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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Jul 16, 2012 12:04:20 GMT 1
Ed, I asked this once of someone on here who claimed the same, but do you have any evidence at all that the majority view is in favour of clippy? The only research I have ever seen either way was a poll on here that (if my memory serves) showed a majority in favour of the loggerheads. Now you could claim that a poll on here is not representative of all 5k regulars at the meadow, and you are right, but until you or someone else carries out a poll to show otherwise the only evidence one way or another, is that the majority want the loggerheads back. Matron I would suggest that a vote of Blue and Amber is not representative of the 5000+ fans who vist the GM on a regular basis. However the highly publicised petition managed to get approximately 20% of the fan base. I would not claim that 80% of the fan base want to retain the current badge, but among the fans I know most don't care about the badge it is a total irrelevance which at best will have a neutral affect on the club and at worse will reduce the playing budget. You dismiss the petition as being a small percentage, and then talk about the fans you know, which is a lot less than 1000+. Stupid argument.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 12:06:53 GMT 1
Ed, I asked this once of someone on here who claimed the same, but do you have any evidence at all that the majority view is in favour of clippy? The only research I have ever seen either way was a poll on here that (if my memory serves) showed a majority in favour of the loggerheads. Now you could claim that a poll on here is not representative of all 5k regulars at the meadow, and you are right, but until you or someone else carries out a poll to show otherwise the only evidence one way or another, is that the majority want the loggerheads back. Matron I would suggest that a vote of Blue and Amber is not representative of the 5000+ fans who vist the GM on a regular basis. However the highly publicised petition managed to get approximately 20% of the fan base. I would not claim that 80% of the fan base want to retain the current badge, but among the fans I know most don't care about the badge it is a total irrelevance which at best will have a neutral affect on the club and at worse will reduce the playing budget. Well I said that! However, what I don't get and perhaps what you can explain to me is, there are many people to whom the loggerheads means a great deal, most fans you know apparently, don't care one way or another, so who is against the loggerheads? Can you also let us know how much the playing budget was reduced by when clippy was introduced and what you did in protest at the gastronomical waste of the playing budget? Finally, and just so my facts are all correct, how much will it cost over say, the next couple of years to phase out clippy and phase in the loggerheads? Cheers
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jul 16, 2012 12:14:08 GMT 1
The whole "non-representative" thing is almost always put forward by people who appear to have absolute zero grasp of statistics.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jul 16, 2012 12:21:37 GMT 1
I'd guess that B&A probably over-represents the young and middle-aged sections of STFC's fanbase. I also assume that a majority of older fans are likely to prefer the classic Loggerheads badge. This might suggest that a proper poll of the 6,000 odd fans who go to games would be MORE in favour of the Loggerheads than B&A. On the other hand, by the very fact that they bother to find the site to join and post about STFC matters, I guess B&A also over-represents proactive and passionate fans. That suggests that there would be a higher proportion of fans with more apathetic or at least less strong views of STFC matters among the general fanbase. They might be more likely to fall into the don't know/don't care category if a proper survey of fans were carried out. Swings and roundabouts, but I guess the B&A poll view might actually turn out to be pretty representative. Pure assumption and guesswork on my part, but at least I have tried to reason it rather than just stating my opinion as almost certain fact like Hope.
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Post by Shrewed on Jul 16, 2012 12:25:58 GMT 1
Matron, let's clear about the cost of the badge, it was part of change over from the old Gay Meadow to the new ground which included in real times a new hospitality business that had never been there before. Therefore for example there wasn't a replacement cost of for example crockery for the restaurant that there would be with any change now.
I have no idea what the cost of change would be (rumours range from £10k to £80k) it is clear from again the small sample of Justin's questionnaire that when asked about how a new badge should be funded that a large percentage did not want a new badge if the cost would affect the football side of the club. Annually the club rarely makes a profit so any unnecessary expenditure should be avoided.
Anybody who supports the club should be against any unnecessary expenditure, which changing the badge is.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Jul 16, 2012 12:28:01 GMT 1
Matron, let's clear about the cost of the badge, it was part of change over from the old Gay Meadow to the new ground which included in real times a new hospitality business that had never been there before. Therefore for example there wasn't a replacement cost of for example crockery for the restaurant that there would be with any change now. I have no idea what the cost of change would be (rumours range from £10k to £80k) it is clear from again the small sample of Justine's questionnaire that when asked about how a new badge should be funded that a large percentage did not want a new badge if the cost would affect the football side of the club. Annually the club rarely makes a profit so any unnecessary expenditure should be avoided. Anybody who supports the club should be against any unnecessary expenditure, which changing the badge is. You dismiss the petition because it's not big enough, yet use Justin's survey to back up a point you're trying to make. Poor again.
