbyn is still sat on the fence this afternoon so both of the biggest parliamentary parties or still for leaving the EU. I think Corbyns potentially in more trouble then the Tories over this. Labour strongholds in London turned to lib Dems while in Wales and the North they turned to Brexit party.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on May 27, 2019 17:40:19 GMT 1
No amount of proverbs will somehow make your bizarre argument that the commission making decisions about what legislation to propose is not actually making decisions any less ridiculous. Shall we continue the discussion once you understand the legislative process of the EU?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 18:33:09 GMT 1
Many congratulations to The Brexit Party, aka The Diversity Party.
Louis Stedman-Bryce, the black gay man who Scotland sensibly elected.
Muslim, Benyamin Habib and Jewish MEP, Lance Forman in London.
Former nurse, Christina Jordan, who came to this country in 1985, and will now make an excellent contribution representing the South West.
Well done to all 29 Brexit Party MEPs. Not too bad with 6 weeks to get organised. You forgot to mention Brian Montieth who will represent the North East from his home in the South of France.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 18:46:40 GMT 1
Keep clutching those straws. I bet they decide what to have for lunch as well. Brilliant retort. You've really shown me and evidenced that they don't make decisions. The EU commission proposes legislation. The EU Parliament decides if it is to be to be turned in to a directive. Once it is voted in by the democratically elected EU Parliament, the Commission implement it and manage it. The Commission is selected by member states and then agreed upon by the democratically elected Parliament. It's probably closer to our House of Lords in that respect. There is a world of difference between suggesting something and actually deciding if it will happen.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on May 27, 2019 18:53:26 GMT 1
The poster suggests the Commission does not have any decision making powers?
It has the power to decide (almost) exclusively what legislation to propose that then shapes the whole direction of the EU. Is is simply not correct to say it has no decision making powers.
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Post by venceremos on May 27, 2019 19:37:09 GMT 1
No amount of proverbs will somehow make your bizarre argument that the commission making decisions about what legislation to propose is not actually making decisions any less ridiculous. Shall we continue the discussion once you understand the legislative process of the EU? Oh jeez, are you still here? Give it up, it’s embarrassing now. Decision making is about power. Deciding what to propose is not real decision making because the elected institutions (Council of Ministers, European Parliament) can simply reject it. By your absurd logic, a backbench MP is a decision maker because they can propose something as a private member’s bill. A coach is a decision maker because they can propose that a player be substituted. Who actually decides? Not them! I propose that you give up your nonsensical argument. Unfortunately, that doesn’t make me the decision maker.
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