|
Post by townfanincrewe on Feb 28, 2015 0:32:06 GMT 1
In the beginning Uni was free to all. Then the Tories Decided they need to charge £9000 a year to go . The Liberals said no then did a u turn. Now labour want to knock it down to £6000 a year. Well that's great but what about the poor sods like my son who started three years ago and will have to pay the full £27,000 back but looks like being one of the only ones who will. I was fine when It was free, fine Paying £9,000 a year And I'd be fine paying £6,000 but now because They are born the wrong year they will have to pay £9,000 more than any one else in the country Can this be right? It's my fault he was born the year he was not his!
|
|
|
Post by mattmw on Feb 28, 2015 0:41:10 GMT 1
Shouldn't worry too much Labour need to win the election first before this becomes policy and even if they do they will probably do a Clegg and back track on it
On a wider note I think the mad rush to get so many more students to go to university from the mid 90s has been a total farce, started by Labour and continued up to now. Most university courses are hardly even A level class of 25 years ago and have left students with a poor skill set and a massive debt and in most cases no better equipped to get a job than when they left school
Whole system needs revamping and designed much more with potential employers so really meaningful courses are run
|
|
|
Post by townfanincrewe on Feb 28, 2015 0:54:44 GMT 1
I did want him to do an apprenticeship, get paid, no debt and get a job at the end but think that's because I wish I'd be able to do one. In the 80's it was all £23.50 a week for a 6 months work on a YTS . I'm really proud of him as he's the first of our family ever to go to uni, just a bit p**sed off the way Politicians keep changing the rules.
|
|
|
Post by heavyglow on Feb 28, 2015 7:13:49 GMT 1
In the beginning Uni was free to all. Then the Tories Decided they need to charge £9000 a year to go You missed an important few steps between free university education and the upper threshold being raised to £9k pa under Conservative rule.
|
|
|
Post by percy on Feb 28, 2015 8:51:08 GMT 1
The quality of those coming from second and lower tier universities has declined rapidly over the last 10 years - agree with the comment above re not being much better than a levels now. Certainly needs to be upped - I only consider applicants from less than 10 universities now for our intern programmes.
Milliband is an arse trying to buy votes, let's not see it as anything more than that - a very poor policy choice. As for the less well off getting a higher grant - meaningless and any parent running their own company will get it for their kid through simple income planning - very naive.
|
|
|
Post by atcham jack on Feb 28, 2015 9:27:52 GMT 1
labour are doing this and scrapping pensioners tax allowance as part payment. so far labour has lost Scotland, now the grey vote, cannot see labour doing well
|
|
|
Post by shrewcastle on Feb 28, 2015 9:59:27 GMT 1
As I teach at one of the second tier universities I'd be interested to know what evidence people have for claiming that 'most university courses are hardly even A level class of 25 years ago': is this evidence drawn from personal experience or from things read in Daily Mail columns? Quality education is available to students if they want to make use of it; ever university knows they have to provide quality courses, if not they won't recruit, courses will be closed (see University of Ulster recently), and staff will be laid off.
|
|
Shrewsfan1985
The Loggerheads
Posts: 23,854
My first team is..: Shrewsbury
|
Post by Shrewsfan1985 on Feb 28, 2015 11:29:52 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by shrewed46 on Feb 28, 2015 12:41:19 GMT 1
labour are doing this and scr@pping pensioners tax allowance as part payment. so far labour has lost Scotland, now the grey vote, cannot see labour doing well Before going off at the deep end. What is being proposed is that people earning in excess of 150,000 will no longer get tax relief at 45% on their pension contributions but will only get 20%. Point 2 - Extra Maintenance allowance of 400 is only payable to students whose parents earn less than 42500. So students will be at least 9000 in debt by the end of their 3 year course the poorest will be 10200 less in debt. Point 3 - Under the current Tory policy it is estimated that 50% of loans will never be repaid. Adding billions to the national debt. Sometimes it is worth reading the detail rather than the Daily Mail headlines.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 12:58:27 GMT 1
The quality of those coming from second and lower tier universities has declined rapidly over the last 10 years - agree with the comment above re not being much better than a levels now. Certainly needs to be upped - I only consider applicants from less than 10 universities now for our intern programmes. Milliband is an arse trying to buy votes, let's not see it as anything more than that - a very poor policy choice. As for the less well off getting a higher grant - meaningless and any parent running their own company will get it for their kid through simple income planning - very naive. Are these 10 universities all included the Russell group? Where does an institution like the Open University sit in the ‘hierarchy’ of universities? I find the idea that a candidate will be rejected because they went to the wrong university pretty abhorrent, but there you go.