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Post by Shrewed on Jul 16, 2012 12:34:17 GMT 1
The whole "non-representative" thing is almost always put forward by people who appear to have absolute zero grasp of statistics. Maybe you would like to how a totally biased petition provides a reliable result. A petition that makes not references to the consequences of the action. This whole exercise has got nothing to do with statistics. You have to have a solid base before you start using statistics. Maybe next time you post you might like to give us lessons in how to suck eggs.
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Post by Shrewed on Jul 16, 2012 12:37:57 GMT 1
Matron, let's clear about the cost of the badge, it was part of change over from the old Gay Meadow to the new ground which included in real times a new hospitality business that had never been there before. Therefore for example there wasn't a replacement cost of for example crockery for the restaurant that there would be with any change now. I have no idea what the cost of change would be (rumours range from £10k to £80k) it is clear from again the small sample of Justine's questionnaire that when asked about how a new badge should be funded that a large percentage did not want a new badge if the cost would affect the football side of the club. Annually the club rarely makes a profit so any unnecessary expenditure should be avoided. Anybody who supports the club should be against any unnecessary expenditure, which changing the badge is. You dismiss the petition because it's not big enough, yet use Justin's survey to back up a point you're trying to make. Poor again. Feedo, I dismiss the petition because of the way it was phrased, I quote Justine's questionnaire because the questions were better questions. It all to do we the way statistics are used.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 12:38:33 GMT 1
Anybody who supports the club should be against any unnecessary expenditure, which changing the badge is. Utter b******s.
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Post by Shrewed on Jul 16, 2012 12:43:46 GMT 1
Anybody who supports the club should be against any unnecessary expenditure, which changing the badge is. Utter b******s. In your eloquent language please explain either why it is necessary to change the badge or why fans who support the club should be prepared for the club to spend its scarce resources on unnecessary items.
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Post by Dan F on Jul 16, 2012 12:48:00 GMT 1
Ed, stop trolling. We've answered that perfectly eloquently over the weeks, there is no need for us to go into it again. If you really need a proper answer, PM me and I'll happily discuss it reasonably and objectively with you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 12:52:11 GMT 1
The statistics suggest (I'm not claiming this 100% scientific) that:
9% prefer the current badge. 3% prefer the Shrew badge. 67% prefer the Loggerheads. 21% don't know or care.
62% would spend more if Loggerheads merchandise was available.
Their spending would increase by around 150%
68.4% of people find the use of clipart unnaceptable. 55.1% think "Floreat Salopia" should be in the badge. 52% find the lack of loggerheads anacceptable.
58% would be happy with a badge which incorporates the loggerheads without them being the main focal point.
The cost argument is more irrelevant than you could ever imagine Hope2010.
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Post by Shrewed on Jul 16, 2012 12:58:42 GMT 1
Ed, stop trolling. We've answered that perfectly eloquently over the weeks, there is no need for us to go into it again. If you really need a proper answer, PM me and I'll happily discuss it reasonably and objectively with you. TMLS, I may have missed something but nobody has yet put forward a cost justification for changing the badge. Besides a few extra sales in the club shop I am not sure what other benefits accrue from the changing of the badge. Maybe a few fans will be happier but generally their not prepared for either themselves or the club to pay for it.
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Post by Dan F on Jul 16, 2012 13:01:16 GMT 1
Like I said, if you feel that strongly I will happily discuss it on PM - we've put arguments on here and there's no point filling the board up with repeated posts.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 13:03:24 GMT 1
Ed, stop trolling. We've answered that perfectly eloquently over the weeks, there is no need for us to go into it again. If you really need a proper answer, PM me and I'll happily discuss it reasonably and objectively with you. TMLS, I may have missed something but nobody has yet put forward a cost justification for changing the badge. Besides a few extra sales in the club shop I am not sure what other benefits accrue from the changing of the badge. Maybe a few fans will be happier but generally their not prepared for either themselves or the club to pay for it. Ed, you have already admitted you have no idea how much it will cost, so how can you ask others to put forward a "cost justification"?
