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Post by Matster on Oct 1, 2014 7:12:06 GMT 1
The choice offered at the next election is not good.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 8:09:18 GMT 1
, look at Downie, they would love a world filled with deep thinkers like him/her! I can confirm Downie is a woman. A full breasted buxom woman in fact, plump and rotund with thick lens glasses, a blue rinse and given to wearing blue dresses over thick denier tights.
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Post by mightyshrew on Oct 1, 2014 9:34:21 GMT 1
Why should governments fund youth clubs or anything else that might make kids more balanced human beings? they dont want a balanced engaged or well educated population because they want to keep people stupid enough to vote for them, look at Downie, they would love a world filled with deep thinkers like him/her! he swallows it hook line and sinker by the sounds of it but it's nice to see that plenty don't. What to do about it? Wecant vote them out because then we end up with a similar lot headed up by the wrong Milliband. This has been going on for years, neglectthe young so they aren't clued up enough to do anything about it and a minority votes in every government who serves it's electorate and b******s to everyone else. there will be more riots and the kids will be demonized again and the dumb barstewards who vote will swallow it all because that's what they are told to believe! Purely from a Safeguarding point of view, the young are not being neglected!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 20:44:14 GMT 1
Unclebobbi, I agree, I swallow everything hook line and sinker from the conservatives, I have no mind of my own........ But even you have to applaud Cameron and his speech about the NHS today!! unlike the opposition who forgot the biggest problem we have.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 21:03:36 GMT 1
What is the biggest problem we face Downie?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 22:13:27 GMT 1
In my opinion, balancing the books, to be able to afford NHS and education.
So out of interest, do people think that privatising the NHS would be that bad, what does the country currently pay to run it?
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Post by El Presidente on Oct 1, 2014 22:16:59 GMT 1
Unclebobbi, I agree, I swallow everything hook line and sinker from the conservatives, I have no mind of my own........ But even you have to applaud Cameron and his speech about the NHS today!! unlike the opposition who forgot the biggest problem we have. Not convinced on their plans for GP access. They have set 2020 as the go-live date for 7/52 access, yet it takes 5 yrs to train a doctor, and then a further 4 years to accrue enough professional knowledge to become a GP. More doctors are leaving GP practice than are being recruited coupled with the profession already being woefully under-resourced and over stretched. They are already playing catch up. Practically, to achieve their aim they will either have to reduce access to GPs during the normal week, and re-distribute the clinic hours to the weekend; or they will have to pay through the nose for GPs to work extra hours outside of their standard contracts. Simply robbing Peter to pay Paul. But that's not all. What's the point in having 7/52 GP access if the associated secondary care at hospitals is not there. Again, the NHS secondary care is already straining under the burden, and are usually skeleton staffed at the weekends. Those staffing levels will then need to be upped for the GPs to refer patients to, secondary clinics would have to be loaded to the weekends. How do we achieve that? Again, either more money, or migrate clinic access from the week, to the weekend. And then finally, staff retention at Primary and Secondary level will become more problematic as NHS staff like to have an appropriate work/life balance. A perfect storm for the private sector to step into, suck in staff from the NHS, cause the NHS to implode and heroically charge to the rescue with the very same staff who used to work in the NHS but who jumped for better working conditions and lifestyle. Word.
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Post by jamo on Oct 1, 2014 22:20:01 GMT 1
In my opinion, balancing the books, to be able to afford NHS and education. So out of interest, do people think that privatising the NHS would be that bad, what does the country currently pay to run it? Balancing the books ! We we print our own currency.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 22:20:49 GMT 1
Yes, I think privatising the health service is a bad thing. Not to say that it doesn't need radically transforming in some areas.
I see no argument says that we need to 'balance the books' - whatever that means - in order to protect spending on state health education.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 22:32:42 GMT 1
Yes Jamo, we print our own, but the more we print the weaker it becomes, so WS, a bad thing? How much does the NHS cost the uk each year? With a country of 66 million people
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Post by Matster on Oct 1, 2014 22:54:56 GMT 1
Have they achieved the number of Midwives that they promised at the last election?
