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Post by jamo on Jun 9, 2014 19:05:18 GMT 1
What are people's thoughts ?
Predictably polarised views from both ends of the argument but somewhere in the middle a generation of children require a balanced and progressive education.
No doubt there are many failings that lead to the current investigation, chief among them absolutely poor, inadequate school governance, an agenda by some community leaders that has no place in a secular education programme and an Education Minister that has just lost the trust of those that he is supposed to lead and speak for.
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Post by champagneprince on Jun 9, 2014 19:42:35 GMT 1
Being in education I am not a big fan of Ofsted and how much 'power' they are allowed or how they go about their business. If I'm honest, as an auditing body I don't think it really works that well (for another thread at another time)
However, they are right to investigate this as unchallenged it could lead to an increasing amount of 'stealth' - if that's what it is.
Personally, I don't think religion has a part to play in schooling. I do agree that children should learn about different cultures and their beliefs but don't agree that their should be any faith schools or even any bias towards any religion. Outside of school fine, inside the school gates I see no place for it.
Going back to the '80's the non-Christian kids weren't allowed into assembly by their parents, they got put in a classroom somewhere. Jehovahs Witness kids, kids of atheist parents. I'm not sure that was healthy for them and always seemed strange to me, especially when in science we talked about evolution to the 'near point' of 'there is no God' and all children were expected to attend the lesson regardless of whether they believed in evolution or not !
But if we are going to have faith schools then I'm not sure why there was any need for a stealth approach and why the muslim people of Birmingham just didn't ask for another faith school ? It all seems a bit strange to me as to why there was an apparent need for 'stealth' ?
Extremism in any religion has no place as it can obviously be very damaging and it's as simple as that. Therefore any hint of it needs to be investigated and that should be welcomed by everybody (if they have nothing to hide)
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Post by mattmw on Jun 9, 2014 23:04:26 GMT 1
Have always been against the idea of academy's for this very reason. Any school can get a small influx of governors with a set agenda and have a big impact on a school. In Birmingham it seems to revolve around religion but in other areas businesses seem to have targeted schools and in others small groups of parents have tried to influence the intake of pupils into schools.
Know a few teachers in Brum and don't think there is anything sinister behind it, just a relatively small group of parents wanting the school to reflect their particular version of their religion. In many ways it doesn't differ much from other religious schools but does bring up the old argument of whether school or the home is the place for religious teaching
Local Authority lead schools have their faults but at least under that system there are checks and balances, and protections against a particular group having too much influence
Letting interest groups run schools through academies was always doomed to fail - Gove loves them as it undermines local government but don't forget it was old Mr Blair that launched them. Not one of his better ideas
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jun 9, 2014 23:18:43 GMT 1
To be honest I thought the response statements given by one the governors and especially from one of the teachers (deputy head? He was from Liverpool) were really good, heartfelt and believable. Left me with the distinct impression that there has been a bit of a witch-hunt and political hatchet job done.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 10, 2014 8:57:49 GMT 1
It does all seem a bit strange.
I think faith schools play a part but it shouldn't be a license for exclusivity.
I also think the issue here is parents entrusting their children to the state, who didn't appear competent in preventing their children being exposed to stuff.
I'm about to send my daughter to a church of England school, but I am not Church of England and have several significant theological differences, being a non conformist. So I'm interested in whether they'll teach the spectrum of Christian faith. But none of that has links to terrorist extremists so it's far from controversial, but it has parallels.
If you're a moderate Muslim in Brum attempting to keep your kids on the straight and narrow then you find school itself was at risk of being hijacked by extremists then that's a huge story.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 9:24:23 GMT 1
To be honest I thought the response statements given by one the governors and especially from one of the teachers (deputy head? He was from Liverpool) were really good, heartfelt and believable. Left me with the distinct impression that there has been a bit of a witch-hunt and political hatchet job done. Yeh saw this. My first reaction was, they don't appear to have been overrun by Muslim extremists! In honesty I don't know what the truth is, and frankly despite all the "revelation" yesterday, I feel none the wiser. The anti tory cynic in me says this has been blown up to give the government an opportunity to appear tough for anyone voting ukip. If there truly is a problem of schools being taken over or hijacked by ANYONE with ANY agenda, then they should be rooted out. Simple.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 10, 2014 9:41:17 GMT 1
I'd need someone to explain this to me in simple terms - and the weird Gove-May dispute thing that has overshadowed it. Perhaps that's been done somewhere but certainly not by the news that I've seen or heard.
