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Post by shrewsace on Oct 18, 2019 19:38:34 GMT 1
The fact Mogg and the ERG lot will vote for this tells you everything you need to know.
This was never about 'sovereignty', 'democracy' or 'taking back control' - that was all bulls**t.
What this has always been about - ever since Cameron called referendum - is Tory factionalism and who has control of the party.
Brexit is merely the football with which they have played that game.
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Post by mattmw on Oct 18, 2019 20:23:11 GMT 1
Quite fun seeing the brexit supporting MP's like Raab explaining how great a deal it is for Northern Ireland with the frictionless trade they will have with the EU under the deal. Can see that one being replayed a fair bit in the coming years
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Post by shrewsace on Oct 18, 2019 20:52:55 GMT 1
Quite fun seeing the brexit supporting MP's like Raab explaining how great a deal it is for Northern Ireland with the frictionless trade they will have with the EU under the deal. Can see that one being replayed a fair bit in the coming years 😂
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 18, 2019 21:00:33 GMT 1
Cummings is a significant opponent and the present situation shows that. The reality is that the Conservative Party is on the verge of a significant general election victory if it is fought on the single issue of the EU. The clear danger of this agreement is the possibility of No deal in 2020. So let's forget this nonsense of getting Brexit done. Domestic political power will be the decisive factor in employee, consumer and environmental protection. The Labour party should be cognisant of this given that it was founded to provide working class representation in parliament to vote for resources that the economy was not otherwise providing. However, and it is a comment on the state of the Labour Party, a few MPs are quoted as finding "it hard" to decide to vote against Johnson's deal. Even, perversely, where they have voted against May's deal on at least one occasion.
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Post by shrewsace on Oct 18, 2019 21:05:09 GMT 1
Sounds like Northern Ireland is on to a sweet, sweet thing.
How do we in England, Wales and Scotland get a piece?
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Post by frankwellshrews on Oct 18, 2019 21:09:53 GMT 1
Quite fun seeing the brexit supporting MP's like Raab explaining how great a deal it is for Northern Ireland with the frictionless trade they will have with the EU under the deal. Can see that one being replayed a fair bit in the coming years Sums the whole sorry affair up doesn't it? Maybe the Tory party should look into this frictionless trade with the EU. Could it work for the whole UK?
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Post by salop27 on Oct 18, 2019 22:29:19 GMT 1
Sounds like Northern Ireland is on to a sweet, sweet thing. How do we in England, Wales and Scotland get a piece? Move to Northern Ireland 😁😁😁
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Post by tvor on Oct 18, 2019 23:03:53 GMT 1
www.thearticle.com/the-hypocrisy-of-the-dup-is-beyond-staggering" The DUP wants alignment with the rest of the UK when it comes to Brexit. This is an understandable, but staggeringly difficult, demand with which to comply, given that there will be a land border between the EU and the UK on the island of Ireland once we leave. Yet, in other areas, notably on social issues, it insists on being able differentiate within the six counties.
When David Cameron and Nick Clegg’s coalition government brought in the landmark legislation to allow same-sex couples to marry, Northern Ireland was exempt. In 2015 there was actually a majority for same-sex marriage in the Stormont Assembly, but it was blocked by one party… I’ll give you three guesses.
Yes, the DUP filed what is called a petition of concern. This meant that the proposal needed a cross-community majority, and failed. Similar is true of abortion, which is not legal in Northern Ireland, unlike the rest of the UK.
The Stormont Assembly has not sat for nearly three years. However, the DUP has now magically managed to get its act together, with 27 of its MLAs backing a call for it to return. The reason? If it is not sitting by 31 October, same-sex marriage and abortion will both become legal in Northern Ireland. That potential change follows extensive campaigning by, among others, Labour MP Stella Creasey.
It is worth pausing to fully take that in. The DUP, the biggest single party in the Stormont Assembly, could not motivate itself to bring the institution back together to deal with Brexit or the myriad other issues facing the people of Northern Ireland. But it can do so to stop those progressive law changes."
