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Post by neilsalop on Jul 18, 2014 11:54:57 GMT 1
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Post by neilsalop on Jul 18, 2014 12:03:11 GMT 1
230 Palestinians killed in the last ten days. Doesn't seem to shock anyone! In any war there are civilian casualties on both sides. Hamas are launching their missiles from populated areas and the Israelis are targeting the missile sites to protect their own people. If Hamas want to try to use their own people as human shields you can hardly blame the deaths entirely on Israel. FWIW I think that Israel are like a naughty child and are always pushing boundaries and until someone (the USA) clamps down on them they will continue doing it. Sending them the naughty step isn't going work.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 18, 2014 12:46:33 GMT 1
230 Palestinians killed in the last ten days. Doesn't seem to shock anyone! In any war there are civilian casualties on both sides. Hamas are launching their missiles from populated areas and the Israelis are targeting the missile sites to protect their own people. If Hamas want to try to use their own people as human shields you can hardly blame the deaths entirely on Israel. FWIW I think that Israel are like a naughty child and are always pushing boundaries and until someone (the USA) clamps down on them they will continue doing it. Sending them the naughty step isn't going work. Israelis are targeting the missile sites to protect their own people?!?! Eh? You really believe that? I'm gob smacked. Have you been keeping up with the news? The Israelis killed a few kids who happened to be playing on the beach just a couple of days ago. No Hamas. No rockets. Just kids playing on the beach. And an Israeli gun boat shelled them not once but twice as they were getting their aim. And this is not the only incident of Israeli armed forces using the sheer balance of power afforded to them to kill innocent Palestinians. As we have seen in the last few weeks there are parties on both sides of this conflict who are more than happy to commit murder. And that most certainly includes the Israeli armed services.
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Post by neilsalop on Jul 18, 2014 13:56:40 GMT 1
In any war there are civilian casualties on both sides. Hamas are launching their missiles from populated areas and the Israelis are targeting the missile sites to protect their own people. If Hamas want to try to use their own people as human shields you can hardly blame the deaths entirely on Israel. FWIW I think that Israel are like a naughty child and are always pushing boundaries and until someone (the USA) clamps down on them they will continue doing it. Sending them the naughty step isn't going work. Israelis are targeting the missile sites to protect their own people?!?! Eh? You really believe that? I'm gob smacked. Have you been keeping up with the news? The Israelis killed a few kids who happened to be playing on the beach just a couple of days ago. No Hamas. No rockets. Just kids playing on the beach. And an Israeli gun boat shelled them not once but twice as they were getting their aim. And this is not the only incident of Israeli armed forces using the sheer balance of power afforded to them to kill innocent Palestinians. As we have seen in the last few weeks there are parties on both sides of this conflict who are more than happy to commit murder. And that most certainly includes the Israeli armed services. My mistake. I meant that Israel are going to be able to claim that they were doing it to protect their own people. Hamas are in the wrong, Israel are in the wrong, two wrongs have never made a right.
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Post by El Presidente on Jul 18, 2014 21:21:44 GMT 1
80 children.
3 Infants.
If you want to see the aftermath, a quick google search will let you have unfettered access to uncensored photos of wreckage and bodies. Including that of a child no more than a year old, lying as if asleep in a recently cultivated field. The 'bounce' mark where he or she landed, just a few feet away. Might help add perspective to any subsequent comments.
This shoot-down was totally avoidable.
These deaths, completely unnecessary, and all, wholly innocent.
God bless the victims, god help the perpetrators.