From a position of relative ignorance on the Birmingham issue then, I'd prefer religion to be kept out of schools except to be taught objectively (ie the "essentials" of all major faiths). But we'd have to recognise that also goes against the traditional C of E primary schools that many of us were educated in. It would be discriminatory to say they're fine but others aren't. We don't need anything that separates and divides children.
But watching the news last night and hearing Gove demand that all schools teach traditional British values (whatever they might be - anyone know?), it did have a witch-hunt feel about it. Reminded me of all the enemy within, anti-Militant nonsense that infected us in the 1980s - exaggerate the threat of your "enemy" so that it's easier to push through your own radical agenda.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 10, 2014 10:38:41 GMT 1
But watching the news last night and hearing Gove demand that all schools teach traditional British values (whatever they might be - anyone know?)... These values will include the primacy of British civil and criminal law, religious tolerance and opposition to gender segregation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 11:39:57 GMT 1
Didn't Gove actually say Britishness? Does that mean teaching pupils to be aloof?
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Post by davycrockett on Jun 10, 2014 12:28:38 GMT 1
Always wondered why schools get a warning re inspection? Would be more representative if all inspections were unannounced but less intrusive just to see how the school was run when inspectors are not expected... A level playing field.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 12:48:36 GMT 1
Its easy to say its a witch-hunt or is targetting muslims but surely the relevant people have a duty to investigate these issues. I suspect the reason it has got so far up the food chain is because other people/groups have been scared to investigate for fear of a backlash.
But I do wonder whether its really about extremists taking over or about a clash of cultures with some people doing what is natural in their country/faith but is considered disrespectful in Britain. Ive never had any dealings with faith school's (of any religion), that question is purely based on some of the points made in the reports Ive read.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 12:52:22 GMT 1
But watching the news last night and hearing Gove demand that all schools teach traditional British values (whatever they might be - anyone know?)... These values will include the primacy of British civil and criminal law, religious tolerance and opposition to gender segregation. Are there not all girl / boy schools in this country. Are all Brits religiously tolerant.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 10, 2014 12:55:44 GMT 1
But if we are going to have faith schools then I'm not sure why there was any need for a stealth approach and why the muslim people of Birmingham just didn't ask for another faith school ? It all seems a bit strange to me as to why there was an apparent need for 'stealth' ? Do you mean 'stealth' as in the methods to be used by someone if this Trojan Horse letter were to be true? I guess because the people of Birmingham didn't wish for another faith school. However, those behind such a plot would still wish to "get to" those children who were attending non-faith schools. As in what might be happening in these schools is the very thing parents wished to avoid by not sending their children to a faith school but others have other ideas. I'm just a bit puzzled why are certain things banned (no matter how trivial) because they are deem un-Islamic in a non-faith school. I don't get that. Anyhows, if there is even a hint of segregation, in that boys and girls are treated differently, then that in itself should mean these schools need to be investigated and monitored (and if needs be changes made to the way they are run). Or indeed if those of another religion are treated differently from the Muslims who attend the school (I read somewhere about a school trip some place where non-Muslims were barred from attending). Small matters to some maybe but you worry it's just the thin end of the wedge.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 10, 2014 13:06:30 GMT 1
These values will include the primacy of British civil and criminal law, religious tolerance and opposition to gender segregation. Are there not all girl / boy schools in this country. Are all Brits religiously tolerant. A complete irrelevance as this is a mixed school. And no, not all Brits are tolerant to religion but that certainly does not mean it can not be seen as a traditional British value. Not all Brits are polite either. Some aren't good sports either. Some might have difficultly having a laugh at themselves too. No one would be stupid to suggest that they are inherent in us all. But despite all that, it doesn't mean they are not deemed traditional British values.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 10, 2014 14:04:19 GMT 1
Are there not all girl / boy schools in this country. Are all Brits religiously tolerant. A complete irrelevance as this is a mixed school. And no, not all Brits are tolerant to religion but that certainly does not mean it can not be seen as a traditional British value. Not all Brits are polite either. Some aren't good sports either. Some might have difficultly having a laugh at themselves too. No one would be stupid to suggest that they are inherent in us all. But despite all that, it doesn't mean they are not deemed traditional British values. I was a little in asking what British values are. Here's David Cameron's contribution: "I would say freedom, tolerance, respect for the rule of law, belief in personal and social responsibility and respect for British institutions - those are the sorts of things that I would hope would be inculcated into the curriculum in any school in Britain whether it