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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2019 15:44:38 GMT 1
The ancient vote that the Tory's are still desperate to push through was a 51%/49% split, so it's been clear for 3.5 years that we are not sure about leaving. The ancient vote now is it... Is that a new one? I'll file that alongside "People's" Vote and Government of "National Unity"... With or without the word ancient, the only vote we know the result of showed that the country is quite close to being split right down the middle. So is parliament, hence we are not getting anywhere.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 19, 2019 15:48:23 GMT 1
This remain parliament will get their just deserts when the UK gets a general election. I'm not so sure but I guess that discussion is for another day when it comes about. But that said, it really does play into the narrative of parliament against the people and I've no doubt the Tories will push that big time come the next election. I think Johnson was in a good place as soon as he came back with a new deal. Something many said he didn't want, something many said he simply wouldn't be able to achieve. He now has a very clear message to take to the electorate come an election (if of course the UK is still a member of the EU when it comes about).
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 19, 2019 15:58:49 GMT 1
The ancient vote now is it... Is that a new one? I'll file that alongside "People's" Vote and Government of "National Unity"... So is parliament, hence we are not getting anywhere. Well sure, we knew that from the off. We know parliament is split, we know parliament is unable to make a decision. That is the very reason why parliament made the decision to ask and allow the public to make that decision (in the form of a referendum). The very purpose of the referendum was to allow the public to make a decision that parliament was unable to. So they asked the public. The public gave them the answer. And here we are...
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 19, 2019 16:14:11 GMT 1
Well they'll not be voting on the deal today anyhow. So looks as though we now request an extension again. Which to be fair I think the EU will grant. But they must be wondering what the **** is going on our side of things considering they've just finished renegotiated the withdrawal agreement again. What they must think of us. So the farce continues... Think they may catch on soon what’s going on is the EU need to give Parliament a decent deal to vote on to get it through and they haven’t yet! All the EUs fault for thinking they can shaft the UK.......
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 19, 2019 16:19:37 GMT 1
Well they'll not be voting on the deal today anyhow. So looks as though we now request an extension again. Which to be fair I think the EU will grant. But they must be wondering what the **** is going on our side of things considering they've just finished renegotiated the withdrawal agreement again. What they must think of us. So the farce continues... All the EUs fault for thinking they can shaft the UK....... I really don't understand that line of thinking to be honest. I mean I understood the concerns of the first deal agreed in that there were parts of that which could have seen the UK 'trapped' in the EU until the EU were happy to give the OK for the UK to leave...but as I understand it that has now been removed, no such 'trap' now exists. And as this is the withdrawal agreement which is to be in place only during the transition period I don't understand why they are shafting the UK. The most important negotiations haven't even started yet.
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Post by mattmw on Oct 19, 2019 16:29:36 GMT 1
Some DUP MP's seem to be suggesting they will support an amendment to Tuesdays bill supporting a confirmation referendum on Johnson's deal. Billion pounds doesn't buy much loyalty now
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 16:52:40 GMT 1
🤣
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Post by salop27 on Oct 19, 2019 19:54:23 GMT 1
Every poll taken shows public support for Johnson's deal and also gives the Conservatives clearly ahead in general election polls. The mps who have switched parties and brexit blocking mps sitting in pro leave seats will have to face a real people's vote at some point.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 20:05:34 GMT 1
Every poll taken shows public support for Johnson's deal and also gives the Conservatives clearly ahead in general election polls. The mps who have switched parties and brexit blocking mps sitting in pro leave seats will have to face a real people's vote at some point. You take solitude in your polls salop27. Have a lovely evening xx
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 20:06:48 GMT 1
The mps who have switched parties and brexit blocking mps sitting in pro leave seats will have to face a real people's vote at some point. So will those supposedly socialist MPs who voted for the deal which promises nothing for workers rights etc except for the vague verbal words of the most untrustworthy PM of all time.
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Post by Mortgagehound on Oct 19, 2019 20:26:58 GMT 1
Meanwhile a swathe of MPs continue to thwart the will of the people.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 20:37:15 GMT 1
Meanwhile a swathe of MPs continue to thwart the will of the people. All part of an eminently sensible process "The Referendum did not specify a date for leaving and had Brexiters been honest they would have recognized that, if they were serious about their project, it would entail a process of many years to complete it. For that matter, given that we are constantly told that those who voted leave knew exactly what they were voting for, it hardly behoves them now to complain that it ‘should just be done’. It can’t ‘just be done’ and if people voted thinking it could then they didn’t know what they were voting for."