5000 Doctors are not going to be achievable very easily as there is not the demand to enter the training at the moment, so they will need to incentivise this.
The promise of tax changes are 'within a Conservative Government', so that means in a coalition it probably will not happen. The details also seem to point out that it'll be more towards the end of the term too.
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Post by El Presidente on Oct 1, 2014 23:05:02 GMT 1
Yes Jamo, we print our own, but the more we print the weaker it becomes, so WS, a bad thing? How much does the NHS cost the uk each year? With a country of 66 million people Lets look at it another way... How much does misuse and abuse of the NHS cost each year? Perhaps we should be focussing on tackling this, and missed appointments, to reduce the strain on the budget.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 1, 2014 23:48:25 GMT 1
Idle cash balances don't chase goods and services. You can print as much of it - nowadays key stroke entries on a computer - as you like. All the predictions of much higher inflation as a result of QE were way off the mark.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 2, 2014 0:16:19 GMT 1
Yes, I think privatising the health service is a bad thing. Not to say that it doesn't need radically transforming in some areas. I see no argument says that we need to 'balance the books' - whatever that means - in order to protect spending on state health education. Balancing the books is not needed. My understanding of balancing the books is government expenditure is equal to tax revenue. That is slightly different from saying the source of government expenditure is tax revenues, as the balance could occur ex post with one off tax charges. But that balance is an endogenous variable - you don't effect only one variable by cutting government expenditure - because government expenditure is part of aggregate demand. If aggregate demand falls then tax revenues also fall. And government deficits are the non-government sector's net saving and so not a bad thing for people in the non-government sector - at least in principle. In fact the domestic private sector is in balance and the government deficit is about equal to the surplus of the rest of the world vis-a-vis the UK. The rest of the world surplus can carry on for as long as exporters need to sell stuff to the UK. Therefore, the government deficit can only really come down if the domestic private sector saves less/borrows more - with consequences for financial fragility that lead, ultimately, to a Minsky Moment
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Post by El Presidente on Oct 2, 2014 2:07:55 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 7:47:05 GMT 1
The biggest problem we face as individuals in maintaining a decent standard of living in the context of 21st century Western Europe.
If I understand Sean correctly a decent standard of living can be maintained by internal and external investment contributing to government expenditure. As I see the NHS, welfare state and youth clubs as all contributing to a decent standard of living this is important.
However with this investment come caveats. A more flexible workforce and less long term security, wages and inflation out of step and short term contracts based around ‘projects’.
So the biggest problem we face is whether we support such things as TTIP, or a more truly social democratic system that should, in theory, benefit the nation and not just the state. Or do we allow multi – nationals to run the NHS for the benefit of their shareholders and an elite few?
Another problem we face as individuals is that all the major parties including UKIP favour TTIP. The Greens don’t so really there is no alternative.
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Post by atcham jack on Oct 2, 2014 9:27:25 GMT 1
personally I would mothball plans to build HS2, replace Trident, until economy allows which will be 40+ years away.
I would like to see 5 more years of coalition, a combined tax/national insurance, An NHS national lottery to rid us of all NHS charges, rid us OF NICE who tell us what drugs we can afford, and further support for hospitals and clinical trials. with the poorest paying no tax, bankers bonuses curbed, we could all yet be in this together.