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Post by mikeinsheff on Jul 18, 2014 23:13:08 GMT 1
Very sad. Met `The Undertaker` on a trip to Lokeren a few years back. (My best mate is a Toon season ticket holder of many years. )Think he`d missed one game in 40 years and that was when his mam passed away. #superfan R.I.P.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jul 19, 2014 7:28:54 GMT 1
The very fact they were going to New Zealand to watch a friendly shows a bit of loyalty!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 7:39:23 GMT 1
This shoot-down was totally avoidable. I don’t know much about SAM systems but I thought that they had some sort of IFF that would pick up an aircrafts transponder.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jul 19, 2014 8:35:41 GMT 1
This shoot-down was totally avoidable. I don’t know much about SAM systems but I thought that they had some sort of IFF that would pick up an aircrafts transponder. If you knew how to use it
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Post by atcham jack on Jul 19, 2014 8:49:12 GMT 1
Maniacs in charge of black boxes and crash site. If we add more sanctions against Russia, we will have no gas next winter. Russia have to be taught a lesson though
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 9:01:00 GMT 1
I don’t know much about SAM systems but I thought that they had some sort of IFF that would pick up an aircrafts transponder. If you knew how to use it I would imagine that they would have to use the radar system to lock on to the target, particularly when the target is at 33,000 feet. Interpreting the information displayed would take training, but the Ukrainians only stopped compulsory military service last year. There is no need to tell you of the consequences of that. www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-end-compulsory-military-service/24812181.htmlOf course that is not to say that other nation’s military advisors where not present....
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Post by El Presidente on Jul 19, 2014 9:01:55 GMT 1
This shoot-down was totally avoidable. I don’t know much about SAM systems but I thought that they had some sort of IFF that would pick up an aircrafts transponder. The missile system will simply 'see' a target. Without linking into a higher command control coordination and intelligence system, the operator will be firing 'blind' - the rebels can not link into such a system without Russian assistance, and I guess that the time taken to access Russian data to positively identify this aircraft as military or civilian, it would have been out of range. The rebels act with impunity, they are not burdened by any form of rules of engagement.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 9:23:35 GMT 1
There is no need to tell you of the consequences of that. I know little of such things, but it seems to me that the Ukrainian army is an utter shambles. Being done over time and again by a bunch of farmers with guns. A very simplistic and prob inaccurate way of looking at it I guess, but to me, I've always thought of Ukraine as one of those countries you really wouldn't want to mess with, but it seems the rebels are taking the p**s!
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jul 19, 2014 9:45:16 GMT 1
Those 'rebels' are Russian armed and Russian trained militia, in an area with a broadly pro Russian population.
Farmers with pitchforks they are not.
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Post by El Presidente on Jul 19, 2014 10:01:50 GMT 1
There is no need to tell you of the consequences of that. I know little of such things, but it seems to me that the Ukrainian army is an utter shambles. Being done over time and again by a bunch of farmers with guns. A very simplistic and prob inaccurate way of looking at it I guess, but to me, I've always thought of Ukraine as one of those countries you really wouldn't want to mess with, but it seems the rebels are taking the p**s! Evoultion of rebel weaponry: www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-separaatists-sophisticated-weaponry/25462211.htmlOverview from the Royal United Services Institute: www.rusi.org/ukraineA brief on the strategic and geo-political outcomes: www.janes.com/article/40702/analysis-a-turning-point-in-the-ukrainian-conflictAlthough the Ukrainian military certainly have superiority over the rebels, the extent to which they could have easily captured either Sloviansk or Kramatorsk without a rebel withdrawal is far less clear. Fighting in urban areas against a determined opposition has consistently proven among the most challenging and costly of military operations. Be it any of a myriad of costly battles in the Second World War, or more recently the Russian experience in Grozny and the US experience in Fallujah, the confines of urban warfare can effectively neutralise much of any numerical, technical, or materiel superiority an armed force may bring to bear. Moreover, although the Ukrainian military's track record in its 'anti-terrorist operation (ATO)' has improved - in part due to the greater role played by the Ukrainian National Guard: a driven volunteer militia recruited from among the maiden protest movement - there remains concern over its ability to effectively wage more complex operations. The general military aim of the pro-Russian rebels operating in eastern Ukraine at this point appears to draw Russia more overtly into the conflict, either through a forceful intervention by Moscow's armed forces or under the aegis of a peacekeeping mission of some kind. As such it is likely that part of the strategic calculus behind the rebels' withdrawal is the goal of concentrating their forces around Donetsk and Luhansk in order to create either a protracted siege of those cities, or to significantly increase the scale of fighting seen so far; either of which could result in heavy civilian casualties and prompt Russian intervention.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 10:14:24 GMT 1