was a private school, state school, faith-based school, free school, academy or anything else." Nothing about motherhood and apple pie surprisingly ... My point is there wouldn't be many countries that didn't say something very similar. What's uniquely British about any of this? We might think some countries fall short in some areas and perhaps they might say the same about us. In other words, it's entirely subjective and surely education should strive to be as objective as possible. I firmly believe there are certain values that I would hope all British children could acquire. I just don't believe they're especially "British" values and I don't think it helps the current argument to have politicians banging on about that. By the way, I'm entirely in sympathy with the values you referred to in your reply to me above. But they also demonstrate one of the problems I was alluding to. If you oppose gender segregation will you, for example, force single sex schools to be mixed (do they have girls at Eton? Don't know) Or are we going to differentiate between our traditional segregation and "theirs"? I think there is a difference but can understand that others might not. Religious tolerance? Well, yes. So what about C of E schools? I'm sure they're generally very tolerant environments for children of other faiths but again, the perception of some people will differ. Unless we're going to say this is a Christian country and so Christianity is treated differently to other religions (which would make outrageous hypocrites of most of us), then we're in danger of stirring up a real hornet's nest here. [The obvious (to me) answer is to keep all faiths outside the school gate and teach comparative religion in a secular environment. That's what I call tolerance. ]
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 14:21:05 GMT 1
British values. Fixing steel spikes on floors and ledges to stop the poor and homeless having somewhere dry to sleep at night.
I'm so proud!
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 10, 2014 15:19:55 GMT 1
A complete irrelevance as this is a mixed school. And no, not all Brits are tolerant to religion but that certainly does not mean it can not be seen as a traditional British value. Not all Brits are polite either. Some aren't good sports either. Some might have difficultly having a laugh at themselves too. No one would be stupid to suggest that they are inherent in us all. But despite all that, it doesn't mean they are not deemed traditional British values. I was a little in asking what British values are. Here's David Cameron's contribution: "I would say freedom, tolerance, respect for the rule of law, belief in personal and social responsibility and respect for British institutions - those are the sorts of things that I would hope would be inculcated into the curriculum in any school in Britain whether it was a private school, state school, faith-based school, free school, academy or anything else." Nothing about motherhood and apple pie surprisingly ... My point is there wouldn't be many countries that didn't say something very similar. What's uniquely British about any of this? We might think some countries fall short in some areas and perhaps they might say the same about us. In other words, it's entirely subjective and surely education should strive to be as objective as possible. I firmly believe there are certain values that I would hope all British children could acquire. I just don't believe they're especially "British" values and I don't think it helps the current argument to have politicians banging on about that. By the way, I'm entirely in sympathy with the values you referred to in your reply to me above. But they also demonstrate one of the problems I was alluding to. If you oppose gender segregation will you, for example, force single sex schools to be mixed (do they have girls at Eton? Don't know) Or are we going to differentiate between our traditional segregation and "theirs"? I think there is a difference but can understand that others might not. Religious tolerance? Well, yes. So what about C of E schools? I'm sure they're generally very tolerant environments for children of other faiths but again, the perception of some people will differ. Unless we're going to say this is a Christian country and so Christianity is treated differently to other religions (which would make outrageous hypocrites of most of us), then we're in danger of stirring up a real hornet's nest here. [The obvious (to me) answer is to keep all faiths outside the school gate and teach comparative religion in a secular environment. That's what I call tolerance. ] Well I don't think anyone is suggesting these values are inherently British are they? No one said they are unique to the British? Or have I missed something? They are nevertheless something which I believe the British adhere to and therefore I don't think it's off to refer to them as British values. Sure many people from around the globe would characterise them as their values too. Regarding your last point then I agree but I really don't know enough about how schools go about their business to be honest. I mean I am reading so much about how religion is playing a part but as I understand it these are all non-faith schools. So not sure how it works to be honest.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 15:40:54 GMT 1
They are nevertheless something which I believe the British adhere to and therefore I don't think it's off to refer to them as British values. Sure many people from around the globe would characterise them as their values As you have said already, not all brits adhere to them therefore theyre values that SOME brits adhere to, and some don't. They are also values that many other countries adhere to, so british values are much the same as the values as many other countries. So the much vaunted phrase british values is a croc, and one that's going to be bandied about left right and centre after ukips recent triumph!
