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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 9:45:09 GMT 1
I’m sure Percy is a lovely fella in the real world and I enjoy his thought provoking contributions on here, some I agree with and some I don’t. Having said that he hasn’t quashed the myth that people who work in the financial sector are all arrogant t0ssers. It is interesting though what both Matt and Percy have said about graduate candidates and since I started working in education I wonder if the problem goes deeper and actually starts in compulsory education. What I mean by this is schools dance to OFSTED’s tune. Teachers and support staff ‘teach’ to meet the targets set by Government via OFSTED. This means that we don’t teach free thinking in this country, but coach to preordained targets and standards. I dunno if that makes sense. It's true that you do not often get to the top in the city being a nice guy - sharks and corks I see many of, but very few Angels. Difficult also not to become arrogant when you are surrounded by sycophants. So yes, arrogant tossers is a fair evaluation. i think that you have a point on the style of education being results led rather than encouraging the journey to the answer and critical thinking. This though seems to get rectified in the good universities when the courses allow it e.g. Sciences, economics, maths, engineering - courses like law, politics, geography, history, languages you have to look at the person. Aside for the critical thinking / problem solving aspect, the really big differentiator is attitude; those prepared to learn and work hard, and those who expect everything on a plate and be told they are great for just showing up. I'm not sure if that is the fault of the education process or society; but it's genuinely something we see differ by university (and course) and not grades - sorry Lenny. My first degree from Wolverhampton encouraged reflective practise and the counselling side of it was a hard process of self evaluation which led to much soul searching and my hopefully becoming a better person. Very much what Shrewcastle was talking about. My second degree from the OU, which is in History, encouraged critical thinking and the analysis skills that any employer would/should value (outside of your sector obvs, as you need the specialist degree). Now both these degrees where done while in full time employment, with a family and all the commitment that entails and many late nights and ruined weekends. I got an ordinary degree from Wolves because I couldn’t fund (at the time) the honours, but my results suggested a first. I got a first from the OU and I can assure you that those aren’t handed out for just turning up. The point is that these two uni’s aren’t in your top ten and many people on B & A probably didn’t go to a uni on your list. Yet they are hard working, committed and intelligent on many levels, emotionally, academically, etc, etc. I can understand when people react to the term ‘Dross’ negatively. While I appreciate you have 1000’s of applications a year for your internships, do you ever wonder if you’re missing out on top candidates from other uni’s outside your top 10? If, for some reason, you can’t fill the posts from the 10 do you take a punt on those outside, or just leave them unfilled? Do you look at socio – economic backgrounds while considering candidates?
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Post by percy on Mar 1, 2015 10:23:04 GMT 1
I hear what you are saying and I'm sad to say that yes we will miss some real gems out there. The sad thing is that so will evryone else - it's not like football or music where the ability will shine through - these talents are genuinely lost.
Personally I don't consider what the parents do - why I was applying for jobs I was given a hard time because my mum was a teacher and my dad worked for the council; when the interviewer suggested that I was not suited to be anything other than a civil servant with that background I told the interviewer (from KPMG) where to go and walked out - I think it is below the belt and not relevant to look at that.
I do see it as a huge positive if the candidate came from the state sector rather than public school - it hints at a drive, initiative and strength of character that the silver spoon fed may lack.
I've a huge admiration for those who get a degree whilst in full time work (and often with families) - my wife did that when we were first married. In the late 90s we did experiment with "older hires" - typically ex-army or those with post grads from other walks of life. A couple of them did well and I'm not sure why we stopped it, but we did.
The poster who refers to jobs for the boys is plain wrong. Yes, I am absolutely certain I can get my kids an interview with any of the big investment banks, legal firms or accountants; but whether they get a job or not is down to them.
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Post by shrewed46 on Mar 1, 2015 11:05:01 GMT 1
I wonder how typical your organisation is, although it is many years since I worked with financial institution, I do have relatives that work in the city who would tell you that the city, in many places, is rife with nepotism and elitism.
One only needs to read the stories of wage free internships where only those with sizable financial backing are able to "apply".
What I find surprising is that your company has such a narrow recruitment procedure, anyone with an modicum of understanding knows that all faculties are not equal and even at your elite universities some faculties are poorer than the equivalent faculties at " dross" universities. An example Stratclyde University is rated 2nd for Accounting and Finance whereas Durham is 14th.
