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Post by Shrewed on May 9, 2011 14:49:56 GMT 1
Just think where we might have been with a striker scoring 20 goals we have been crying out all season for someone to consistently put the ball in the back of the net. Was impressed with Hall the type of box to box midfielder we have been missing. Typical of many town fans to write a player off after one game. Let's be honest that Oxford weren't really interested yesterday especially after the blunder by the keeper for the first goal. Typical of you to find a rain cloud in a blue sky. I wasn't writing him off, I was summing up the one game I've seen him play this season and I thought he was rubbish in it. He's obviously effective or he wouldn't have scored as many as he has. We should probably have given him more opportunity here, even though I wasn't much impressed by what he did do. That's old ground. Good luck to him, I'm not bothered he's not with us and wouldn't want him back. I've moved on, even if others can't. For a team that wasn't really interested, Oxford scr@pped like hell to keep out Harrold and Collins in their 6 yard box. Saturday doesn't make us world beaters but give us some credit. What do you want? Keeper makes mistake so goal doesn't count? Oh, and I was more impressed with Davis as the box to box midfielder we need. Whaddya know, he plays for us! You like Heavenly are totally entitled to express your opinion as I am. I agree for the first 50 minutes Oxford battled but after their keeper made a mistake (sorry Wright scored that brilliant goal)they dropped off the pace and their marking was in my opinion indifferent to say the least. Not sure what Davis has got to do with my comments regarding the ex Town player Asa Hall, but that's maybe because unlike some I go to watch a game between two teams not one. As you will know as an avid reader of my posts I very rarely comment on the performance of individual whether good or bad. You will also remember that the failure to sign Hall was one of my first gripes with Simpson, maybe if he had signed him we would not have struggled so badly in central midfield for most of the last 3 seasons. By the way you seem to mistake rain clouds for fluffy white clouds.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on May 9, 2011 14:50:32 GMT 1
Don't forget that Constable was marked by the best centre back in the division.
Also, a 20 goal a season striker guarantees nothing - ask Rotherham or Crewe. Didn't we get relegated with Ian Stevens in the team? Not to mention Rodgers/Jemson.
I prefer the goals to be spread around. 54 of our goals scored by 6 players, difficult to plan against that.
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Post by Shrewed on May 9, 2011 15:23:29 GMT 1
But the counter argument is Lowe and Davies and I suspect the problems with Rotherham and Crewe has not their ability to score goals but their lack of ability to stop other teams from scoring.
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Post by venceremos on May 9, 2011 18:31:28 GMT 1
Tenor's right - a good defence finds it easier to stop a 20 goal striker than a team with regular goals spread around it (which we've come very close to being this season). For all Holt's goals, ultimately we proved too easy to stop that season, and not because our defence was poor either.
Interestingly, an Oxford fan was telling me that Hall hadn't impressed him this season. My point was that I believe Davis to be a better player anyway. I quite liked Hall but I understood his agent influenced him to go in another direction and we couldn't have signed him anyway. Don't let that get in the way of another bit of gratuitous Simpson bashing though eh? Haven't you got over that yet? I don't think Hall was the missing link for us in any case.
Nice try by the way - I may read your posts, but "avid" is pushing it!
As for the meteorology, if that's a fluffy white cloud, you must be an even less cheery soul than I thought. To paraphrase PG Wodehouse, it's not difficult to tell the difference between an angry Scotsman and a ray of sunshine. These are good times for STFC - aren't they?