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Post by jamo on Oct 19, 2019 20:44:49 GMT 1
Meanwhile a swathe of MPs continue to thwart the will of the people. Would that be those MP’s who refuse to put the final deal back to the people. That will of the people ? 17.4 million voted leave, 46 million didn’t. That will of the people ? People voting to break up the union of Great Britain, that will of the people ?
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Post by salop27 on Oct 19, 2019 20:51:25 GMT 1
Every poll taken shows public support for Johnson's deal and also gives the Conservatives clearly ahead in general election polls. The mps who have switched parties and brexit blocking mps sitting in pro leave seats will have to face a real people's vote at some point. You take solitude in your polls salop27. Have a lovely evening xx I will thank you.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Oct 19, 2019 20:58:07 GMT 1
You take solitude in your polls salop27. Have a lovely evening xx I will thank you. So are you on the side of Boris with this deal or the side of farage who said it isn't Brexit?
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Post by tvor on Oct 19, 2019 21:06:19 GMT 1
Odds have reduced on the deal being defeated. Starmer states that this deal could lead to a reduction in workers holidays, really? This man is a joke and would be the person in charge of negotiating labour's brexit " deal". A joke? Why, because he's actually read the technicalities of the proposal? Exactly. Keir Starmer did an excellent job of scrutinising the deal given the limited time it had been available before the debate today. He raised a number of very good and significant issues with the deal which, as usual, the Tories failed to properly address. It's blatantly obvious that this deal will be used as a route to a no deal Brexit next year and also to an erosion of hard fought for and hard won workers rights and standards.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Oct 19, 2019 21:09:15 GMT 1
A joke? Why, because he's actually read the technicalities of the proposal? Exactly. Keir Starmer did an excellent job of scrutinising the deal given the limited time it's been available before the debate today. He raised a number of very good and significant issues with the deal which, as usual, the Tories failed to properly address. It's blatantly obvious that this deal will be used as a route to a no deal Brexit next year and also to an erosion of hard fought for and hard won workers rights and standards. Absolutely. The government EU negotiator Barclay also admitted the government haven't done an economic impact assessment of the deal yet, but is expecting all MPs to trust that there's no issues with the deal without it. Ridiculous
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Post by darkshrew on Oct 19, 2019 21:10:21 GMT 1
Meanwhile a swathe of MPs continue to thwart the will of the people. The country is split - polls suggest they are slightly in favour of remain now; seems pretty accurate reflection of the will of the people doesn’t it ?
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Post by salop27 on Oct 19, 2019 21:13:47 GMT 1
So are you on the side of Boris with this deal or the side of farage who said it isn't Brexit? If you have some spare time trawl back through this most entertaining thread it can be seen I've backed a deal every time, so yes I would take this deal as well. Farage came back into this at just the right time and re energised the leave vote but its time for him to take a step back again.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2019 21:58:20 GMT 1
So are you on the side of Boris with this deal or the side of farage who said it isn't Brexit? If you have some spare time trawl back through this most entertaining thread it can be seen I've backed a deal every time, so yes I would take this deal as well. Farage came back into this at just the right time and re energised the leave vote but its time for him to take a step back again. Don't think Farage has it in him to go back into the shadows, especially with an imminent general election. And now he's talking about stopping HS2, which affects Tory areas, and planting more trees and the environment (payments to farmers perhaps), he's going to be gunning for Tory votes.
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Post by mattmw on Oct 20, 2019 0:04:16 GMT 1
Letter sent to EU and brexit extension almost certain to follow. At least it keeps Johnson out of the courts and hopefully a lesson learned that setting meaningless deadlines is a fools game
Time to let Parliament do it’s business in the proper way and examine the deal in all its detail.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 20, 2019 7:24:49 GMT 1
Blimey, as if things aren't crazy enough as they are we now have all this with the letters. All eyes again to Brussels. Be interesting to see how they respond this time around. Surely the first real doubts that an extension will be forthcoming. But again, after all that time and effort being put into renegotiating the withdrawal agreement, we are once again back asking for an extension. What they must be thinking... You can read Johnson's letter here... Text of Boris’s letter to EU: ‘an extension would be damaging to us all’
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 20, 2019 17:28:23 GMT 1
Blimey, as if things aren't crazy enough as they are we now have all this with the letters. All eyes again to Brussels. Be interesting to see how they respond this time around. Surely the first real doubts that an extension will be forthcoming. But again, after all that time and effort being put into renegotiating the withdrawal agreement, we are once again back asking for an extension. What they must be thinking... You can read Johnson's letter here... Text of Boris’s letter to EU: ‘an extension would be damaging to us all’I am not too bothered what they are thinking, all they have to do is put themselves in our shoes. Imagine if any of the other member countries had a 51%/49% split in a referendum? They would want to make sure they did things correctly so as to secure a rosy future outlook and a united country. That's what we must do. 2.5 years wasted by Theresa May and just a few months of additional delay to ensure the biggest decision of the century is right.
