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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 27, 2013 0:49:00 GMT 1
I think precedent is not in McAllister's favour if his two feet were off the ground. Anyone seen a replay yet? 1 minute 20 and then Basically, it does not matter if there is another player in sight. Once two feet are off the ground, you are screwed. Because how did McAllister know there was not another player coming in from the side? Once he was lunging, he had no control. And yes, all players DO know this! www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2092434/Two-footed-challenges-red-cards.htmlSo if two feet were off the ground, then it's over to Summerfield for a couple of weeks. I don't have SSN so have to sit it out for the highlights on the web.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 27, 2013 1:10:16 GMT 1
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Post by stfcfan87 on Feb 27, 2013 1:19:54 GMT 1
Sorry Throb I disagree
I understand why the rule is as it is and why it is applied. I believe that the rule isn't actually whether he used two feet or not, it's whether the challenge is reckless and whether the person making it has control over his feet or not. The two footed challenge is basically a strong example of a reckless out of control challenge because you can't really have control when you're in the air
However, I disagree because both of these incidents weren't really similar to what I saw tonight from block 3. - For starters, in both of these challenges Kompany is close to the opponent - McAllister quick clearly got to the ball well before his opponent - In both of these challengers Kompany made the challenge from in front of the opponent and would naturally keep continuing to come forward onto and through the opponent whether he got the ball or not - McAllister's challenge to me was much earlier and the opponent wasn't even there when the challenge was made and could avoid McAllister. Furthermore I thought McAllister came from the side rather than head on. - In both of these occasions Kompany gets the ball a fraction before the opponent, but his momentum takes him into them. McAllister got there first and the opponent even had chance to avoid the challenge - In both of these tackles while Kompany wins the ball, he has no control over where it goes after. In my opinion McAllister actually made a pass to Jacobson. He had control over his feet and the ball! - Finally in both of Kompany's challenges his opponent had control over the ball but in McAllister's it seemed to be a loose ball
I actually thought it was more of an interception than a tackle.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Feb 27, 2013 1:21:33 GMT 1
Yep that video pretty much confirms my point of view
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Post by mrbunny on Feb 27, 2013 1:22:41 GMT 1
You are asking for trouble lunging in like that. Like the lad at Tranmere there was no need to make the ref make a decision.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 27, 2013 1:25:21 GMT 1
I understand why the rule is as it is and why it is applied. I believe that the rule isn't actually whether he used two feet or not, it's whether the challenge is reckless and whether the person making it has control over his feet or not. The two footed challenge is basically a strong example of a reckless out of control challenge because you can't really have control when you're in the air " Referees are to be ordered to punish all two-footed challenges with red cards in a hardline move to clear up confusion over dangerous tackles. An imminent instruction from referees’ chief Mike Riley will apply whether or not there is contact or injury to an opponent — and even if the ball is won first." So basically two feet off the ground = red card.
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Post by MidWalesShrew on Feb 27, 2013 1:29:54 GMT 1
Still do not agree.... .... you see players like Gerrard getting away with these lunges all the time.
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Post by almightybob on Feb 27, 2013 1:52:02 GMT 1
It wasn't a challenge, the doncaster lad ran in and over his leg after Mac comitted himslef and fell over his leg after the ball had gone. He wasn't in control of the ball whatsoever as he didn't have posession of it. How can you challenge someone for a ball they dont posess? If he had the ball and mac had then gone in like that, he should be done for assault , let alone a red card. But he didn't, it looks quite dramatic in real time but if you pause your way through the clip, it's easy to see there is no decision to make.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Feb 27, 2013 1:55:39 GMT 1
It wasn't a challenge, the doncaster lad ran in and over his leg after Mac comitted himslef and fell over his leg after the ball had gone. He wasn't in control of the ball whatsoever as he didn't have posession of it. How can you challenge someone for a ball they dont posess? If he had the ball and mac had then gone in like that, he should be done for assault , let alone a red card. But he didn't, it looks quite dramatic in real time but if you pause your way through the clip, it's easy to see there is no decision to make. Yes, damn the ref for not being Hiro Nakamura and pausing his way through real time to not have to make a decision
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Post by almightybob on Feb 27, 2013 2:05:23 GMT 1
It wasn't a challenge, the doncaster lad ran in and over his leg after Mac comitted himslef and fell over his leg after the ball had gone. He wasn't in control of the ball whatsoever as he didn't have posession of it. How can you challenge someone for a ball they dont posess? If he had the ball and mac had then gone in like that, he should be done for assault , let alone a red card. But he didn't, it looks quite dramatic in real time but if you pause your way through the clip, it's easy to see there is no decision to make. Yes, damn the ref for not being Hiro Nakamura and pausing his way through real time to not have to make a decision quite! He doesn't need to be super human though, I am near enough sub human and i could tell from 30 odd yards at the time! At the time i felt cheated, the heat of the moment and all that, and part of me wanted to join the baying mob that surrounded the tunnel. but there were far too many people in the way and i was too far away but I had a bit of self control and instead i whinged to everyone i have seen since, including my wife, the kids and the cat. But now, with a couple of hours between me and the game, i can see it's a simple mistake and i hope to see it rectified and overturned
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Post by stfcfan87 on Feb 27, 2013 2:54:20 GMT 1
I understand why the rule is as it is and why it is applied. I believe that the rule isn't actually whether he used two feet or not, it's whether the challenge is reckless and whether the person making it has control over his feet or not. The two footed challenge is basically a strong example of a reckless out of control challenge because you can't really have control when you're in the air " Referees are to be ordered to punish all two-footed challenges with red cards in a hardline move to clear up confusion over dangerous tackles. An imminent instruction from referees’ chief Mike Riley will apply whether or not there is contact or injury to an opponent — and even if the ball is won first." So basically two feet off the ground = red card.