|
|
|
Post by percy on Feb 28, 2015 13:06:30 GMT 1
As I teach at one of the second tier universities I'd be interested to know what evidence people have for claiming that 'most university courses are hardly even A level class of 25 years ago': is this evidence drawn from personal experience or from things read in Daily Mail columns? Quality education is available to students if they want to make use of it; ever university knows they have to provide quality courses, if not they won't recruit, courses will be closed (see University of Ulster recently), and staff will be laid off. Personal experience - the spark of initiative to take control and the ability to solve problems unaided has significantly dipped; there seems to be much more need now to be guided and by God they need to be managed or they go off on tangents or simply surf the internet claiming they had nothing to do. When it then comes to listening to instruction you get a bizarre turnaround as then you are greeted with closed ears and open mouths as they tell you what they think; left alone they are lost but try to tell them what to do and they are experts. The supreme indifference when they are admonished and ultimately let go is incredible - I appreciate they are young and think that the world is full of opportunity but they have to realise that you have to start at the bottom and take the opportunities presented; success is for those who are prepared to work for it. My part of the Group takes on circa 50 UK graduates per year - outside Oxbridge, Warwick, Exeter, St Andrews, LSE, UCL and Imperial + Durham, Reading and Bath only for certain subjects we stopped looking at students because of the drop-out rate (or rather release rate) - it was close to 100%.
|
|
|
Post by percy on Feb 28, 2015 13:14:20 GMT 1
The quality of those coming from second and lower tier universities has declined rapidly over the last 10 years - agree with the comment above re not being much better than a levels now. Certainly needs to be upped - I only consider applicants from less than 10 universities now for our intern programmes. Milliband is an arse trying to buy votes, let's not see it as anything more than that - a very poor policy choice. As for the less well off getting a higher grant - meaningless and any parent running their own company will get it for their kid through simple income planning - very naive. Are these 10 universities all included the Russell group? Where does an institution like the Open University sit in the ‘hierarchy’ of universities? I find the idea that a candidate will be rejected because they went to the wrong university pretty abhorrent, but there you go. You may find it abhorrent, but with 1000s applying you simply don't have time to interview everyone and need a filter to bring it to a sensible level. It used to be A level results, but now it is university. Those companies that fish outside the top universities get lower quality candidates and have to cope with more HR issues and spend more on training to ultimately get less talented people - that may not be the reality but it is certainly a perception that is shared amongst my peers. In the city we are becoming more like France every year in university snobbery - it is a fact of life now and will be self perpetuating as the students who want to get on compete for the select list ofuniversities to go to and the dross go elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by buryshrew on Feb 28, 2015 13:22:28 GMT 1
Dross. Hmmm
|
|
|
Post by shrewed46 on Feb 28, 2015 13:26:38 GMT 1
The quality of those coming from second and lower tier universities has declined rapidly over the last 10 years - agree with the comment above re not being much better than a levels now. Certainly needs to be upped - I only consider applicants from less than 10 universities now for our intern programmes. Milliband is an arse trying to buy votes, let's not see it as anything more than that - a very poor policy choice. As for the less well off getting a higher grant - meaningless and any parent running their own company will get it for their kid through simple income planning - very naive. Are these 10 universities all included the Russell group? Where does an institution like the Open University sit in the ‘hierarchy’ of universities? I find the idea that a candidate will be rejected because they went to the wrong university pretty abhorrent, but there you go. They are also likely to be offered a job if they went to the right school. These city jobs are a law unto themselves, much more a case of who you know rather than what you know.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 13:26:50 GMT 1
Are these 10 universities all included the Russell group? Where does an institution like the Open University sit in the ‘hierarchy’ of universities? I find the idea that a candidate will be rejected because they went to the wrong university pretty abhorrent, but there you go. In the city we are becoming more like France every year in university snobbery - it is a fact of life now and will be self perpetuating as the students who want to get on compete for the select list ofuniversities to go to and the dross go elsewhere. fliping hell. Dross.