It's not as if sophisticated equipment is required,a quick google search bring's up this: www.flightradar24.com/49.01,28.98/5 A lot of Aircraft are skirting the area with only a few Russian Airlines crossing it. It's possible the rebels were aware that Commercial Airlines were avoiding the area so believed it was a Ukrainian Airforce Plan- Military Aircraft do not show up-was this ones missing? Or have they brought it down in an attempt too frame Ukraine.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 10:49:20 GMT 1
Bunch of farmers with guns was a lazy metaphor on my part, but at least I understood your reply TBH!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 11:10:39 GMT 1
I don’t know much about SAM systems but I thought that they had some sort of IFF that would pick up an aircrafts transponder. The missile system will simply 'see' a target. Without linking into a higher command control coordination and intelligence system, the operator will be firing 'blind' - the rebels can not link into such a system without Russian assistance, and I guess that the time taken to access Russian data to positively identify this aircraft as military or civilian, it would have been out of range. The rebels act with impunity, they are not burdened by any form of rules of engagement. I understand that SAM systems are designed to work independent of an integrated air defence system. This is why I thought they would have some sort of IFF to prevent ‘blue on blue’.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 11:19:10 GMT 1
There is no need to tell you of the consequences of that. I know little of such things, but it seems to me that the Ukrainian army is an utter shambles. Being done over time and again by a bunch of farmers with guns. A very simplistic and prob inaccurate way of looking at it I guess, but to me, I've always thought of Ukraine as one of those countries you really wouldn't want to mess with, but it seems the rebels are taking the p**s! The consequence of compulsory military service is that a lot of the population will have some military training and service. Hence those who used the SAM system may have been trained in the Ukrainian military. This is also one reason why the separatists have been effective against the government forces. Of course they have had help, but the there is no need to train a force from scratch. I last handled a weapon 6 years ago, but I’d feel pretty confident in stripping, cleaning, reassembling and carrying out various drills if handed one tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 12:04:57 GMT 1
I don’t know much about SAM systems but I thought that they had some sort of IFF that would pick up an aircrafts transponder. The missile system will simply 'see' a target. Without linking into a higher command control coordination and intelligence system, the operator will be firing 'blind' - the rebels can not link into such a system without Russian assistance, and I guess that the time taken to access Russian data to positively identify this aircraft as military or civilian, it would have been out of range. The rebels act with impunity, they are not burdened by any form of rules of engagement. Just found this info on the probable system used. It has IFF, but as I understand it the outcome of an ‘interrogation’ depends on the type of question asked. press.ihs.com/press-release/aerospace-defense-terrorism/ihs-janes-analysis-capabilities-ukraines-missile-systems
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Post by El Presidente on Jul 19, 2014 13:15:17 GMT 1
The missile system will simply 'see' a target. Without linking into a higher command control coordination and intelligence system, the operator will be firing 'blind' - the rebels can not link into such a system without Russian assistance, and I guess that the time taken to access Russian data to positively identify this aircraft as military or civilian, it would have been out of range. The rebels act with impunity, they are not burdened by any form of rules of engagement. Just found this info on the probable system used. It has IFF, but as I understand it the outcome of an ‘interrogation’ depends on the type of question asked. press.ihs.com/press-release/aerospace-defense-terrorism/ihs-janes-analysis-capabilities-ukraines-missile-systemsIt can't just interrogate any aircraft - it's kind of complicated, but basically, there has to be access to known codes and integration with codes transmitted. See the us shoot down of an RAF tornado in gw2.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jul 19, 2014 13:57:57 GMT 1
Bunch of farmers with guns was a lazy metaphor on my part, but at least I understood your reply TBH! Our church has worked closely with a number of churches in that region for twenty odd years. Plenty of those separatists will be red army veterans who fought in Afghanistan etc while Ukraine was still ussr
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Post by champagneprince on Jul 19, 2014 16:24:11 GMT 1
There appears to be two facts to this:
1. Somebody shot a missile at an aircraft 2. The aircraft was there
Sheer stupidity for any airline to fly its aircraft over a known warzone with missile firing capability.
Surely this is basic 'risk management' on their part (not just Malaysian Airlines but all those who are ignoring the risk)
No excuses IMO. If the aircraft isn't there then it doesn't get shot down.
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