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Post by Shrewed on Jul 16, 2012 13:12:14 GMT 1
TMLS, I may have missed something but nobody has yet put forward a cost justification for changing the badge. Besides a few extra sales in the club shop I am not sure what other benefits accrue from the changing of the badge. Maybe a few fans will be happier but generally their not prepared for either themselves or the club to pay for it. Ed, you have already admitted you have no idea how much it will cost, so how can you ask others to put forward a "cost justification"? I was just about to answers Justine's post on the same topic but he appears to have deleted it. Only the club can do a full cost justification but the one thing you can be pretty sure on is that if there was a financial benefit for the club in changing the badge they would do it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 13:15:16 GMT 1
In your eloquent language please explain either why it is necessary to change the badge or why fans who support the club should be prepared for the club to spend its scarce resources on unnecessary items. "Why fans who support the club should be prepared for the club to spend its scarce resources on unnecessary items" So, because I think they should, I don't support the club???
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 13:17:52 GMT 1
Ed, just wait for the minutes of the Supporters Meeting and then see if you feel same. "Justine" -really? Grow up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 13:19:36 GMT 1
Ed, you have already admitted you have no idea how much it will cost, so how can you ask others to put forward a "cost justification"? I was just about to answers Justine's post on the same topic but he appears to have deleted it. Only the club can do a full cost justification but the one thing you can be pretty sure on is that if there was a financial benefit for the club in changing the badge they would do it. Really? What has the financial benefit been of adopting clip art? They still did it. I believe there is a lot of face saving and obstanence at the meadow (and i suspect by you ). They would win so many hearts and minds if they just admitted the clip art experiment is a failure, and that's the kind of thing you can't put a price on.
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Post by Shrewed on Jul 16, 2012 16:12:26 GMT 1
Ed, just wait for the minutes of the Supporters Meeting and then see if you feel same. "Justine" -really? Grow up. Sincere apologies Justin just a slip of the finger must stop reading about the countries inept Transport Secretary.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 17:27:52 GMT 1
The problem with some people is they are so stuck in the past that they can't move on. Regardless of peoples views on the loggerheads I think this is the best comment on here, considering the person who wrote it Ed, I really cant believe you of all people would criticise people for being stuck in the past. Any new achievement that people wish to celebrate is constantly belittled by you and then you will refer to the good old days, when men were men etc. To me those the actions of someone who is stuck in the past You dont want the badge to be changed and as many people have repeatedly told you and other people with your stance, your more than entitled to your opinion. Therefore why is it so important to you that people drop the badge issue? If you are entitled to support the current badge then Id suggest we are more than entitled to continue with our view that it should be changed - would you not agree? And please dont spout the "its taking the gloss off the campaign" rubbish that the club tried to fob us off with. Id suggest that numerous players leaving and a price increase has done a hell of a lot more to annoy fans, rather than the badge issue. Afterall it is only a minority who care about it isnt it?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jul 16, 2012 17:28:22 GMT 1
Maybe you would like to how a totally biased petition provides a reliable result. If 100,000 of 56 million (1 in 560) causes an issue of being worthy of debate in parliament I would suggest what must equate to at least 1 in 10 (even by some of the spurious accusations made against the petition) of a fanbase should generate a discussion within a football club. Your cost arguments are uncosted! You don't know how much it would cost to change, and you don't know how much not changing is costing us! You are making spurious suggestions about the petition, the costs, the profit, the playing budget, all in a daft attempt at trolling. The naysayers told us "No-one really cares about blue and amber, most people don't mind, lots of people like blue and white, big sports firm don't make blue and amber kits, it is not in their catalogue, it will never happen, it will cost too much, it will take too long, your sample is unrepresentative" and then we launch an iconic blue and amber striped shirt, it has broken all sales records and has been out of stock in several sizes for months on end because they literally could not make them fast enough for the thousands that they have sold. Similar arguments are being wheeled out again: not enough people care, legal issues, the costs of changing , can't we just support the lads, stop moaning, don't be disloyal. Ultimately something like B&A is not representative in its purest sense, but if Tesco had more than 2 million customers sign a petition within a fortnight they would darn well do some listening. They would not be scoffed at. People pay a lot of money for focus groups: B&A could be seen as a large and diverse focus group.
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Post by Bob Rickerton on Jul 16, 2012 17:31:11 GMT 1
Excellent post TBH. Can we go back to ignoring Ed again now please?