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Post by shrewinjapan on Oct 18, 2019 23:35:01 GMT 1
John Baron MP, a hard brexiteer, openly revealing that he has already been told by senior government ministers (Raab, Gove) to back the deal because is a route to a hard no deal exit at the end of next year.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 19, 2019 7:27:16 GMT 1
John Baron MP, a hard brexiteer, openly revealing that he has already been told by senior government ministers (Raab, Gove) to back the deal because is a route to a hard no deal exit at the end of next year. Where did he say that? Maybe I missed something but this is what John Baron has said in an interview that some seem to be focusing on... I think most of us in Parliament prefer a good deal to no deal, but many of us also accept the reality of life if you're like when negotiating that you've got to leave no-deal on the table.
That helps to make for a better deal when talking about a trade deal up to December 2020, and because that possibility exists after December 2020, I think it will focus minds within the negotiations and we'll get a good trade deal. That is our hope.
I think the issue many people had with May's deal was that it effectively gave the EU a veto on the UK leaving aspects of the EU. That is something they again wish to avoid with Johnson's deal. That is what they are referring to, that it is not the EU who decide as and when those negotiations are completed (meaning they may never will be).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 7:49:14 GMT 1
It appears, judging by what has been said this morning, that different empty promises have been made to various waverers. We all trust Boris, don't we?
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Post by shrewinjapan on Oct 19, 2019 8:20:35 GMT 1
John Baron MP, a hard brexiteer, openly revealing that he has already been told by senior government ministers (Raab, Gove) to back the deal because is a route to a hard no deal exit at the end of next year. Where did he say that? Maybe I missed something but this is what John Baron has said in an interview that some seem to be focusing on... I think most of us in Parliament prefer a good deal to no deal, but many of us also accept the reality of life if you're like when negotiating that you've got to leave no-deal on the table.
That helps to make for a better deal when talking about a trade deal up to December 2020, and because that possibility exists after December 2020, I think it will focus minds within the negotiations and we'll get a good trade deal. That is our hope.
I think the issue many people had with May's deal was that it effectively gave the EU a veto on the UK leaving aspects of the EU. That is something they again wish to avoid with Johnson's deal. That is what they are referring to, that it is not the EU who decide as and when those negotiations are completed (meaning they may never will be). It was in a video clip I saw on Twitter - he said that the so-called ERG "Spartans" (FFS) had been given assurance by Gove and Raab that if no FTA was agreed by the Dec 2020 deadline the govt would not seek extension of the transition period and would default to no deal.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 19, 2019 8:59:12 GMT 1
Where did he say that? Maybe I missed something but this is what John Baron has said in an interview that some seem to be focusing on... I think most of us in Parliament prefer a good deal to no deal, but many of us also accept the reality of life if you're like when negotiating that you've got to leave no-deal on the table.
That helps to make for a better deal when talking about a trade deal up to December 2020, and because that possibility exists after December 2020, I think it will focus minds within the negotiations and we'll get a good trade deal. That is our hope.
I think the issue many people had with May's deal was that it effectively gave the EU a veto on the UK leaving aspects of the EU. That is something they again wish to avoid with Johnson's deal. That is what they are referring to, that it is not the EU who decide as and when those negotiations are completed (meaning they may never will be). It was in a video clip I saw on Twitter - he said that the so-called ERG "Spartans" (FFS) had been given assurance by Gove and Raab that if no FTA was agreed by the Dec 2020 deadline the govt would not seek extension of the transition period and would default to no deal. OK, so I guess it's how people are going to read those comments. As what I included above doesn't suggest that they are going to vote for it because it will lead to no deal. Just that no deal will not be taken off the table as a result, that the EU can not effectively keep negotiations ongoing ad infinitum in order to keep the UK tied to the EU. That, for me, is the assurances they are seeking. Because that is the very reason they didn't vote for May's deal, because the backstop effectively gave the EU a veto...that is what they want to make sure is not again in place with this new deal. Just think it's important that people can see or hear exactly what he said. I'd urge people to do so when people are looking to interpret what others are saying.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Oct 19, 2019 10:16:42 GMT 1
so the brexit party is totally against the deal and saying that it's worse than May's deal...
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2019 10:21:51 GMT 1
Sounds like Northern Ireland is on to a sweet, sweet thing. How do we in England, Wales and Scotland get a piece? Move to Northern Ireland 😁😁😁 Be so many moving it would sink if this deal went through.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2019 10:24:22 GMT 1
so the brexit party is totally against the deal and saying that it's worse than May's deal... Suppose that could be to do with any deal rendering the Brexit party obsolete to be fair?