I understand the point you make about two footed challenges, but the reason they have been typically picked up and deemed as automatic sendings off is because if you go in two footed with both foot off the floor then you aren't in control of your body and can hurt an opponent - by the way it's not just two footed tackles in this blanket.
And these articles: www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2092434/Two-footed-challenges-red-cards.html www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2096239/Referees-ordered-clamp-dangerous-footed-tackles.html
Back you up. (sorry about them being dailyfail articles mind but they were the ones that came up on google)
But in my view at the time, and in subsequent viewings is as I posted earlier - this was not your typical two footed tackle that this debate was about - Here's another article: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19707057" Effectively there are four types of challenge - firstly a correct tackle, where the player fairly wins the ball and there is no impact on their opponent, the vast majority of challenges." And in my view this is the best most apt description of McAllister's challenge
I don't see how it can be a dangerous out of control challenge when: a. he got there first b. he got there well before his opponent was near him, so much so that the opponent was able to totally avoid the challenge and the only impact if any was the opponent tripping over McAllister's leg - not his boot, but his leg c. he was in control, made the challenge and instantly passed it on to a team mate.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Feb 27, 2013 5:36:29 GMT 1
Having watched it a few times I think I'm starting to agree with you - obviously he cleanly won the ball, he was always going to get there first, I don't think it was uncontrolled and it was actually not really two-footed as McAllister's left leg gets kind of tucked in as he stretches his right leg to the ball. The Donny player arrives so much later that he basically tumbles over Macca's prone arse. If I were a reviewing panel I'd probably rescind it (though I'd be surprised if they do). That said, I did think it looked bad on first viewing - the way he threw his arms and left the ground did make it look like an uncontrolled lunge, so I can see why the ref gave the red.
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Post by Valerioch on Feb 27, 2013 8:43:06 GMT 1
It was a brilliant tackle
Seriously will start questioning things if we don't appeal and that doesn't get over turned
And you can't question bias because I didn't think the Tranmere lad deserved a red. Footballers need to man up and get stuck in, this pathetic rolling and diving and general pansy like behaviour from all is beyond boring
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2013 8:59:19 GMT 1
I fail to see the difference between this kind of tackle and an overhead kick. Invariably with the latter both feet are off the ground and not really controlled. Whenever these are deemed to be dangerous they rarely even receive a booking.
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Post by shrew54 on Feb 27, 2013 10:16:47 GMT 1
Didn't think it was even a foul at the time and the video confirms it for me.
The Doncaster player was nowhere near the ball when Macca pushed it left. The referee must have seen he never touched him!
If he had tackled from in front he would have gone through and hit him, but that is not dangerous to me, if it was mis-timed and a second or two later I could accept a red card offence.
According to GT's post-match comments they will be appealing,and in my humble opinion it should be overturned. I won't be shocked if they back the referee up though!!
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Post by ssshrew on Feb 27, 2013 10:23:20 GMT 1
Another difference with the Tranmere sending is that the ref there consulted the linesman before making a decision as he was nearer the event. I'm in the East Stand and don't know whether the lino last night was on the spot or not but if he was, should he have been consulted?
I thought the ref was not one of the best we have had. Nothing given for fouls by their No.5 on Eades very early on in the first half and nothing given for the foul on Marvin near the end - bizarre. I can stomach red cards even if they may or may not be correct provided there is consistency by refs throughout the match. Last night there wasn't.
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Post by Dancin on Feb 27, 2013 10:24:45 GMT 1
There should be a warning put in front of that video! "Warning - only a ball suffered during the filming of this match!"
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Post by Slackbladder on Feb 27, 2013 12:26:11 GMT 1
The ref was reaching for his back pocket as soon as it happened. He had clearly decided that he needed no consultation with anyone or need to consider the pros and cons. To be fair he did appear to have a good view of the incident. Still think he got it wrong though.
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Post by franthetownfan on Feb 27, 2013 12:33:49 GMT 1
Two footed in the air, sent off for dangerous play rather than the foul! Looked off from the video. Funny it seems every town fan thinks its harsh and every rovers fan thinks it was off. Looking at it if he would have contacted that definitely would have been off. I don't know, is there a law on contact?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2013 12:39:54 GMT 1
Two footed in the air, sent off for dangerous play rather than the foul! Looked off from the video. Funny it seems every town fan thinks its harsh and every rovers fan thinks it was off. Looking at it if he would have contacted that definitely would have been off. I don't know, is there a law on contact? Had it been a tackle, there would be no way we could argue whatsoever and he probably would have deserved a longer ban than three games. But he is making a tackle. No different to an overhead kick where both feet are off the ground and high - it is playing the ball. The Donny player fell over McAllister long after the ball had gone. Very harsh decision and I would be surprised if it wasn't rescinded.