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Post by mattmw on Jul 16, 2012 18:24:02 GMT 1
Maybe you would like to how a totally biased petition provides a reliable result. If 100,000 of 56 million (1 in 560) causes an issue of being worthy of debate in parliament I would suggest what must equate to at least 1 in 10 (even by some of the spurious accusations made against the petition) of a fanbase should generate a discussion within a football club. Your cost arguments are uncosted! You don't know how much it would cost to change, and you don't know how much not changing is costing us! You are making spurious suggestions about the petition, the costs, the profit, the playing budget, all in a daft attempt at trolling. The naysayers told us "No-one really cares about blue and amber, most people don't mind, lots of people like blue and white, big sports firm don't make blue and amber kits, it is not in their catalogue, it will never happen, it will cost too much, it will take too long, your sample is unrepresentative" and then we launch an iconic blue and amber striped shirt, it has broken all sales records and has been out of stock in several sizes for months on end because they literally could not make them fast enough for the thousands that they have sold. Similar arguments are being wheeled out again: not enough people care, legal issues, the costs of changing , can't we just support the lads, stop moaning, don't be disloyal. Ultimately something like B&A is not representative in its purest sense, but if Tesco had more than 2 million customers sign a petition within a fortnight they would darn well do some listening. They would not be scoffed at. People pay a lot of money for focus groups: B&A could be seen as a large and diverse focus group. Excellent post TBH As someone who works in customer liaisons and PR you make very good points. The length of time the clip art logo has been debated and keeps resurfacing, and the fact petitions have been made and alternative merchadise with a different logo are produced by supporters would flag up to any half awake PR bod there was a problem. Clearly 100% of customers/fans won't have given a view, and immediate alterations to the situation might be prohibitive, but to suggest its not an issue and everyone should move on is a bit unrealistic and not a particularly good PR or commercial move. Experience suggests such situations don't get any better by adopting the ostrich approach I'd also add on a personal note the new logo grates so much through its use of clip art and the image that gives the outside world. I'd prefer a return of the loggerheads but the key thing is to produce a none clip art logo. Every other football league club can manage it, so it's important we do too. I'm not against change just against shoddy design
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Post by chrispyshrew on Jul 16, 2012 19:24:23 GMT 1
Every now and then stuff will need to be changed from crockery to table cloths to kits when it gets out of date, broken and faded. That is the time to rebrand and now the ground enters its 6th season is probably the time. A rebrand back to the loggerheads would benefit long term I believe and bring a bit of karma back to the club.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Jul 16, 2012 19:30:26 GMT 1
Feedo, I dismiss the petition because of the way it was phrased I agree it was biased. I'll do another one. Question : Would you prefer to have the loggerheads back as the club badge? One answer only please. A. Yes B. Certainly C. Not Half D. Love to There, that should clear it up.
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Post by Shrewed on Jul 16, 2012 20:01:21 GMT 1
So TBH after the failure of your "zero grasp of statistics" argument, you now try to compare the petition with national petitions where there is a controlled population against a local petition where nobody knows the population. Do you really know that every vote for the petition was from supporters who see lets say 15 games a season. Of course you don't in fact you know that some of the petitioners see few or even zero games in the season.
Actually the club has done what you want discuss the issue and made a statement.
Please explain where I have made any spurious claims regarding costs or benefits, all I have suggested is that the club needs to make a cost benefit analysis of changing the badge. But I guess you believe that regardless the result of a cost benefit analysis you want a new badge.
Not sure where you get the thousands of striped shirts figures come from, an over estimate I'd suggest. Neither am I sure the relevance to the badge argument. I suspect if in 1970 most fans would have voted for the return to blue and white kit.
Shame that your supporters like Bob Rickerton are so afraid of the case to retain the badge, unless change it would be beneficial to the club, that they want to avoid discussions.
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Post by Bob Rickerton on Jul 16, 2012 20:10:44 GMT 1
Shame that your supporters like Bob Rickerton are so afraid of the case to retain the badge, unless change it would be beneficial to the club, that they want to avoid discussions. I'm not against discussion, and you'll have seen me contribute to the original debates across countless threads over the years. What I am against is your attention seeking attempts to go against the grain and wind people up by re-hashing issues that have already been discussed and answered.
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Post by Dan F on Jul 16, 2012 20:15:43 GMT 1
Can't we all just leave Ed to it now? I've certainly not had a PM so obviously isn't that bothered (the offer still stands, if you just wait until tomorrow now), and to be honest there's nothing new to discuss today so why not just leave it for now?
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Post by Shrewed on Jul 16, 2012 20:41:49 GMT 1
Can't we all just leave Ed to it now? I've certainly not had a PM so obviously isn't that bothered (the offer still stands, if you just wait until tomorrow now), and to be honest there's nothing new to discuss today so why not just leave it for now? I see no reason why anything should be discussed behind closed door, anything that is worth saying is worth saying here. BR interesting that you are happy for fans to continue to post pro-change items but as soon as someone suggests it's time to move on you react. Slightly biased view I'd suggest. If the questions have been answered satisfactorily you will be able to explain where the money for the badge change will come from. Nobody else seems prepared to answer that basic question.
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