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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 21, 2019 20:37:26 GMT 1
so if we have a 2nd vote and vote to leave what will change? and if we have a 2nd vote and remain wins can we have another vote to try and appease the leave vote? Once the remain vote wins it'll be the end of it for sure. There will be no redress towards those who were told their vote carried weight first time around only to see it ignored. It wouldn't be the first time when it comes to the EU, there is precedent for this. The concern however is what impact this might well have on UK politics (something May was right to touch on today). No offence for those who have already paid their 25 quid or who are tempted to do so but I just don't believe in a million years that Farage and the Brexit party are the answer to this mess. If they get involved in the general election...
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Post by R6ix on May 21, 2019 20:45:32 GMT 1
ye the eu have previous in this sort of stuff, ireland rejected the lisbon treaty in 2008, the eu were having non of it so it went again untill it was accepted, im sure the same cunning plan is in operation again with us,the eu will reject everything we ask untill we get fed up and say ok sod it we will stay and have done with it.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 21, 2019 20:47:16 GMT 1
The logic I espouse elsewhere is that there are over 60 million people in this country whose interests need to be looked after. Not just 17 million. That's democracy in action as a process, not an event. It's about nuance, not broad sweeping statements about "public" votes, leave means leave soundbites and calling people "traitors'" and "anti-democratic" for daring to look after the interests of the disenfranchised. So, in light of the above I will take the ****. Everybody had the right and the opportunity to vote, those who didn't really cannot complain. Various options such as postal for those unable to get to polling stations. I think the point made is that not everyone could vote and those who voted to remain believe that they were doing so for the benefit of the wider population. But then those who voted to leave no doubt thought the very same thing. Each side believing they were doing what is best for the UK as a whole and the future of the UK. So then you're back to square one.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 20:48:37 GMT 1
So, in light of the above I will take the ****. You fill your boots. I just think its odd that people espouse such views when even less people voted to remain in the EU. There are indeed 60 million people whose interests need to be looked after, not just the number who voted to remain in the EU. It goes without saying. It's just that people have different opinions on how best to serve those interests. To suggest that the UK shouldn't leave the EU because only 17 million of its population voted to do so (which you do hear) is in my opinion nonsense considering fewer still voted to remain in it. It just makes no sense to me at all why people push that line... I will fill my boots. I'm glad we agree that interests need to be looked after. But, some people don't think it's nonsense that only 17 million people voted out, because that's tough luck on young people who had no say in shaping our countries future. You say you have your ear to the ground on what's happening over here, you must have heard that? I hear it at least once a week. It's just a different perspective and point of view based on their future. So, what I would suggest is that it's patronising and condescending to dismiss it as "nonsense".
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Post by R6ix on May 21, 2019 20:50:59 GMT 1
think your right stutty, if remain wins the book will quickly be shut , government will be saying thank god for that under their breath and thats the end of it folks,
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Post by R6ix on May 21, 2019 20:55:28 GMT 1
i suppose high youth unemployment in greece spain italy ect would like their futures shaped in a positive way also?
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Post by shrewsace on May 21, 2019 20:56:31 GMT 1
F**k me, it's getting like Hansard in here.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 20:58:06 GMT 1
think your right stutty, if remain wins the book will quickly be shut , government will be saying thank god for that under their breath and thats the end of it folks, It won't though. Farage is on record as saying that if Leave lost last time he would agitate for another ref. He's back now, because it might not be the exit he, or more importantly, Arron Banks wants. A lot will depend on who replaces May. This will always bubble under in the UK's political discourse.
