Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 12:49:46 GMT 1
Is anyone else keeping up with this? Unbelievable that the local council had an idea what was going on but just sat back and let it happen for the sake of community cohesion. You really do wonder how people think at times. How can encouraging segregation lead to community cohesion??? The cynical me wonders whether they sat back for fear of the 'R' word being thrown at them or they didnt want to lose the muslim vote. Reading some of the comments it still amazes me that so many people are still trying to be dismissive of it. I wonder if these people would be so dismissive if there was evidence of schools with primarily white pupils with white teachers/governors teaching children aggressive, sexist, homophobic, intolerant views which encourgaed segregation?
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Post by Catalyst Cartel on Jul 23, 2014 13:20:02 GMT 1
This country is a joke end of story no balls to stand up to extremism no balls, to stand up immigration policies, no balls to stand up to Europe. Weak and pathetic we should all be ashamed of ourselves for letting it get like this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 13:36:27 GMT 1
I'm genuinely none the wiser.
Two separate reports with two different conclusions. Niether report concluding that there was any evidence of extremism at the schools.
So I'm not entirely sure what people are getting up tight about?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 23, 2014 13:44:46 GMT 1
Is anyone else keeping up with this? Unbelievable that the local council had an idea what was going on but just sat back and let it happen for the sake of community cohesion. You really do wonder how people think at times. How can encouraging segregation lead to community cohesion??? The cynical me wonders whether they sat back for fear of the 'R' word being thrown at them or they didnt want to lose the muslim vote. Reading some of the comments it still amazes me that so many people are still trying to be dismissive of it. I wonder if these people would be so dismissive if there was evidence of schools with primarily white pupils with white teachers/governors teaching children aggressive, sexist, homophobic, intolerant views which encourgaed segregation? I think it's already been reported that BCC did indeed have concerns about being labelled racist and that was a factor in their failure to make any effort to stop what was happening. Its pretty depressing reading all-round to be honest. That we have individuals within the country trying to push that into our schools, that we had a local council who just sat back and let it happen for fear of being labelled racist or upsetting community cohesion, that we have teachers who have been bullied and some of the comments by parents of the children attending these schools aren't the best reading either... This whole episode will do more damage to community cohesion than if they would have moved to stamp this out as soon as they an idea as to what was going on. This will just cause more division, more suspicion and more opinion (rightly or wrongly) that integration in the UK just isn't working...
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 23, 2014 13:49:29 GMT 1
I'm genuinely none the wiser. Two separate reports with two different conclusions. Niether report concluding that there was any evidence of extremism at the schools. So I'm not entirely sure what people are getting up tight about? Really? Blimey...just from reading extracts in the Independent today... In his report, Mr Clarke concluded: “I found clear evidence that there are a number of people, associated with each other and in positions of influence in schools and governing bodies [in Birmingham] who espouse, endorse or fail to challenge extremist views.
“There has been coordinated, deliberate and sustained action, carried out by a number of associated individuals, to introduce an intolerant and aggressive Islamic ethos into a few schools in Birmingham.
“The effect has been to limit the life chances of the young people in their care and to render them more vulnerable to pernicious influences in the future.”Plenty more about the content reported too which doesn't make good reading.