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Post by Liam on May 9, 2011 18:47:50 GMT 1
Tenor's right - a good defence finds it easier to stop a 20 goal striker than a team with regular goals spread around it (which we've come very close to being this season). For all Holt's goals, ultimately we proved too easy to stop that season, and not because our defence was poor either. Interestingly, an Oxford fan was telling me that Hall hadn't impressed him this season. My point was that I believe Davis to be a better player anyway. I quite liked Hall but I understood his agent influenced him to go in another direction and we couldn't have signed him anyway. Don't let that get in the way of another bit of gratuitous Simpson bashing though eh? Haven't you got over that yet? I don't think Hall was the missing link for us in any case. Nice try by the way - I may read your posts, but "avid" is pushing it! As for the meteorology, if that's a fluffy white cloud, you must be an even less cheery soul than I thought. To paraphrase PG Wodehouse, it's not difficult to tell the difference between an angry Scotsman and a ray of sunshine. These are good times for STFC - aren't they? Davis is a better player than Hall already, and by the time he's Hall's current age he'll be a far better player, simple as. Simpson made literally 10-20+ hiring/releasing blunders, but I don't think Asa Hall was one of them. Btw, venceremos, sorry for a petty 'I told you so,' but I can't help but recall that during my own Simpson-bashing at about this time last year I predicted to you something along the lines of "Constable will get 15+ goals for an upper-mid table League 2 side [by which I meant Oxford] next season." With hindsight letting him go to be replaced by Walker was a very poor piece of judgement, although to be fair many people (myself included) were rationalising it as a necessary evil at the time.
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Post by venceremos on May 9, 2011 19:05:48 GMT 1
Liam - happy to admit I was wrong on Constable. I was a bit biased against him when so many ignored the fact that someone had to make way for Holt-Walker. Wrong choice - with hindsight.
Still to be impressed by him on the few occasions I've seen him live, although I wasn't at Oxford away! Saturday's display of diving and moaning wasn't endearing.
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Post by Shrewed on May 9, 2011 19:26:44 GMT 1
Tenor's right - a good defence finds it easier to stop a 20 goal striker than a team with regular goals spread around it (which we've come very close to being this season). For all Holt's goals, ultimately we proved too easy to stop that season, and not because our defence was poor either. Interestingly, an Oxford fan was telling me that Hall hadn't impressed him this season. My point was that I believe Davis to be a better player anyway. I quite liked Hall but I understood his agent influenced him to go in another direction and we couldn't have signed him anyway. Don't let that get in the way of another bit of gratuitous Simpson bashing though eh? Haven't you got over that yet? I don't think Hall was the missing link for us in any case. Nice try by the way - I may read your posts, but "avid" is pushing it! As for the meteorology, if that's a fluffy white cloud, you must be an even less cheery soul than I thought. To paraphrase PG Wodehouse, it's not difficult to tell the difference between an angry Scotsman and a ray of sunshine. These are good times for STFC - aren't they? Are you really suggesting that the town would not benefit from a striker who is likely to score 20+ goals a season if we had converted a fraction of the chances we have had we would be worrying about the goal that never was. There is a good adage that the best form of defence is attack, having grown up in an era where the best teams view was if you score 3 we'll score 4. The reason Hall did not accept Simpson's contract was that he had previously been offered a three years contract by the club which was withdrawn. Lets get it right I have never compared Hall to Davis I suggested that for the majority of the last 3 seasons the Town have lacked a decent box to box central midfielder. However it is interesting to compare their statistic while at a similar age playing for the Town, in 2007-8 season Hall played 13 games 2 sub and scored 3 goals and 2 assists in what was a very poor side. This season Davis has played 19 games scoring twice with one assist. Maybe Hall would have improved more had he not lanquished in the Conference for two seasons. Are these better times than the other times we got to the playoff finals in the last 5 seasons, i'll let you know on the 28th May.
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Post by Liam on May 9, 2011 19:34:15 GMT 1
Liam - happy to admit I was wrong on Constable. I was a bit biased against him when so many ignored the fact that someone had to make way for Holt-Walker. Wrong choice - with hindsight. Still to be impressed by him on the few occasions I've seen him live, although I wasn't at Oxford away! Saturday's display of diving and moaning wasn't endearing. He was well marshalled by a good defence on Saturday and largely ineffective, it's true. I always thought that for us he was promising rather than truly good or bad. I think my prediction was mostly based not so much on what I saw, but more on the fact that it was impossible to judge him properly in a poor team devoid of confidence, and the fact his scoring record was good elsewhere. Are these better times than the other times we got to the playoff finals in the last 5 seasons, i'll let you know on the 28th May. Come on now, Ed, they clearly are. Regardless of what happens, we've just achieved our best League 2 finish and points total since we last won the title and our footballing style has probably been the best since then too.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2011 19:39:54 GMT 1
Goals weren't the problem for us this year. Our top scorer bagged 14 - same as Wycombe. And there was a good spread of them.