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Post by Valerioch on May 21, 2019 20:59:20 GMT 1
You fill your boots. I just think its odd that people espouse such views when even less people voted to remain in the EU. There are indeed 60 million people whose interests need to be looked after, not just the number who voted to remain in the EU. It goes without saying. It's just that people have different opinions on how best to serve those interests. To suggest that the UK shouldn't leave the EU because only 17 million of its population voted to do so (which you do hear) is in my opinion nonsense considering fewer still voted to remain in it. It just makes no sense to me at all why people push that line... I will fill my boots. I'm glad we agree that interests need to be looked after. But, some people don't think it's nonsense that only 17 million people voted out, because that's tough luck on young people who had no say in shaping our countries future. You say you have your ear to the ground on what's happening over here, you must have heard that? I hear it at least once a week. It's just a different perspective and point of view based on their future. So, what I would suggest is that it's patronising and condescending to dismiss it as "nonsense". 1 person, 1 vote. How bloody hard is that to comprehend? Why should some jumped up Uni upstart get more of a say over someone who’s worked their life in and for this country? Utter rubbish
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Post by Valerioch on May 21, 2019 21:00:36 GMT 1
i suppose high youth unemployment in greece spain italy ect would like their futures shaped in a positive way also? Well said. Fact is many EU member states have soaring youth unemployment. Compared to the UK
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 21:02:10 GMT 1
I will fill my boots. I'm glad we agree that interests need to be looked after. But, some people don't think it's nonsense that only 17 million people voted out, because that's tough luck on young people who had no say in shaping our countries future. You say you have your ear to the ground on what's happening over here, you must have heard that? I hear it at least once a week. It's just a different perspective and point of view based on their future. So, what I would suggest is that it's patronising and condescending to dismiss it as "nonsense". 1 person, 1 vote. How bloody hard is that to comprehend? Why should some jumped up Uni upstart get more of a say over someone who’s worked their life in and for this country? Utter rubbish And there you go. The reason I take the ****. Well done.
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Post by Valerioch on May 21, 2019 21:04:57 GMT 1
1 person, 1 vote. How bloody hard is that to comprehend? Why should some jumped up Uni upstart get more of a say over someone who’s worked their life in and for this country? Utter rubbish And there you go. The reason I take the ****. Well done. Thoughts on this? www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/I take it the 800,000 job losses just on a vote for Brexit, didn’t effect the 16-25 bracket in the UK?
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Post by salop27 on May 21, 2019 21:17:24 GMT 1
When you think someone can't make a situation any worse May comes out today and does just that. I'd be amazed if anyone votes Conservative on Thursday. Labour are going to get spanked as well. They're a remain party dressed in leavers clothes and their brexit supporting voters have had enough. The Brexit Party could make a serious run at a general election. If they promise as much free stuff as Corbyn does they could end up being the biggest party on a hung parliament.
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Post by R6ix on May 21, 2019 21:25:59 GMT 1
i know where ill vote
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 21:30:25 GMT 1
If the economy is struggling then unemployment is going to be high in all age groups. That's what that site actually says. Funny though how the UK hasn't dragged in to the crises in other EU countries.... As for the UK, we need to find out what type of jobs the young people are in. Are they long term sustainable jobs, or zero hour, or, short-term contracts, or part-time jobs. Like I have said before nuance. And anyway, I don't see what this has to do with "jumped up uni upstart" not being able to have a say in the future of their country.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 21, 2019 21:35:11 GMT 1
You fill your boots. I just think its odd that people espouse such views when even less people voted to remain in the EU. There are indeed 60 million people whose interests need to be looked after, not just the number who voted to remain in the EU. It goes without saying. It's just that people have different opinions on how best to serve those interests. To suggest that the UK shouldn't leave the EU because only 17 million of its population voted to do so (which you do hear) is in my opinion nonsense considering fewer still voted to remain in it. It just makes no sense to me at all why people push that line... I will fill my boots. I'm glad we agree that interests need to be looked after. But, some people don't think it's nonsense that only 17 million people voted out, because that's tough luck on young people who had no say in shaping our countries future. You say you have your ear to the ground on what's happening over here, you must have heard that? I hear it at least once a week. It's just a different perspective and point of view based on their future. So, what I would suggest is that it's patronising and condescending to dismiss it as "nonsense". Its not condescending when the reasoning is just that. To state that only 17 million voted to leave whilst even less voted to remain makes no sense to me at all. I think its glaringly obvious why. And not everyone is given the vote, we have to draw the line somewhere or? The people of the UK of voting age are given the responsibility to make the decisions as they are deemed best placed to do so. Many of those voting will be doing so very much with their family and children's future very much in mind. I have no doubt about that. Your own experiences would suggest that it would be better for the future generations to remain in the EU, others clearly feel differently. Neither side carries more weight than the other. Both were doing what they deemed best. Maybe I see it differently because I didn't vote in all this but I don't see one side as more altruistic than the other. I'm sure most voted because they thought it the best path to take the the country as a whole. They were given the responsibility and voted as such...