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Post by venceremos on Jun 10, 2014 15:53:16 GMT 1
I was a little in asking what British values are. Here's David Cameron's contribution: "I would say freedom, tolerance, respect for the rule of law, belief in personal and social responsibility and respect for British institutions - those are the sorts of things that I would hope would be inculcated into the curriculum in any school in Britain whether it was a private school, state school, faith-based school, free school, academy or anything else." Nothing about motherhood and apple pie surprisingly ... My point is there wouldn't be many countries that didn't say something very similar. What's uniquely British about any of this? We might think some countries fall short in some areas and perhaps they might say the same about us. In other words, it's entirely subjective and surely education should strive to be as objective as possible. I firmly believe there are certain values that I would hope all British children could acquire. I just don't believe they're especially "British" values and I don't think it helps the current argument to have politicians banging on about that. By the way, I'm entirely in sympathy with the values you referred to in your reply to me above. But they also demonstrate one of the problems I was alluding to. If you oppose gender segregation will you, for example, force single sex schools to be mixed (do they have girls at Eton? Don't know) Or are we going to differentiate between our traditional segregation and "theirs"? I think there is a difference but can understand that others might not. Religious tolerance? Well, yes. So what about C of E schools? I'm sure they're generally very tolerant environments for children of other faiths but again, the perception of some people will differ. Unless we're going to say this is a Christian country and so Christianity is treated differently to other religions (which would make outrageous hypocrites of most of us), then we're in danger of stirring up a real hornet's nest here. [The obvious (to me) answer is to keep all faiths outside the school gate and teach comparative religion in a secular environment. That's what I call tolerance. ] Well I don't think anyone is suggesting these values are inherently British are they? No one said they are unique to the British? Or have I missed something? They are nevertheless something which I believe the British adhere to and therefore I don't think it's off to refer to them as British values. Sure many people from around the globe would characterise them as their values too. Agreed. So why not just say "civic values" or something similar then? Why bring in the "British" bit at all? Tories unnecessarily playing the patriotism/nationalism card, in my opinion, and risking making a difficult situation much worse by doing so.
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 10, 2014 16:05:01 GMT 1
Surely values are pretty much the same throughout the world, be they British values or Croatian values or Thai values and I'm certain that Christian values aren't wildly different from Muslim or Hindu values. I do find that some other religions are a century or two behind the Christians in a number of points, but that is due to the west becoming more ''civilized'' earlier. Give it a few generations and they will have caught us up. In the mean time if these religions want to practice here they must be more accepting of the values that we generally live by.
We will mostly all agree that a fair amount of tolerance, understanding and accepting of our differences is required to live in a civilized society. I'm not saying that we are all tolerant all of the time, but there are laws in place to ensure that we don't go too far when we do get to the end of our tether. These laws have developed over time in the most part to the benefit of the many over the few and these laws are the ones we should all live within.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 10, 2014 17:45:23 GMT 1
They are nevertheless something which I believe the British adhere to and therefore I don't think it's off to refer to them as British values. Sure many people from around the globe would characterise them as their values As you have said already, not all brits adhere to them therefore theyre values that SOME brits adhere to, and some don't. They are also values that many other countries adhere to, so british values are much the same as the values as many other countries. So the much vaunted phrase british values is a croc, and one that's going to be bandied about left right and centre after ukips recent triumph! You go ahead and nick-pick all you like our kid. Fill yer boots. But for me they are British values and values that the vast majority of Brits adhere to. And by all means if some chap from across the globe, wherever they may be, were to call them their own values then good for them. No one is suggesting these values are unique to those from Britain. But as I'm from those shores I'm happy to say British values when discussing me and my ethnic group (save for the odd rum'un). Maybe it's a little bit more apparent to me because I am reminded of such things each and every day. Because despite how close we are, we and the Germans do differ on certain things. Something as simple as queuing for example.
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Post by champagneprince on Jun 10, 2014 17:58:49 GMT 1
Always wondered why schools get a warning re inspection? Would be more representative if all inspections were unannounced but less intrusive just to see how the school was run when inspectors are not expected... A level playing field.
With any audit, in any organisation, if an announced visit is deemed to be poor then what would it be like normally ? Businesses can be ruined by unannounced audits because the normal standard can be affected by a myriad of 'one off' problems, and that's why auditors like to give notice.