|
|
|
Post by jamo on Feb 28, 2015 13:33:36 GMT 1
percy seems like a nice chap. what a lovely chap he'd be to work for.
|
|
|
Post by jamo on Feb 28, 2015 13:34:02 GMT 1
percy seems like a nice bloke. what a lovely chap he'd be to work for.
|
|
|
Post by lenny on Feb 28, 2015 13:46:09 GMT 1
Speaking as someone who goes to one of those so-called 'better' universities, I find it concerning that had I chosen to go to York or Southampton instead for personal reasons - a decision I had to make and took a long time over - I would have been rejected out of hand, irrespective of my qualifications (which are surely more pertinent than a decision which can be based on a multitude of factors). I also would have been rejected had I gone to those over Reading, despite them being higher ranked and harder to get in to. Regarding the tuition fees cut - all for it if it means I get less debt! If not I'm against it and it's terrible.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 14:17:32 GMT 1
Under which government watch brought down the criteria of getting into Uni?? oh lets rush back to sending every tom dick and harry for a 3 year state sponsored p**s up eh?? don't worry if you buggered up your free 11 years....
|
|
|
Post by percy on Feb 28, 2015 14:24:23 GMT 1
percy seems like a nice bloke. what a lovely chap he'd be to work for. Businesses aren't charities - we cannot afford to take on those who won't make a positive contribution. Everyone is not equal - whether it be by attitude, natural ability or education. Is it offensive to term those I wouldn't consider recruiting as dross - well yes, ok, let's call them the alsorans - better ? I have no doubt that I'm not the nicest boss in the world; but with unintended staff turnover at less than 5% for more than 10 years and none of my direct reports leaving in that time, I'm comfortable.
|
|
|
Post by mattmw on Feb 28, 2015 14:27:29 GMT 1
I suspect I don't agree with Percy on many things but the issue of problem solving in graduates, and ability to think outside the box (excuse the jargon) is one of the biggest issues I've found with recruiting too
University courses seem to be good in getting students through a course and providing them with a series of facts about a subject, and models of service delivery, but there seems to have been a decline in the more academic, problem solving, adaptable graduates coming through
A few of my friends work as lecturers and say its much more driven by getting large groups of students to pass a course rather than the 1:1 tuition and more rounded academic development that took place 25 years ago.
This has led to lots of students coming out of university with good grades, but there are so many now it's tough to work out who the quality ones are. Think about 40% of graduates are now in jobs that don't require a degree. Just think we are selling young people the idea university is the way to go, when actually it's becoming a much less secure way of guaranteeing your employability. Add on the debt you build up at the end of it and I'd definitely think twice about going to Uni if I was 18 again
|
|
|
Post by percy on Feb 28, 2015 14:31:52 GMT 1
Are these 10 universities all included the Russell group? Where does an institution like the Open University sit in the ‘hierarchy’ of universities? I find the idea that a candidate will be rejected because they went to the wrong university pretty abhorrent, but there you go. They are also likely to be offered a job if they went to the right school. These city jobs are a law unto themselves, much more a case of who you know rather than what you know. Knowing someone can help you through the door, but the nepotism died a long time ago in the city where ability and results are all that really matters now. Quite often it actually works against people if they went to one of the silver spoon schools. It's true that there are far fewer non-public school types coming in to the city now - but we don't have that as a selection criteria at all; quite the reverse infact - it is recognised that getting an Oxbridge degree after going to a comp is a much bigger achievement than if you are an old Etonian.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 18:12:23 GMT 1
Under which government watch brought down the criteria of getting into Uni?? oh lets rush back to sending every tom dick and harry for a 3 year state sponsored p**s up eh?? don't worry if you buggered up your free 11 years.... Wasn't it the tories who did away with all the polytechnics Maggie?