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paolo
Shropshire County League
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Post by paolo on Jul 23, 2014 13:51:58 GMT 1
I know one of these schools where the headmistress has to talk to some father's behind a screen (because she's female) and some kids cannot study art or music or join in songs in assembly due to strict belief's.This was about a year ago and is not some right wing rumour.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 13:56:26 GMT 1
I'm genuinely none the wiser. Two separate reports with two different conclusions. Niether report concluding that there was any evidence of extremism at the schools. So I'm not entirely sure what people are getting up tight about? Below is taken from the Guardian site and lists some of the findings of the report, do you not think that is cause for concern? - There was a coordinated, deliberate and sustained action to introduce an intolerant and aggressive Islamic ethos into a few schools in Birmingham. - Birmingham city council was aware of the practices and behaviour that were outlined in the Trojan horse letter long before the letter surfaced. - The very clear evidence that young people are being encouraged to accept unquestioningly a particular hardline strand of Sunni Islam raises concerns about their vulnerability to radicalisation in the future - The council has not supported headteachers faced with aggressive and inappropriate behaviour by governors. - An all-male group discussion called the Park View Brotherhood, initiated by the acting principal of Park View school, contained messages that displayed explicit homophobia; highly offensive comments about British service personnel; a stated ambition to increase segregation in the school; disparagement of strands of Islam; scepticism about the truth of reports of the murder of Lee Rigby and the Boston bombings; and a constant undercurrent of anti-western, anti-US and anti-Israeli sentiment.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 23, 2014 14:14:32 GMT 1
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Post by SY3 on Jul 23, 2014 14:55:30 GMT 1
Is anyone else keeping up with this? Unbelievable that the local council had an idea what was going on but just sat back and let it happen for the sake of community cohesion. You really do wonder how people think at times. How can encouraging segregation lead to community cohesion??? The cynical me wonders whether they sat back for fear of the 'R' word being thrown at them or they didnt want to lose the muslim vote. Reading some of the comments it still amazes me that so many people are still trying to be dismissive of it. I wonder if these people would be so dismissive if there was evidence of schools with primarily white pupils with white teachers/governors teaching children aggressive, sexist, homophobic, intolerant views which encourgaed segregation? 'Proudsalopian' you have hit the nail on the head with that post. Matron is turning into Comical Ali.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 16:43:50 GMT 1
I'm genuinely none the wiser. Two separate reports with two different conclusions. Niether report concluding that there was any evidence of extremism at the schools. So I'm not entirely sure what people are getting up tight about? Really? Blimey...just from reading extracts in the Independent today... In his report, Mr Clarke concluded: “I found clear evidence that there are a number of people, associated with each other and in positions of influence in schools and governing bodies [in Birmingham] who espouse, endorse or fail to challenge extremist views.
“There has been coordinated, deliberate and sustained action, carried out by a number of associated individuals, to introduce an intolerant and aggressive Islamic ethos into a few schools in Birmingham.
“The effect has been to limit the life chances of the young people in their care and to render them more vulnerable to pernicious influences in the future.”Plenty more about the content reported too which doesn't make good reading. Sorry chaps I'm at work so haven't had lots of time to peruse the daily papers! My point remains that there are two reports, they contradict each other. Which do we believe (or want to believe?) My view is simple. If there is wrong doing let the guilty parties feel the full force of the law!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 16:49:42 GMT 1
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Post by mattmw on Jul 23, 2014 17:44:57 GMT 1
Think political motivations go a long way in this story. Undoubtedly there was a campaign by a small group of Muslims within the community to get into the schools and change their curriculum to suit their particular agenda
Alongside this was Gove's free school model designed to remove control from local authorities and transfer it to almost totally unaccountable governer bodies. People in education said it was a recipe for disaster but he pressed ahead regardless
This is the story that has got the most headlines but those in education tell of the wider issue of free schools being dominated by unaccountable governor groups influencing the school - there are examples of some odd curriculum choices out there!
Possibly more wide spread is the case of people with business interests moving into schools and awarding large contracts to their own companies with little scrutiny
It's no surprise the new education secretary has within a week of taking over introduced much tougher local scrutiny bodies and accountability into the free school process. Gove has a lot to answer for
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 21:37:33 GMT 1
Do go confusing them with facts Nick!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 8:08:53 GMT 1
Do go confusing them with facts Nick! Matron as you said there are two reports with two different findings. Judging by your view that there doesn't seem to be a lot to worry about, this would indicate you trust the Kershaw findings more, is that the case? If so, can I ask why you believe this ahead of the other report?
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Jul 24, 2014 12:19:55 GMT 1
Do go confusing them with facts Nick! Matron as you said there are two reports with two different findings. Judging by your view that there doesn't seem to be a lot to worry about, this would indicate you trust the Kershaw findings more, is that the case? If so, can I ask why you believe this ahead of the other report? Oh God, don't put him on the spot
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Post by jamo on Jul 24, 2014 12:43:37 GMT 1
I'm not that sure that the two reports add that much clarity to an already confused and murky situation.
Claim and counter claim, allegations and counter allegations from the different parties involved make the task of taking an informed opinion all the more difficult.