sorry if too coherent. cannot stand the thought of miliband or spamcam without Lib Dems, whose original policy of taking poorest out of taxation has to have been most sensible. bed tax must go though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 9:39:46 GMT 1
Fragmentation of the NHS is a bad thing. Referrals go missing, services that were provided are outsourced/privitised and control is lost, profit becomes a driving motive and there is no one to hold to account. The commissioning/tendering process is weighted against the public sector. The public sector is forced to compete against large organisations who have got access to large bid writing teams and expensive lawyers. They under price a contract they can and do walk away, they underprice a contract they can and often do hold the customer to ransom and demand an increase in mid contract payments. They are difficult to monitor and slow to investigate and respond. There is often a higher increase in staff turnover and a deskilling of any staff that are tupeed over/recruited. www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/04/nhs-watchdog-virgin-care-croydon-hospital
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Post by neilsalop on Oct 2, 2014 9:41:38 GMT 1
So out of interest, do people think that privatising the NHS would be that bad, what does the country currently pay to run it? Probably a damn site less than we would pay if it were privatised. Would you prefer to keep our current system or would you rather that we adopted something like the American system that sees people (who in most cases have had unfortunate things happen to them like losing a job, becoming ill, suffering a bereavement, etc and have been unable to keep up with their health insurance premiums) queueing up once a month in the dead of night, whatever the weather just to see a doctor, nurse, dentist, optician, midwife, etc. at the monthly* (if they're lucky it would be monthly) free clinic? I understand that you might be one of the few that can afford to have private healthcare (I get it through work and consider myself very fortunate to do so, as there is no way I could afford it otherwise. Also I am the only one covered, not my family). Would you rather everyone had to source health insurance, pay for it and continue paying for it for their whole life just to ensure that they can get decent health care. I'm assuming that you have kids, maybe grandchildren, should one of them fall ill and they lost their job and couldn't afford to pay or even forgot to set up or change a direct debit I'm sure you'd rather have the NHS to keep them alive and well without bankrupting them. No-one knows what is around the corner, but I would rather sleep well in the knowledge that if any member of my family was to fall ill there is the NHS to look after them. I've always maintained that the welfare state should be a safety net, not a hammock as some would use it as. There are maybe one or two percent of the population that see themselves as too good to work, these people deserve nothing. There is a far greater percentage of people that have fallen on hard times, but want to get back into gainful employment, but can't afford to due to the amount of money they'd need to earn to survive, these people need the government to give them the incentives to get back to work. Then there are the people that will do anything to make ends meet, these are the people that get jack all from the state, apart from the right to keep the first £10k that they earn tax free. Our welfare system isn't perfect, but I'm yet to find one that's better.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 11:20:14 GMT 1
So out of interest, do people think that privatising the NHS would be that bad, what does the country currently pay to run it? Probably a damn site less than we would pay if it were privatised. Would you prefer to keep our current system or would you rather that we adopted something like the American system that sees people (who in most cases have had unfortunate things happen to them like losing a job, becoming ill, suffering a bereavement, etc and have been unable to keep up with their health insurance premiums) queueing up once a month in the dead of night, whatever the weather just to see a doctor, nurse, dentist, optician, midwife, etc. at the monthly* (if they're lucky it would be monthly) free clinic? Our welfare system isn't perfect, but I'm yet to find one that's better. Neil, as a whole i tend to not disagree with you, but lets look at a few simple facts, at the moment there are huge resources placed into it, plenty of red tape, and utter waste. I ask myself how much money is wasted if a rebrand which happens to most NHS trusts go through ever couple of years, the wastage of time, and money. Our front line NHS staff cost less than the management structure above them, and that is pure and simply wrong, the money should be spent at the coal face, and there are lots of questions need to be answered, but lets look at a few facts first. In 2014: UK GDP will be £1,470 Billion Tax Receipts will be £648 billion Government spending will be £732 Billion The UK national debt will reach £1,272 Billion Two key observations: This year, like every other year for over a decade the government is spending more that it raises. 2014’s aspiration is £90 billion. Or, to put it another way, of every £10 that the government spends is borrows £1.50 The national debt is approaching the size of the entire economy, and represents twice what the government raises in taxation. So like any good house hold we need to bring that in order, and printing more as per Jamo's way is not realistic. It did not work when QE started and it wont work in the future Firstly STOP SPENDING MONEY YOU DON’T HAVE. Then START MAKING MORE MONEY. Finally PAY BACK WHAT YOU OWE. Now our biggest expenditure in a single item is the NHS £222billion on social protecion, that is about £8500 per household, but how many households actually spend there £8500, which i believe is spent by the minority.