The problem was that in August and September, and February-May, we played like title winners with an incredible run-in - 7 wins and a draw from the last 9 games is stunning and testament to the manager.
However, for the middle part of the season, whilst GT had to tinker around with the squad, the tactics and the formations, we had the form of a side who could only just avoid relegation. 23 points from 20 matches between the end of September and end of January.
That's the reason we didn't ease to automatic promotion in a year when we it was easier to do so than nearly every other year since we were relegated to this level back in 1997.
It has nothing to do with James Constable, who poor on Saturday or not, has proven plenty of people wrong with his excellent goal scoring form this season.
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Post by Shrewed on May 9, 2011 20:14:52 GMT 1
Are these better times than the other times we got to the playoff finals in the last 5 seasons, i'll let you know on the 28th May. Come on now, Ed, they clearly are. Regardless of what happens, we've just achieved our best League 2 finish and points total since we last won the title and our footballing style has probably been the best since then too. Liam, I have seen less Town games this season, for a variety of reason, than any other season probably in the last 30, all the games I have seen have been at home. I would descibe the experience as a bit of a curates egg some very good passages of play as an interlude to some fairly poor play lacking both creativity and a cutting edge. Saturday was a prime example 50 minutes when it would be difficult to choose the team in fourth place followed by 40 minutes of exciting football. A home record where we have failed to win half the games demonstrates the lack of consistency that has resulted in a playoff place. This season we have demonstrated that we can beat the poorer teams but have struggled against the other top teams getting only 12 points from the possible 36 points from games against the other 6 top sides. If we are still playing 4th division football come August all the good work will count for nothing and I suspect that the league will be considerably stronger next time around.
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Post by venceremos on May 10, 2011 1:24:36 GMT 1
Are you really suggesting that the town would not benefit from a striker who is likely to score 20+ goals a season if we had converted a fraction of the chances we have had we would be worrying about the goal that never was. There is a good adage that the best form of defence is attack, having grown up in an era where the best teams view was if you score 3 we'll score 4. The reason Hall did not accept Simpson's contract was that he had previously been offered a three years contract by the club which was withdrawn. Lets get it right I have never compared Hall to Davis I suggested that for the majority of the last 3 seasons the Town have lacked a decent box to box central midfielder. However it is interesting to compare their statistic while at a similar age playing for the Town, in 2007-8 season Hall played 13 games 2 sub and scored 3 goals and 2 assists in what was a very poor side. This season Davis has played 19 games scoring twice with one assist. Maybe Hall would have improved more had he not lanquished in the Conference for two seasons. Are these better times than the other times we got to the playoff finals in the last 5 seasons, i'll let you know on the 28th May. I'm suggesting that it's simplistic to say Town would benefit from a 20 goal striker without considering whether that would affect the goals coming from elsewhere in the team. It isn't everything - many said United would decline without van Nistelrooy's goals. They became stronger. Then they couldn't replace Ronaldo. Yet they're about to win the Premier League again and contest the Champions League Final. Are you seriously suggesting we were a better team with Holt? Only he and Davies were ever likely to score - much easier to defend, as we saw at Wembley. As for getting it right, you said Hall looked like a player we'd been missing, I said Davis' arrival meant we hadn't. It's you that's now comparing the two directly and I don't think goals and assists are an appropriate measure for players in their position. If you seriously think Hall is the better player, well, I'm staggered but each to their own. Maybe Hall would have improved more outside the Conference - fancy 92 league managers and their scouting networks not spotting his obvious talent. They can't all have been Paul Simpson. Thanks for the offer but I don't need to wait until 28 May. Even if we lose to Torquay, I've seen already that these are better times. We'll be strong in League 2 next season if we're still here.