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Post by Valerioch on May 21, 2019 21:35:29 GMT 1
If the economy is struggling then unemployment is going to be high in all age groups. That's what that site actually says. Funny though how the UK hasn't dragged in to the crises in other EU countries.... As for the UK, we need to find out what type of jobs the young people are in. Are they long term sustainable jobs, or zero hour, or, short-term contracts, or part-time jobs. Like I have said before nuance. And anyway, I don't see what this has to do with "jumped up uni upstart" not being able to have a say in the future of their country. Okay so the Eurozone economy is struggling compared to UK? That we can agree on. Strange though, I’m still waiting for the emergency budget and tax rises we were promised? Surely getting a youngster in to a job, even if minimal hours, is better than have them roaming the streets, bored and on the dole? Finally, don’t misquote me. He/she at Uni is allowed a say. 1 vote, equal to everyone else. Age doesn’t come in to it.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 21:43:11 GMT 1
If the economy is struggling then unemployment is going to be high in all age groups. That's what that site actually says. Funny though how the UK hasn't dragged in to the crises in other EU countries.... As for the UK, we need to find out what type of jobs the young people are in. Are they long term sustainable jobs, or zero hour, or, short-term contracts, or part-time jobs. Like I have said before nuance. And anyway, I don't see what this has to do with "jumped up uni upstart" not being able to have a say in the future of their country. Okay so the Eurozone economy is struggling compared to UK? That we can agree on. Strange though, I’m still waiting for the emergency budget and tax rises we were promised? Surely getting a youngster in to a job, even if minimal hours, is better than have them roaming the streets, bored and on the dole? Finally, don’t misquote me. He/she at Uni is allowed a say. 1 vote, equal to everyone else. Age doesn’t come in to it. Yet, you mentioned uni upstarts. Ok.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 21:47:17 GMT 1
I will fill my boots. I'm glad we agree that interests need to be looked after. But, some people don't think it's nonsense that only 17 million people voted out, because that's tough luck on young people who had no say in shaping our countries future. You say you have your ear to the ground on what's happening over here, you must have heard that? I hear it at least once a week. It's just a different perspective and point of view based on their future. So, what I would suggest is that it's patronising and condescending to dismiss it as "nonsense". Its not condescending when the reasoning is just that. To state that only 17 million voted to leave whilst even less voted to remain makes no sense to me at all. I think its glaringly obvious why. And not everyone is given the vote, we have to draw the line somewhere or? The people of the UK of voting age are given the responsibility to make the decisions as they are deemed best placed to do so. Many of those voting will be doing so very much with their family and children's future very much in mind. I have no doubt about that. Your own experiences would suggest that it would be better for the future generations to remain in the EU, others clearly feel differently. Neither side carries more weight than the other. Both were doing what they deemed best. Maybe I see it differently because I didn't vote in all this but I don't see one side as more altruistic than the other. I'm sure most voted because they thought it the best path to take the the country as a whole. They were given the responsibility and voted as such... No. you're missing the point. Young people who missed out last time and now seeing what is going on and seeing how it may affect their futures are starting to question why those 17 million should affect their lives. In light of the current political situation and stalemate over a deal.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 21, 2019 22:02:09 GMT 1
Its not condescending when the reasoning is just that. To state that only 17 million voted to leave whilst even less voted to remain makes no sense to me at all. I think its glaringly obvious why. And not everyone is given the vote, we have to draw the line somewhere or? The people of the UK of voting age are given the responsibility to make the decisions as they are deemed best placed to do so. Many of those voting will be doing so very much with their family and children's future very much in mind. I have no doubt about that. Your own experiences would suggest that it would be better for the future generations to remain in the EU, others clearly feel differently. Neither side carries more weight than the other. Both were doing what they deemed best. Maybe I see it differently because I didn't vote in all this but I don't see one side as more altruistic than the other. I'm sure most voted because they thought it the best path to take the the country as a