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Post by darkshrew on Oct 20, 2019 18:19:08 GMT 1
How can anybody listen to Dominic Raab on Andrew Marr this morning and think that this deal is a good thing ?
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 20, 2019 18:35:57 GMT 1
How can anybody listen to Dominic Raab on Andrew Marr this morning and think that this deal is a good thing ? Just watched the clip. He comes over as not the sort of person who should be anywhere near running anything. I wouldn't trust him to run a bath. For example, the "let's just get this done" line - not, I note, let's get it done properly.
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Post by simianbenzoate on Oct 20, 2019 20:37:10 GMT 1
So is parliament, hence we are not getting anywhere. Well sure, we knew that from the off. We know parliament is split, we know parliament is unable to make a decision. That is the very reason why parliament made the decision to ask and allow the public to make that decision (in the form of a referendum). The very purpose of the referendum was to allow the public to make a decision that parliament was unable to. So they asked the public. The public gave them the answer. And here we are... Did they though? because it wasn't really an issue before the referendum was offered, other than in the conservative party where eurosceptacism had become increasingly likely to fracture the Tories and jeopardise their ability to form a majority government. Of course there's always been discussion of the pros and cons amongst the plebes but never at such a weapons grade level. Parliament is, and was (as leavers will often claim themselves) strongly in favour of remaining as a whole (on a personal level if not the "what i'll actually vote for to appease constituents" level), and had they decided to keep it in Parliament would have enjoyed a comfortable remain vote. Let's call it for what it was. Cameron had no interest in our opinions on Brexit other than assuming he'd get an obvious remain indication with which to silence internal factional warfare. He done F^%$*ed up.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Oct 20, 2019 20:54:01 GMT 1
Well sure, we knew that from the off. We know parliament is split, we know parliament is unable to make a decision. That is the very reason why parliament made the decision to ask and allow the public to make that decision (in the form of a referendum). The very purpose of the referendum was to allow the public to make a decision that parliament was unable to. So they asked the public. The public gave them the answer. And here we are... Did they though? because it wasn't really an issue before the referendum was offered, other than in the conservative party where eurosceptacism had become increasingly likely to fracture the Tories and jeopardise their ability to form a majority government. Of course there's always been discussion of the pros and cons amongst the plebes but never at such a weapons grade level. Parliament is, and was (as leavers will often claim themselves) strongly in favour of remaining as a whole (on a personal level if not the "what i'll actually vote for to appease constituents" level), and had they decided to keep it in Parliament would have enjoyed a comfortable remain vote. Let's call it for what it was. Cameron had no interest in our opinions on Brexit other than assuming he'd get an obvious remain indication with which to silence internal factional warfare. He done F^%$*ed up. Absolutely, I can remember bugger all demand for us to withdraw or any kind of vote besides the Eurosceptics in the Tory party
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Post by salop27 on Oct 20, 2019 21:19:22 GMT 1
Doesn't matter really who called the referendum and why. Simple fact is we had one, despite it being only advisory everyone said they'd respect the result. Still waiting... If anyone can find any clips of politicians saying they would not respect the result, before the referendum, then please share.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 20, 2019 21:25:57 GMT 1
Doesn't matter really who called the referendum and why. Simple fact is we had one, despite it being only advisory everyone said they'd respect the result. Still waiting... If anyone can find any clips of politicians saying they would not respect the result, before the referendum, then please share. Usually when a politician (or even a football manager) says they respect something it means they are going to totally ignore it. Still waiting for that.
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Post by simianbenzoate on Oct 20, 2019 22:22:17 GMT 1
Doesn't matter really who called the referendum and why. Simple fact is we had one, despite it being only advisory everyone said they'd respect the result. Still waiting... If anyone can find any clips of politicians saying they would not respect the result, before the referendum, then please share. Parliament is sovereign. therefore, it cannot put into place legislation that binds a future government i.e. everything can be amended, repealed or replaced. So as far as the "obligation" to implement any legislation goes, it's irrelevant whether an MP did or didn't say they'd respect it. As you admit yourself, it was advisory, as the very concept of a binding referendum undermines the concept of a soverign parliament, something you lot are a bit keen on, i've heard
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