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Post by percy on Mar 1, 2015 11:31:21 GMT 1
I wonder how typical your organisation is, although it is many years since I worked with financial institution, I do have relatives that work in the city who would tell you that the city, in many places, is rife with nepotism and elitism. One only needs to read the stories of wage free internships where only those with sizable financial backing are able to "apply". What I find surprising is that your company has such a narrow recruitment procedure, anyone with an modicum of understanding knows that all faculties are not equal and even at your elite universities some faculties are poorer than the equivalent faculties at " Dross" universities. An example Stratclyde University is rated 2nd for Accounting and Finance whereas Durham is 14th. As I say - for me nepotism exists only to the extent of getting you an interview (which is not to be dismissed as irrelevant) but I am only considering the "professional" staff / "exec" and not the admin staff. If any financial insititution were to employ passengers in the "professional"/ "exec" staff nowadays it would cause too much noise and just couldn't happen - I would suggest that anyone who says it does happen can only be talking about private banking where good looks and carisma are key qualities but connections can be just as valuable. For admin staff it is entirely possible as it is in any workplace anywhere in the world. Pay free internships are certainly not the norm but it is true that they exist and for the others you couldn't survive as an intern unless you live rent free which does make it difficult for many - not all interns are equal however and that is addressed in how we pay those we see as having a bright future (we have around 5 in this years intake who we provide an accommodation allowance too because they would otherwise not have been able to work in London). Please not internships last only 3-6 months typically. You may have noticed that I also refer to different courses at the universities - oddly enough we do know what we are doing and are aware of the difference in quality between faculties which extends to individual courses within faculties as well. The fact that this is well known is part of the natural selection process performed for us by both students and the universites - abhorrent as it seems to be that I choose to rely in part upon it. I do feel for those like Lenny above who go into their unversity and course selection process blind as it really does affect their prospects (both through the perceptions of "arrogant tossers" like me and also because of how it shapes them as an individual).
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Post by champagneprince on Mar 1, 2015 16:04:35 GMT 1
Kids may not achieve grades good enough to get into the top universities for many reasons. How about:
- rubbish teachers (many reasons for rubishness) - personal circumstances (of which there are also many) - ill health/absence at a critical period in their life
This doesn't mean that they wouldn't be your greatest employee ever!
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Post by percy on Mar 1, 2015 17:54:59 GMT 1
Kids may not achieve grades good enough to get into the top universities for many reasons. How about: - rubbish teachers (many reasons for rubishness) - personal circumstances (of which there are also many) - ill health/absence at a critical period in their life This doesn't mean that they wouldn't be your greatest employee ever! Of course you are correct; but it is not possible to look at every story behind the CV so how do they get to show their potential worth ? Do you honestly expect firms to dorp minimum criteria for jobs and interview anyone based on the fact that they may have been unlucky but are really great underneath ?
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Post by lenny on Mar 1, 2015 18:21:43 GMT 1
Of course it's difficult with such large numbers of applicants, and no system will ever be perfect. I get that. I also get that my degree will be more positively viewed than if I obtained the same result from Leeds Met (for example). Question - do you actively discourage applicants from the other universities from wasting their time in applying, only to be instantly rejected, when posting job vacancies? And an extra one - I studied Critical Thinking as an extra AS level. Would that be useless if I came from York Uni, or as you highlighted it as one of the qualities lacking from its graduates, would it be reconsidered?
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Post by percy on Mar 1, 2015 19:10:49 GMT 1
Of course it's difficult with such large numbers of applicants, and no system will ever be perfect. I get that. I also get that my degree will be more positively viewed than if I obtained the same result from Leeds Met (for example). Question - do you actively discourage applicants from the other universities from wasting their time in applying, only to be instantly rejected, when posting job vacancies? And an extra one - I studied Critical Thinking as an extra AS level. Would that be useless if I came from York Uni, or as you highlighted it as one of the qualities lacking from its graduates, would it be reconsidered? Everyone is free to apply - for grad jobs if there are too many applicants then they need to be filtered to a manageable number - the first filer to be applied is on university / course. If we don't get too many applicants or if we are doing a milk round then we may well look outside the normal university; but at the moment there are no shortages in applicants. For non-graduate jobs (ie those with a few years experience) the university is less relevant than the previous employer and role but still considered in the first couple of job changes. Oxbridge background tends to linger even longer. Critical Thinking as a qualification is not considered more than General Studies was in the past. The A levels to stick to in my opinion are Maths, English and Sciences but it's not the end of the world if you do a language as well. Best degrees to get in are Maths, Engineering, Economics (if heavy on econometrics rather than history of economic thought) and sciences (particularly physics) - I am pushing my kids towards computer sciences/engineering as they will be the most useful in the future. Avoid accounting and law at university as it is seen better to convert to those in professional practice.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Mar 2, 2015 11:51:39 GMT 1
Interesting thread, I guess Percy's advice is specific to the financial sector and I found that people with Arts degrees did very well in the business I was in. My favourite was the zoology graduate who came into my department as a trainee and 10 years later was MD of our business in Poland.
However careful you are about recruitment you never really know how people are going to fare in the world of work, some with brilliant academic achievements fail, often because they think they are brighter than they are and don't have the people skills, while the lesser lights come into their own.
I also agree with the criticism of targets in education, management by target was creeping into business before I retired and I hated it. Targets destroy initiative and creative thinking, are a tool of lazy ignorant senior management and distort the way line managers behave.
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