whole. They were given the responsibility and voted as such... No. you're missing the point. Young people who missed out last time and now seeing what is going on and seeing how it may affect their futures are starting to question why those 17 million should affect their lives. In light of the current political situation and stalemate over a deal. And I'm sure they're are others who would be saying the same of those who voted to remain. Yet it's called democracy. Unfortunately we don't always get the outcome we desire. I'm sure a great many people of all ages consider the same question after each general election held. It's good that they are asking questions, good they are engaged but I hope they appreciate that others may not see the world as they do and they may not always see the outcome they hope and expect...
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 22:06:15 GMT 1
No. you're missing the point. Young people who missed out last time and now seeing what is going on and seeing how it may affect their futures are starting to question why those 17 million should affect their lives. In light of the current political situation and stalemate over a deal. And I'm sure they're are others who would be saying the same of those who voted to remain. Yet it's called democracy. Unfortunately we don't always get the outcome we desire. I'm sure a great many people of all ages consider the same question after each general election held. It's good that they are asking questions, good they are engaged but I hope they appreciate that others may not see the world as they do and they may not always see the outcome they hope and expect... Blimey.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 21, 2019 22:10:05 GMT 1
And I'm sure they're are others who would be saying the same of those who voted to remain. Yet it's called democracy. Unfortunately we don't always get the outcome we desire. I'm sure a great many people of all ages consider the same question after each general election held. It's good that they are asking questions, good they are engaged but I hope they appreciate that others may not see the world as they do and they may not always see the outcome they hope and expect... Blimey. What is your point? Is there one? Or is it just observations?
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 22:14:16 GMT 1
What is your point? Is there one? Or is it just observations? The point is you're being condescending.
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Post by martinshrew on May 21, 2019 22:32:32 GMT 1
What is your point? Is there one? Or is it just observations? The point is you're being condescending. Nothing condescending about what he said. Where do you draw the line? If I'm unhappy that I wasn't old enough to vote when warmongering Blair got in, shall I complain about it, not respect those who did vote for him? I understand you get the chance for vote every 4 or 5 years and rightly so, but the EU membership is a whole different ball game. I'm genuinely unsure what will happen in terms of a future EU referendum, although it's likely the result of this one will be overturned somehow, just like the Irish with the Lisbon Treaty. Vote, vote and vote again until we get the answer we want!
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 21, 2019 22:44:17 GMT 1
What is your point? Is there one? Or is it just observations? The point is you're being condescending. About the 17 million and less who voted to remain. That's not condescending. That's just fact. I honestly don't get it when people use that line... As for those young people who are now asking questions, it's a genuine question...what is the point you are making? As off course some are starting to question what is happening, how was this decision made, who made it, why they did. That I understand. You call it tough luck but what do you propose? In another three years more will be asking the very same questions, what then? More to the point, what if we have a second referendum and we remain and some youngsters start questioning the wisdom of that decision? Another referendum? Where do we stop? I just don't get what you are getting at. Yes when it comes to referendum it is on those who are eligible to vote at that time it is held who get to make that decision. Its not perfect, referendums aren't perfect, I suspect we won't be seeing another until remain wins and that'll be it...but that was the decision made; that a referendum was to be held and the result implemented and that is what should be adhered to. I'd be saying the exact same thing if remain would have won by the same margin. I don't want to be seen as condescending. You clearly think this is a disaster and you care greatly for those who feel they are getting a truly awful deal out of this. That I understand. But its just not those who are now starting to ask questions who need to be considered. 17 million people made the effort to get up and go out and vote in that referendum having being told that whatever they voted would be implemented. That surely isn't something that can be simply forgotten or ignored.