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Post by jamo on Oct 2, 2014 12:22:06 GMT 1
In 2014: UK GDP will be £1,470 Billion Tax Receipts will be £648 billion Government spending will be £732 Billion The UK national debt will reach £1,272 Billion Two key observations: . So like any good house hold we need to bring that in order, and printing more as per Jamo's way is not realistic. It did not work when QE started and it wont work in the future Typical spin Downie, typical spin. 1) where on your list is the figure that equates to the tax revenues due in 2014 that are illegally denied The Exchequer by your friends in big business ? 2) I did not say that the answer was to print more money. I responded to your illogical statement of "needing to balance the books" which quite frankly makes no sense to a first world country that has sovereign control over its own currency.
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Post by neilsalop on Oct 2, 2014 13:14:25 GMT 1
Probably a damn site less than we would pay if it were privatised. Would you prefer to keep our current system or would you rather that we adopted something like the American system that sees people (who in most cases have had unfortunate things happen to them like losing a job, becoming ill, suffering a bereavement, etc and have been unable to keep up with their health insurance premiums) queueing up once a month in the dead of night, whatever the weather just to see a doctor, nurse, dentist, optician, midwife, etc. at the monthly* (if they're lucky it would be monthly) free clinic? Our welfare system isn't perfect, but I'm yet to find one that's better. Neil, as a whole i tend to not disagree with you, but lets look at a few simple facts, at the moment there are huge resources placed into it, plenty of red tape, and utter waste. I ask myself how much money is wasted if a rebrand which happens to most NHS trusts go through ever couple of years, the wastage of time, and money. Our front line NHS staff cost less than the management structure above them, and that is pure and simply wrong, the money should be spent at the coal face, and there are lots of questions need to be answered, but lets look at a few facts first. Now our biggest expenditure in a single item is the NHS £222billion on social protecion, that is about £8500 per household, but how many households actually spend there £8500, which i believe is spent by the minority. So you would be quite happy for the NHS to get rid of some layers management. So would we all, but unlike you we don't want to replace the costs with insurance company payments and shareholder dividends. As I said the system isn't perfect, but you're not showing me how breaking the NHS up into profit making parts and getting rid of the loss makers is going make anything any better. The biggest problem is that the NHS is used as a political entity, which it isn't, it may have been brought in by a Labour government which is why you and yours hate it so much, but do you really think that the Tory voters up and down country would stand by and watch it split up and sold off to the best connected bidder? If so you're more deluded than I thought. 95%+ of the people in this country have had to use the NHS at some stage of their lives, be that their birth, childhood immunizations, falling of bikes, all the way through to getting help at the end of their lives and this is all FREE at the point of contact, yes we are all paying for it, but I'd rather it was paid for by all and supplied to all, rather than payed for by a few and only available to those few. You stand in the Square in town on Saturday and ask Tory voters if they are prepared to give that all up to save a few quid a month on their PAYE and national insurance contributions, given the fact they (and their future generations) would have to spend many times what they would save on private cover that would use any means necessary to avoid paying out and leave them destitute in a heartbeat.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 13:19:16 GMT 1
You talk of rebrands Mr Downward, and you are right. 100%!
But tell me who is doing the rebranding? Doctors? Nurses? No of coarse not. It's governments. Each time someone new gets in it's all change.
Different ideology = different funding, different approach, different philosophy.
I've said before that the NHS must be taken out of governmental control somehow. It's too precious to let people with clear agendas use it as a political football or for political gain, labour or tory.
Policy and funding of the NHS must be set outside the political sphere.