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Post by Chic on Feb 27, 2013 12:52:00 GMT 1
Looking at SSN Paul Keegan (who wasn't even tackled) helped the ref make his mind up.. I hate to see that!
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Post by mrbunny on Feb 27, 2013 12:55:18 GMT 1
I doubt it will be rescinded, no faith in the numpties in charge of the game these days.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2013 12:55:54 GMT 1
I have looked at it in stages.
McAllister leaves the ground with two feet, no arguments.
He makes contact with the ball with studs showing on one boot, the other foot tucking behind his body and the Doncaster player a few feet away.
By the time the Doncaster player makes contact, the ball is half way to our full back, McAllister is lying on the deck and the Donny player goes over his backside.
As I have said, if the Donny player had been going for the ball at exactly the same time and McAllister had done the same, red card all day long.
The fact McAllister is passing the ball out wide and then the Donny player falls over him makes it a ludicrous decision.
If that is a red card, we need to outlaw bicycle kicks as both feet are off the floor!!
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Shrewsfan1985
The Loggerheads
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My first team is..: Shrewsbury
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Post by Shrewsfan1985 on Feb 27, 2013 13:29:48 GMT 1
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Post by horse01 on Feb 27, 2013 13:35:45 GMT 1
If I knew how to put photos on here on my iPad, I have taken about 4 stills in stages of the tackle!!
there is no dispute that McAllister leaves the ground with both feet.
However, to suggest it is a two footed challenge is way wide of the mark. One of his feet is almost tucked underneath him and he only ever reaches for the ball with one foot- his right.
He makes clean contact with ball whilst the Donny player is still at least 4 YARDS away.
By the time the Donny player reaches McAllister, he (DM) is lying on the floor, both feet are firmly on the floor and the ball is approx 2-3 yards away on its way towards JJ.
The Donny player then falls over McAllister's arse!!
The tackle, although not the prettiest to watch, never endangered any opponent and certainly had no intent to harm anyone. In fact it actually turned out to be quite a decent pass!!
p.s if anyone knows how to put photos on an iPad or iPhone from my photo stream, if you pm me how to do it I will gladly oblige?!
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Post by stfcfan87 on Feb 27, 2013 13:41:25 GMT 1
If I knew how to put photos on here on my iPad, I have taken about 4 stills in stages of the tackle!! there is no dispute that McAllister leaves the ground with both feet. However, to suggest it is a two footed challenge is way wide of the mark. One of his feet is almost tucked underneath him and he only ever reaches for the ball with one foot- his right. He makes clean contact with ball whilst the Donny player is still at least 4 YARDS away. By the time the Donny player reaches McAllister, he (DM) is lying on the floor, both feet are firmly on the floor and the ball is approx 2-3 yards away on its way towards JJ. The Donny player then falls over McAllister's arse!! The tackle, although not the prettiest to watch, never endangered any opponent and certainly had no intent to harm anyone. In fact it actually turned out to be quite a decent pass!! p.s if anyone knows how to put photos on an iPad or iPhone from my photo stream, if you pm me how to do it I will gladly oblige?! Yep glad others have posting the same as me now!
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Post by Chic on Feb 27, 2013 13:50:25 GMT 1
If I knew how to put photos on here on my iPad, I have taken about 4 stills in stages of the tackle!! there is no dispute that McAllister leaves the ground with both feet. However, to suggest it is a two footed challenge is way wide of the mark. One of his feet is almost tucked underneath him and he only ever reaches for the ball with one foot- his right. He makes clean contact with ball whilst the Donny player is still at least 4 YARDS away. By the time the Donny player reaches McAllister, he (DM) is lying on the floor, both feet are firmly on the floor and the ball is approx 2-3 yards away on its way towards JJ. The Donny player then falls over McAllister's arse!! The tackle, although not the prettiest to watch, never endangered any opponent and certainly had no intent to harm anyone. In fact it actually turned out to be quite a decent pass!! p.s if anyone knows how to put photos on an iPad or iPhone from my photo stream, if you pm me how to do it I will gladly oblige?!
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Post by Liam on Feb 27, 2013 13:55:45 GMT 1
It'd be worth the club sending a few stills like that to the FA.
Number 3 gives a particularly good example of what we're all saying here - that it wasn't even a tackle, and he was jumping into space for the ball.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Feb 27, 2013 14:03:12 GMT 1
yep those photos make it even more clear
if there was one just after the third where it shows where the ball goes, that is surely spot on
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Post by Chic on Feb 27, 2013 14:16:27 GMT 1
yep those photos make it even more clear if there was one just after the third where it shows where the ball goes, that is surely spot on It's not that clear because Dave has already kicked the ball, so the ball is hidden behind Doncaster player!
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