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Post by venceremos on May 10, 2011 1:30:57 GMT 1
If we are still playing 4th division football come August all the good work will count for nothing and I suspect that the league will be considerably stronger next time around. Why will it count for nothing? We started the season with 9 debutants in the first 11, so our progress has been very good. I'd expect us to have a much more settled squad to carry into next season. Did you really think it was just a one year job for Turner? There's nothing to suggest League 2 would be that much harder next season. It's usully pretty even and I think that'll continue.
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on May 10, 2011 8:24:39 GMT 1
Every team would love a player that can score 20 a season, but does it really help ?
The top 14 scorers this season in league 2
Donaldson Crewe 28 Lowe Bury 27 McDonald Gillingham 25 Davies Chesterfield 23 Le Fondre Rotherham 23 Miller Crewe 19 Corr Southend 18 Thomas Cheltenham 18 Lester Chesterfield 17 Harrad Northampton 16 M Richards Port Vale 16 Constable Oxford Utd 15 Craddock Oxford Utd 15 Grimes Lincoln City 15
Only 3 are in the top 7 teams and they are in the top 2 sides.
I'm happy with goals coming from all over the team. Were as if you lose your top striker, you look to see were the goals are going to come from.
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Post by Shrewed on May 10, 2011 8:45:09 GMT 1
If we are still playing 4th division football come August all the good work will count for nothing and I suspect that the league will be considerably stronger next time around. Why will it count for nothing? We started the season with 9 debutants in the first 11, so our progress has been very good. I'd expect us to have a much more settled squad to carry into next season. Did you really think it was just a one year job for Turner? There's nothing to suggest League 2 would be that much harder next season. It's usully pretty even and I think that'll continue. Maybe you'd like to comment on our recent history and the seasons following our visits to Wembley, did the visit to Wembley count for anything when in the following season the manager was sacked. The only affect it has is to increase the pressure on the team. Neither Peters or Simpson were under pressure both had longterm plans. As for next season I would suggest that Bristol Rovers, Swindon, Plymouth are likely to be stronger teams than Chesterfield, Bury, Wycombe and Crawley and Luton? will be stronger than Stockport and Lincoln. Your other comments are nearly Heavenlyesque in terms of avoiding the key points. Would the team benefit from having a 20 goals a season striker, comparisons with United are totally irrelevant, as is view of Holt who only scored 10 /11 league goals from open play for the Town. Undoubtedly a top class striker is going to be the focus of the other team allowing more space and time for others. If your view is that central midfield has not been the weak link in the Town team for the majority of the last 3 seasons I suspect you are among a small minority of fans. Yes it has improved in patches over the last 19 games but lets remember Davis is on loan and just signed a new contract with the Wolves. On Saturday I would suggest that Hall had a better first half than Davis who was like Wroe nearly invisible during the first 45 minutes. Davis improved dramatically in the second half as Hall and Oxford faded. Finally please tell me how do you judge an attacking midfield player if it is not by his contribution to the game which is all about scoring goals.
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Post by abcdef on May 10, 2011 10:21:04 GMT 1
Luton are not up at the moment Bristol Rovers and Plymouth will be decimated by financial problems so will probably struggle
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Post by stfcfan87 on May 10, 2011 10:27:19 GMT 1
I agree and disagree with the various point from you two.
I think Hall would have been a good signing and done well for us had Simpson been able to secure him at that time. He would have been a step up from what we had for the next couple of years. Yeah Davis is a good signing and possibly a better player, but it's taken another 2/3 seasons to get him and he's not even ours and might not be here last season.
No doubt for me that a 20 goal a season man would be advantageous. Who knows, had we had Collins all season he might have gotten there. Remember we did have a period where we struggled for goals before January's signings.