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Post by neilsalop on Oct 2, 2014 13:39:16 GMT 1
Typical spin Downie, typical spin. Like your bloody lot never used spin. Two wrongs (or in this countrys' case three [or four if you includethe idiots at UKIP]) have never made a right and never will. Keep politics out of the NHS.
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Post by jamo on Oct 2, 2014 13:50:52 GMT 1
Typical spin Downie, typical spin. Like your bloody lot never used spin. Two wrongs (or in this countrys' case three [or four if you includethe idiots at UKIP]) have never made a right and never will. . Absolutely, And I would expect soemone to point it out when it happened
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 16:53:38 GMT 1
Typical spin Downie, typical spin. 1) where on your list is the figure that equates to the tax revenues due in 2014 that are illegally denied The Exchequer by your friends in big business ? 2) I did not say that the answer was to print more money. I responded to your illogical statement of "needing to balance the books" which quite frankly makes no sense to a first world country that has sovereign control over its own currency. And a typical answer which I expected, no real answer so deflect this onto what is not being collected and change the subject
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 17:01:58 GMT 1
You talk of rebrands Mr Downward, and you are right. 100%! But tell me who is doing the rebranding? Doctors? Nurses? No of coarse not. It's governments. Each time someone new gets in it's all change. Different ideology = different funding, different approach, different philosophy. I've said before that the NHS must be taken out of governmental control somehow. It's too precious to let people with clear agendas use it as a political football or for political gain, labour or tory. Policy and funding of the NHS must be set outside the political sphere. Queenie..... err sorry Pab, we are talking along the same lines, but if you take it out of government or political hands, is that not privatisation of a form.
Not sure if you saw Camerons speech, now the left will just use it as a point scoring exercise, just like the right did about Bell Ed forgetting the deficit, but thought he spoke well on the NHS. I get what people are saying, but think his intentions are fine, but its how it is being implemented.
Funny how in Wales, where they are governed by Westminster but have local control, which is mainly Labour, so the NHS is batted about like a ping pong ball, as labour will spend in the complete opposite manner meaning more wastage. It would be the same if it was vice versa.
How do we get the government to keep the NHS but lose overall control, its called privatisation
as for Health insurance, I can insure my whole family for less than a grand a year, which is quite a lot less than my tax bill, now if the disadvantaged could be underwritten with a first point of contact guaranteed, then why could it at least not be explored. BUPA are doing very well, and when a private institution gets it wrong, the tax payer does not fit the legal bill. How much did the NHS pay out last year in legal bills and compensation?
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Post by jamo on Oct 2, 2014 19:24:21 GMT 1
Typical spin Downie, typical spin. 1) where on your list is the figure that equates to the tax revenues due in 2014 that are illegally denied The Exchequer by your friends in big business ? 2) I did not say that the answer was to print more money. I responded to your illogical statement of "needing to balance the books" which quite frankly makes no sense to a first world country that has sovereign control over its own currency. And a typical answer which I expected, no real answer so deflect this onto what is not being collected and change the subject Where is the deflection ? A serious component of our so called national debt is the rampant tax evasion of hugely wealthy individuals and major companies. Don't forget it's your very self who is advising that we balance the books, if a major hurdle to achieving that is readily rectified by the government of the day - at no extra cost to 98% of the population - then why is it not being pursued ? Answers on a post card Downie. I have no interest in changing the subject in this debate, just waiting for your Central Office inspired response.
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Post by Matster on Oct 2, 2014 19:30:26 GMT 1
Typical spin Downie, typical spin. Like your bloody lot never used spin. Two wrongs (or in this countrys' case three [or four if you includethe idiots at UKIP]) have never made a right and never will. Keep politics out of the NHS. Ukip, that's the worrying thing. He never gives a straight answer on the ,NHS and their policy on privatisation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 19:31:59 GMT 1
oh thee pursuing it, starting with the but I cannot say what HMRC are doing about tax evasion as they wont publicise it, and I believe they are closing loopholes about tax avoidance.
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