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Post by shrewinjapan on May 22, 2019 1:06:55 GMT 1
The point is you're being condescending. About the 17 million and less who voted to remain. That's not condescending. That's just fact. I honestly don't get it when people use that line... As for those young people who are now asking questions, it's a genuine question...what is the point you are making? As off course some are starting to question what is happening, how was this decision made, who made it, why they did. That I understand. You call it tough luck but what do you propose? In another three years more will be asking the very same questions, what then? More to the point, what if we have a second referendum and we remain and some youngsters start questioning the wisdom of that decision? Another referendum? Where do we stop? I just don't get what you are getting at. Yes when it comes to referendum it is on those who are eligible to vote at that time it is held who get to make that decision. Its not perfect, referendums aren't perfect, I suspect we won't be seeing another until remain wins and that'll be it...but that was the decision made; that a referendum was to be held and the result implemented and that is what should be adhered to. I'd be saying the exact same thing if remain would have won by the same margin. I don't want to be seen as condescending. You clearly think this is a disaster and you care greatly for those who feel they are getting a truly awful deal out of this. That I understand. But its just not those who are now starting to ask questions who need to be considered. 17 million people made the effort to get up and go out and vote in that referendum having being told that whatever they voted would be implemented. That surely isn't something that can be simply forgotten or ignored. I'll set aside for now my concerns about how and why the referendum was, at odds with the public proclamation that it would be honoured, hastily set up as "advisory" and therefore with less legal & constitutional rigour than had it been of legally binding satus. I'll also temporarily forget my concerns about the findings of illegality in the behaviour of the Leave campaigns, which the courts have stated would have rendered a legally binding referendum void. Setting those issues aside, I would then agree with your point that the majority vote to leave cannot simply be forgotten or ignored. However, that gets us no further in deciding how to proceed. Hard Brexit, leave means leave, no deal WTO terms clearly wasn't what was being argued for pre-referendum and I do not see how going in that direction could be viewed as democratic. The WA as negotiated by May's government is, as far as I can see, deeply unpopular with just about everyone. A second referendum is open to accusations of being antidemocratic in that it ignores the result of the first. So what should happen? Personally, given the close result and resulting divisions, I think some realpolitik was necessary - a Norway/Switzerland model soft EFTA Brexit. It's an everybody loses, nobody gets what they want, least-bad compromise, for sure, but that is often the only practical way to proceed. However, May's arbitrary red lines rendered that outcome impossible. Which leaves us at an impasse. I am at a total loss what should be done.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 5:53:38 GMT 1
About the 17 million and less who voted to remain. That's not condescending. That's just fact. I honestly don't get it when people use that line... As for those young people who are now asking questions, it's a genuine question...what is the point you are making? As off course some are starting to question what is happening, how was this decision made, who made it, why they did. That I understand. You call it tough luck but what do you propose? In another three years more will be asking the very same questions, what then? More to the point, what if we have a second referendum and we remain and some youngsters start questioning the wisdom of that decision? Another referendum? Where do we stop? I just don't get what you are getting at. Yes when it comes to referendum it is on those who are eligible to vote at that time it is held who get to make that decision. Its not perfect, referendums aren't perfect, I suspect we won't be seeing another until remain wins and that'll be it...but that was the decision made; that a referendum was to be held and the result implemented and that is what should be adhered to. I'd be saying the exact same thing if remain would have won by the same margin. I don't want to be seen as condescending. You clearly think this is a disaster and you care greatly for those who feel they are getting a truly awful deal out of this. That I understand. But its just not those who are now starting to ask questions who need to be considered. 