Also got to state that hope2010 is right when he states that getting through to the playoff finals in those seasons increased the pressure on peters and simpson the next season, however, I think this team is superior to their teams and that the expectation would be that we would get automatic next season (if we failed to get up this) given how close we were anyway.
Gotta disagree though with Hope2010's prediction of Bristol Rovers and Plymouth being strong next season. Plymouth are still fighting for their existence and Rovers don't have a manager and are apparently £3million in debt. I can see them being like Southend this season.
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Post by Amsterdammer on May 10, 2011 10:50:19 GMT 1
It is always argued that next season teams will be stronger. I'm not sure I agree with that as some of those we expect to be strong will screw up and be weak. At the start of this season you would have backed Northampton, Rotherham and Bradford to do much better than they did. Some teams will fall away, and hopefully not us if we don't go up.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 13:36:41 GMT 1
"If we are still playing 4th division football come August all the good work will count for nothing"
What absolute nonsense.
ShrewsEd/Hope2010 - you do talk sense often but these ridiculous statements really harm your credibility on here.
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Post by Liam on May 10, 2011 14:06:10 GMT 1
"If we are still playing 4th division football come August all the good work will count for nothing" What absolute nonsense. ShrewsEd/Hope2010 - you do talk sense often but these ridiculous statements really harm your credibility on here. Not least because - and it's important to remember this - "all the good work" is an end in itself. It's maybe not the ultimate goal, but simply watching a team play successful football with an attacking, passing style is realistically one of the best things you can hope for as a lower league fan. I'd suggest that in patches this season ours has been as good as you can realistically hope for in League 2. Shrewsbury are never going to win the Champions' League. We all know this, and we don't watch them in the belief they ever will. As a fan of a small club, what you want is to be entertained. Although of course things like promotion and cup runs help the entertainment factor - and are another important end in themselves - they're always going to be rare and fleeting. Watching an enjoyable season does not "count for nothing" unless you measure success purely in terms of silverware. If you do measure it in this manner, then being consigned to watch a team in the lower reaches of professional football from a town with a population of just 70,000 is a terrible fate indeed, and you should probably stop immediately!
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Post by venceremos on May 10, 2011 14:09:33 GMT 1
Why will it count for nothing? We started the season with 9 debutants in the first 11, so our progress has been very good. I'd expect us to have a much more settled squad to carry into next season. Did you really think it was just a one year job for Turner? There's nothing to suggest League 2 would be that much harder next season. It's usully pretty even and I think that'll continue. Maybe you'd like to comment on our recent history and the seasons following our visits to Wembley, did the visit to Wembley count for anything when in the following season the manager was sacked. The only affect it has is to increase the pressure on the team. Neither Peters or Simpson were under pressure both had longterm plans. As for next season I would suggest that Bristol Rovers, Swindon, Plymouth are likely to be stronger teams than Chesterfield, Bury, Wycombe and Crawley and Luton? will be stronger than Stockport and Lincoln. Your other comments are nearly Heavenlyesque in terms of avoiding the key points. Would the team benefit from having a 20 goals a season striker, comparisons with United are totally irrelevant, as is view of Holt who only scored 10 /11 league goals from open play for the Town. Undoubtedly a top class striker is going to be the focus of the other team allowing more space and time for others. If your view is that central midfield has not been the weak link in the Town team for the majority of the last 3 seasons I suspect you are among a small minority of fans. Yes it has improved in patches over the last 19 games but lets remember Davis is on loan and just signed a new contract with the Wolves. On Saturday I would suggest that Hall had a better first half than Davis who was like Wroe nearly invisible during the first 45 minutes. Davis improved dramatically in the second half as Hall and Oxford faded. Finally please tell me how do you judge an attacking midfield player if it is not by his contribution to the game which is all about scoring goals. Frankly, the history point's academic and not really worth answering unless you believe history must always repeat itself. Not sure why we should assume that relegated teams