If you give an organisation some time to get their act together and it hasn't, then you can be assured that that is their normal standard. If you turn up unannounced then the poor standard you discover might be a complete one-off and as an auditor you are still in the dark as to whether this is the normal standard or not. Perhaps resulting in a costly and time consuming period for everyone involved. I'd be gutted if I normally had a great standard and then a one off cock up lost me business because of an unannounced audit.
With regards to OFSTED I would question even their announced audit procedure, let alone an unannounced one. I do approximately 1000 hours teaching per annum in my college role with an OFSTED inspection every 4 years, that's 4000 hours teaching. I could be the worlds greatest teacher/trainer/tutor/lecturer but on the day of the OFSTED inspection I make a cock-up (it happens, I am a human being) they can then determine that I am rubbish based on a 1 hour inspection !
Bonkers ! They have way, WAY too much power and influence.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 18:00:04 GMT 1
No one is suggesting these values are unique to those from Britain. Something as simple as queuing for example. Stutty, you call it nit picking, to me it's an important point that some are trying to make some kind of political point out of. If these values arnt unique to britain, how can we claim they are "british" values? Your last point? Well I'll give you that. I've experienced shopping in a few other places around the world and well, there's no place like home So yes, in my experience, behaving in a civilised fashion whilst doing your weekly shop is a British value
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Post by champagneprince on Jun 10, 2014 18:29:02 GMT 1
British values are values that Britain holds dear. It doesn't mean that Britain has any patented right to them or that they we have any to claim to them whatsoever.
They are just things we hold dear as a country, regardless of where they come from.
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Post by atcham jack on Jun 10, 2014 18:32:02 GMT 1
Bradford schools to be investigated.----deputy mayor of london orders 3 water canons for met. what next pepper grenades. british values for me used to be mr plod the policeman in noddy and ernest the policeman in tales from toytown. no room now for larry the lamb, denis the dachsund oh and mr Growser!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 18:48:26 GMT 1
This has been rumbling on for months, Gove and May have a spat and it goes national.
Now we have a narrative that is driven by politicains and certain sections of the media. A narrative lost in accusation and counter accusation. We have a school rated outstanding by OFSTED last year that is now in special measures. I thought the head teacher was going to cry in an interview the other day.
Maybe conservative Muslims are trying to infiltrate and influence a selection of state schools. Does this make it ‘extremism’?
The only thing we can really take from this is what education professionals I talk to already know. OFSTED is not fit for purpose and driven by political agendas. Nice values.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 10, 2014 18:50:08 GMT 1
Bradford schools to be investigated.----deputy mayor of london orders 3 water canons for met. what next pepper grenades. british values for me used to be mr plod the policeman in noddy and ernest the policeman in tales from toytown. no room now for larry the lamb, denis the dachsund oh and mr Growser! That's a very good point aj. Where does firing water cannons at British citizens sit in the realms of British values? Oh yes, that'll be Cameron's "respect for the rule of law" and for "British institutions". Laughable if it weren't so serious. Any dictator could say the same and hide behind the convenient "values" banner.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 18:59:06 GMT 1
British values are values that Britain holds dear. It doesn't mean that Britain has any patented right to them or that they we have any to claim to them whatsoever.
They are just things we hold dear as a country, regardless of where they come from. Possibly, but the use of the phrase british values is a cliche being trumped out by politicians trying to appease ukip voters and those on the right of the tory party ahead of the general election. It is a hazy phrase that means a lot, but also, imo, means nothing. It's like britishness, it's a pile of rot that's being hijacked to meet a particular agenda. British values are just common, everyday values, shared by most countries in the world. Attaching british onto them serves no purpose other than to create a headline, or buzz word!
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 10, 2014 18:59:17 GMT 1
No one is suggesting these values are unique to those from Britain. Something as simple as queuing for example. Stutty, you call it nit picking, to me it's an important point that some are trying to make some kind of political point out of. If these values arnt unique to britain, how can we claim they are "british" values? Your last point? Well I'll give you that. I've experienced shopping in a few other places around the world and well, there's no place like home So yes, in my experience, behaving in a civilised fashion whilst doing your weekly shop is a British value Well you could argue that they are values that are held by the British and therefore are British values. Just because they are held by others is by the by for me. So perhaps more a question of semantics than nit-picking...
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 23, 2014 8:34:08 GMT 1
Is anyone else keeping up with this? Unbelievable that the local council had an idea what was going on but just sat back and let it happen for the sake of community cohesion. You really do wonder how people think at times.
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