|
|
|
Post by shrewcastle on Feb 28, 2015 18:42:57 GMT 1
Universities fulfill multiple roles in society and one could argue that supplying graduates for private companies is not the primary one (making better citizens is, in my view, the key aim of humanities degrees). Students get many things out of their time at university: I'd like to think the vast majority of students who go to university come out better people and better citizens than when they went in. I can also see that many people do not make the most of their time at university, but that is hardly the fault of university staff.
|
|
|
Post by QuorndonShrew on Feb 28, 2015 21:07:22 GMT 1
Under Labour higher education essentially became a god given right for everybody and they opened the gates to huge numbers of university applicants which were simply unsustainable given the lack of funding.
It's simple really. More students = more degrees, more lecturers, more housing, more libraries, more resources, I could go on.
Students have been sold polytechnics as universities and falsely lead to believe that a 1st class degree in one of them is equal to one at Oxford, Durham or any other university in the country in an attempt to bridge the 'class divide' that they rinse at every opportunity.
In the same way they created the other scurge of all young people - zero hours contracts, it was Labour that brought in tuition fees in the first place.
Honestly, how anyone can trust this lot to shape the future of our country.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 1:09:06 GMT 1
Dross?
I genuinely hope the real you is a better you than the c***y messageboard you.
|
|
|
Post by heavyglow on Mar 1, 2015 1:51:34 GMT 1
Pretty much everything Percy has said seems reasonable to me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 8:38:10 GMT 1
I’m sure Percy is a lovely fella in the real world and I enjoy his thought provoking contributions on here, some I agree with and some I don’t. Having said that he hasn’t quashed the myth that people who work in the financial sector are all arrogant t0ssers.
It is interesting though what both Matt and Percy have said about graduate candidates and since I started working in education I wonder if the problem goes deeper and actually starts in compulsory education.
What I mean by this is schools dance to OFSTED’s tune. Teachers and support staff ‘teach’ to meet the targets set by Government via OFSTED. This means that we don’t teach free thinking in this country, but coach to preordained targets and standards.
I dunno if that makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by percy on Mar 1, 2015 8:53:20 GMT 1
Dross? I genuinely hope the real you is a better you than the ****y messageboard you. Because I think that for my business a large proportion of graduates are worthless / of no use to me ? Well, I guess I'll have to confess to being that way in real life because that is my perception based on experience - sorry if it's upsetting, but I've no intention of employing anyone who I don't see value in. I'm sure if I turned up on match day to take Ryan woods' place you'd welcome me as an equal member of society ? To a league 2 football team I am dross - I must have missed the PC brigade banning the use of the word - apologies if it is just the word rather than the notion that has offended and I'll refrain in future.
|
|
|
Post by percy on Mar 1, 2015 9:12:01 GMT 1
I’m sure Percy is a lovely fella in the real world and I enjoy his thought provoking contributions on here, some I agree with and some I don’t. Having said that he hasn’t quashed the myth that people who work in the financial sector are all arrogant t0ssers. It is interesting though what both Matt and Percy have said about graduate candidates and since I started working in education I wonder if the problem goes deeper and actually starts in compulsory education. What I mean by this is schools dance to OFSTED’s tune. Teachers and support staff ‘teach’ to meet the targets set by Government via OFSTED. This means that we don’t teach free thinking in this country, but coach to preordained targets and standards. I dunno if that makes sense. It's true that you do not often get to the top in the city being a nice guy - sharks and corks I see many of, but very few Angels. Difficult also not to become arrogant when you are surrounded by sycophants. So yes, arrogant tossers is a fair evaluation. i think that you have a point on the style of education being results led rather than encouraging the journey to the answer and critical thinking. This though seems to get rectified in the good universities when the courses allow it e.g. Sciences, economics, maths, engineering - courses like law, politics, geography, history, languages you have to look at the person. Aside for the critical thinking / problem solving aspect, the really big differentiator is attitude; those prepared to learn and work hard, and those who expect everything on a plate and be told they are great for just showing up. I'm not sure if that is the fault of the education process or society; but it's genuinely something we see differ by university (and course) and not grades - sorry Lenny.
|
|