with financial problems should be stronger, or why it's news that the promoted BSP teams should be stronger than the teams they replace - pretty sure we could have said the same about Stevenage and Oxford a year ago. It's generally a very even league but some teams, like Bury and Chesterfield, manage to build teams over longer than a single season. As for your other comments - have a word! I've no idea what your "key point" is if you think my answer avoids it. I thought we were talking about the apparent benefit of a 20 goal a season striker. If so, my "irrelevant" comparison with a team that sold its 30 goal a season strikers and still prospered, not to mention the comparison with the last Shrews team to include a 20 goal striker seem quite relevant to me. I know you cling to the notion that no comparison can ever be made with anything that happens in another league. Suffice to say I disagree. Does a defence focus on the top striker and thus leave room for others? Yes, to a limited extent. But that's counterbalanced by the tendency for the striker's own team to do the same - ie to rely on him to keep scoring and limit their own responsibility. That's what Ferguson alluded to when he sold van Nistelrooy, whether you think that's relevant or not. And there's still the central point that a good defence will find it easier to stop one striker from scoring - and then where do the goals come from? Ideally, there's a balance. On the central midfield point, I was talking about now, not about the past few years. Yes, maybe Hall would have been a good signing when he was on loan but he went elsewhere so that's academic. My point is simply that I think Davis is a far better player than Hall so, in our CURRENT team, we already have the midfielder you crave. Before you say it, I know he's only on loan - I was only ever talking about now and the recent past. And finally, the obvious point is that a box to box midfielder and an attacking midfield player aren't the same thing. Nor would I judge a midfielder solely on the basis of goals scored. That would have made Trevor Brooking a very ordinary midfielder. Nor just on assists. Michael Carrick doesn't score highly on either count. Watch, for example, how good a midfielder is at retaining possession, making himself available for a simple pass, giving a simple pass, closing down an opponent, tackling, disrupting the flow of the opposition etc etc. No goals in any of that but you won't win unless players have some of those qualities. Never mind, it'll be raining again soon.
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Post by Shrewed on May 10, 2011 14:17:10 GMT 1
"If we are still playing 4th division football come August all the good work will count for nothing" What absolute nonsense. ShrewsEd/Hope2010 - you do talk sense often but these ridiculous statements really harm your credibility on here. How many points will we have on the first day of season because we lost in the playoffs - zero. How many of the squad on Saturday will be in the squad come August if we are still in division 4 maybe 10 or 11 nobody knows. The point I was making which you can not deny is come August whatever league we are in this season will count for nothing it all starts again with 24 clubs on zero points.
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Post by venceremos on May 10, 2011 14:17:13 GMT 1
Bristol Rovers and Plymouth will be decimated by financial problems so will probably struggle Every tenth player executed? Must have borrowed from some pretty nasty gangsters.
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Post by Liam on May 10, 2011 14:24:10 GMT 1
"If we are still playing 4th division football come August all the good work will count for nothing" What absolute nonsense. ShrewsEd/Hope2010 - you do talk sense often but these ridiculous statements really harm your credibility on here. How many points will we have on the first day of season because we lost in the playoffs - zero. How many of the squad on Saturday will be in the squad come August if we are still in division 4 maybe 10 or 11 nobody knows. The point I was making which you can not deny is come August whatever league we are in this season will count for nothing it all starts again with 24 clubs on zero points. By this logic, Paul Simpson was doing as good a job as Gary Peters, Graham Turner so far hasn't done any better than either and Jimmy Quinn is the best manager we've had in the last 15 years.
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Post by Shrewed on May 10, 2011 14:56:44 GMT 1
Jimmy Quinn achieved the target that was set for him that must count for something.
The fact we made the playoffs counted for nothing for Peters or Simpson neither of whom survived 12 months after the visit to Wembly.
If we are in Division 4 next season and lose our first 5 games Wembley and this season will be forgotten. As I wrote earlier I haven't seen that many games this season but if we fail to get promoted I doubt that many of the players or the games will be remembered.
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