17 million people made the effort to get up and go out and vote in that referendum having being told that whatever they voted would be implemented. That surely isn't something that can be simply forgotten or ignored. I'll set aside for now my concerns about how and why the referendum was, at odds with the public proclamation that it would be honoured, hastily set up as "advisory" and therefore with less legal & constitutional rigour than had it been of legally binding satus. I'll also temporarily forget my concerns about the findings of illegality in the behaviour of the Leave campaigns, which the courts have stated would have rendered a legally binding referendum void. Setting those issues aside, I would then agree with your point that the majority vote to leave cannot simply be forgotten or ignored. However, that gets us no further in deciding how to proceed. Hard Brexit, leave means leave, no deal WTO terms clearly wasn't what was being argued for pre-referendum and I do not see how going in that direction could be viewed as democratic. The WA as negotiated by May's government is, as far as I can see, deeply unpopular with just about everyone. A second referendum is open to accusations of being antidemocratic in that it ignores the result of the first. So what should happen? Personally, given the close result and resulting divisions, I think some realpolitik was necessary - a Norway/Switzerland model soft EFTA Brexit. It's an everybody loses, nobody gets what they want, least-bad compromise, for sure, but that is often the only practical way to proceed. However, May's arbitrary red lines rendered that outcome impossible. Which leaves us at an impasse. I am at a total loss what should be done. Spot on. And, you are right about not ignoring the 17 million. Point is though, plenty on here are happy to ignore the other 40 odd million.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 5:54:56 GMT 1
The point is you're being condescending. About the 17 million and less who voted to remain. That's not condescending. That's just fact. I honestly don't get it when people use that line... As for those young people who are now asking questions, it's a genuine question...what is the point you are making? As off course some are starting to question what is happening, how was this decision made, who made it, why they did. That I understand. You call it tough luck but what do you propose? In another three years more will be asking the very same questions, what then? More to the point, what if we have a second referendum and we remain and some youngsters start questioning the wisdom of that decision? Another referendum? Where do we stop? I just don't get what you are getting at. Yes when it comes to referendum it is on those who are eligible to vote at that time it is held who get to make that decision. Its not perfect, referendums aren't perfect, I suspect we won't be seeing another until remain wins and that'll be it...but that was the decision made; that a referendum was to be held and the result implemented and that is what should be adhered to. I'd be saying the exact same thing if remain would have won by the same margin. I don't want to be seen as condescending. You clearly think this is a disaster and you care greatly for those who feel they are getting a truly awful deal out of this. That I understand. But its just not those who are now starting to ask questions who need to be considered. 17 million people made the effort to get up and go out and vote in that referendum having being told that whatever they voted would be implemented. That surely isn't something that can be simply forgotten or ignored. This is condescending. "Yet it's called democracy. Unfortunately we don't always get the outcome we desire. I'm sure a great many people of all ages consider the same question after each general election held. It's good that they are asking questions, good they are engaged but I hope they appreciate that others may not see the world as they do and they may not always see the outcome they hope and expect... " People are well aware of this. Read more: blueandamber.proboards.com/thread/98361/brexit-agreement?page=67#ixzz5ocyK67doBut, anyway, you're wilfully ignoring the point I am making. I really can't be bothered.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 5:58:08 GMT 1
The point is you're being condescending. Nothing condescending about what he said. Where do you draw the line? If I'm unhappy that I wasn't old enough to vote when warmongering Blair got in, shall I complain about it, not respect those who did vote for him? I understand you get the chance for vote every 4 or 5 years and rightly so, but the EU membership is a whole different ball game. I'm genuinely unsure what will happen in terms of a future EU referendum, although it's likely the result of this one will be overturned somehow, just like the Irish with the Lisbon Treaty. Vote, vote and vote again until we get the answer we want! Again, missing the point.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 6:18:48 GMT 1
This is hilarious.
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