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Post by shrewinjapan on Oct 19, 2019 10:30:58 GMT 1
so the brexit party is totally against the deal and saying that it's worse than May's deal... Suppose that could be to do with any deal rendering the Brexit party obsolete to be fair? One silver lining to Brexit will be no longer having those numpties behaving like children and being a national embarrassment in Strasbourg.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Oct 19, 2019 12:42:18 GMT 1
It's going to pass, isn't it?
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Post by salop27 on Oct 19, 2019 12:54:37 GMT 1
Odds have reduced on the deal being defeated. Starmer states that this deal could lead to a reduction in workers holidays, really? This man is a joke and would be the person in charge of negotiating labour's brexit " deal".
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Post by mattmw on Oct 19, 2019 12:54:45 GMT 1
It's going to pass, isn't it? Odds on the Bill passing are Yes 13/8 and 4/9 No, which has drifted a bit since Yes was 5/6 yesterday. Not quite sure why as the numbers in Parliament would seem to suggest the Bill should pass. Maybe some members of the ERG are lumping money on the outcome just incase
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Post by stfcfan87 on Oct 19, 2019 13:18:27 GMT 1
Odds have reduced on the deal being defeated. Starmer states that this deal could lead to a reduction in workers holidays, really? This man is a joke and would be the person in charge of negotiating labour's brexit " deal". A joke? Why, because he's actually read the technicalities of the proposal?
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2019 13:50:02 GMT 1
Is there still anybody daft enough to think that Boris is desperate to get the best deal for the country? Boris stands for self interest, ERG interest and Conservative party interest.
Surely people realise by now, Boris is simply not to be trusted.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2019 14:46:02 GMT 1
Half the Tory party sounding like double glazing salesmen "This deal needs to be signed up to today".
If the voters see through what the Tory party has become - a party where Ken Clarke/Philip Hammond type Conservative views are not welcome, then half the Tory party will be double glazing salesmen after the next election
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Post by mattmw on Oct 19, 2019 14:55:48 GMT 1
Sovereign Parliament strikes again
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2019 15:03:05 GMT 1
Sovereign Parliament strikes again And shifty Johnson squirms and wiggles onto more shady antics. He just can't be straight can he? If he had agreed to stop a 31st October no-deal we would be having the general election he wanted by now. So much for the Conservatives being the party of law and order when the Prime Minister says he is going to defy what we all thought was the law by not asking for an extension, what sort of example does that set? Will he be rescinding Article 50 instead?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 19, 2019 15:07:33 GMT 1
Well they'll not be voting on the deal today anyhow. So looks as though we now request an extension again. Which to be fair I think the EU will grant. But they must be wondering what the **** is going on our side of things considering they've just finished renegotiated the withdrawal agreement again. What they must think of us. So the farce continues...
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2019 15:14:04 GMT 1
Well they'll not be voting on the deal today anyhow. So looks as though we now request an extension again. Which to be fair I think the EU will grant. But they must be wondering what the **** is going on our side of things considering they've just finished renegotiated the withdrawal agreement again. What they must think of us. So the farce continues... The ancient vote that the Tory's are still desperate to push through was a 51%/49% split, so it's been clear for 3.5 years that we are not sure about leaving.
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Post by salop27 on Oct 19, 2019 15:31:57 GMT 1
This remain parliament will get their just deserts when the UK gets a general election.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2019 15:33:49 GMT 1
This remain parliament will get their just deserts when the UK gets a general election. Could be having an election now if Boris had been straight enough to stop any no-deal during it.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 19, 2019 15:39:01 GMT 1
Well they'll not be voting on the deal today anyhow. So looks as though we now request an extension again. Which to be fair I think the EU will grant. But they must be wondering what the **** is going on our side of things considering they've just finished renegotiated the withdrawal agreement again. What they must think of us. So the farce continues... The ancient vote that the Tory's are still desperate to push through was a 51%/49% split, so it's been clear for 3.5 years that we are not sure about leaving. The ancient vote now is it... Is that a new one? I'll file that alongside "People's" Vote and Government of "National Unity"...
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