What this whole episode highlights for me is the completly inadequate governance of schools in this country, both from within schools themselves and from the accounatble local authorities.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 13:01:20 GMT 1
Matron as you said there are two reports with two different findings. Judging by your view that there doesn't seem to be a lot to worry about, this would indicate you trust the Kershaw findings more, is that the case? If so, can I ask why you believe this ahead of the other report? Just to clarify then PS, although my earlier posts are pretty clear I think. There are two reports. They contradict each other. As for the outcome of it all I'm none the wiser. Which report should I believe. To the cynic both report authors would have a vested interest. Either way, if someone is found to have broken the law I hope they full force of the judicial system. I don't know if there is anything to worry about because the conclusions seem to be rather different. Is that clear enough? If you can help me and tell me which of the reports is accurate, I should believe and why, them I'd probably find that useful. Cheers!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 15:36:02 GMT 1
Everyone has an agenda, particularly the government. Don’t like a report? Then redefine ‘extremism’ so it fits a particular narrative.
The BCC report does not deny that there were elements who wished to see a more traditional Islamic teaching and the report acknowledges that BCC failed to address this.
And here is the difference; one report suggests a systematic infiltration while the other suggests a small number moving between schools.
So does one report promote a more hysterical version while the other report presents a more realistic version?
I think also we need to remember that other faiths have extreme views that may infiltrate schools. I hope the government investigate those with as much rigour.
One final point. I went to school with a Jehovah Witness; they didn’t sit in assembly either.
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Post by champagneprince on Jul 24, 2014 20:06:31 GMT 1
There is one sure thing here. 'Something' happened that warranted an investigation, it's the strength of the findings on 'something' that people now seem to be confused by. Fair enough, it's thrown it all open to debate and is probably asking more questions than it's answering.
The stealth question hasn't been answered IMO. As Nicko points out the 'something' points to either:
a/ a systematic infiltration b/ a small number moving between schools.
If it's 'a' then it's obvious why the leaders felt the need to do it stealthily If it's 'b' then I would still question why they felt the need to move a small number between schools
Why was it hidden ? Why wasn't it all above board ? If people want their own faith schools then just apply for them in whatever the normal way is.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 6, 2022 10:59:32 GMT 1
A New York Times journalist has investigated the trojan horse letter alleging an extremist attempt to take over Birmingham schools and it's been made into a podcast series: www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/podcasts/trojan-horse-affair.htmlEpisode 1 - The origin of the story is the involvement of one Muslim man in East Birmingham who was shocked to understand the extent to which children from Pakistani families were failing in his local school. Because he was educated and a professional local Pakistani families approached him to get on the school board of governors. Long story short the school improved, other schools and the council went to him for the success story to be replicated elsewhere. Episode 2 - A primary school headteacher is embroiled in a dispute with four of the teacher assistants at her school. The matter is in the hands of solicitors and is set to go an employment tribunal. The Council makes it clear to the headteacher that the TAs should be reinstated and and it will not pay the primary school's legal costs if it presses ahead. The school's defence is that the TAs and parents from salafist Muslim families have conspired to undermine the headteacher and bring in strict Muslim practices. This seems an unhinged defence to the TAs' solicitors given everything else that has passed between the two sets of solicitors in the preliminary stage. Things look bad for the school. The council stands by its decision not to back the school. At this point the trojan horse letter emerges alleging that their is a conspiracy to takeover a number of schools and bring in hardline Islamic teaching. The letter gives greater emphasis to the case with the four TAs. It's impact is to rescue the headmistress and bring the Council behind the school. It is unclear why the Muslim man profiled in the first episode is named as the chief conspirator in the letter as he had been involved in appointing the headteacher in the first place. Episode 3 - Birmingham City Council conducted an investigation into the primary school and the issue of TAs and concluded that the headteacher is likely to have forged the resignation letters that the TAs are alleged to have written. The report recommends that the matter is referred to the police. The report is handed to the police. This report occurs just before the trojan letter came to light. Episode 4 - It is clear that Council leader is informed of the audit report. In a meeting between the council leader and the education secretary the letter was - in detail - debunked by the council and additionally that the schools mentioned in it are professionally run and the pupils high achieving and the police thought it was bogus. The education secretary went on to treat the letter as serious in his comments to parliament.
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 6, 2022 11:42:40 GMT 1
Didn't Gove actually say Britishness? Does that mean teaching pupils to be aloof? If his thinking was "so they are like me", then he can jog off. The last thing we need is any more Goves.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 13, 2022 10:42:50 GMT 1
Bit of a blast from the past but for those who are interested a new report on the "Trojan Horse" letter that was released yesterday. It touches on the content of both reports that were discussed above and the New York Times podcast (and more besides)... The Trojan Horse Affair: A Documentary Record
There is a fair bit to get through but worth it if you are interested...👍
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