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Post by stfcfan87 on Aug 18, 2011 16:13:32 GMT 1
I can't believe someone has actually asked this question??? Simpson was awful. Football was rubbish, he achieved little given the massive budget given to him and he demonstrated little man management skills what with constantly blaming everyone - including supporters - for his continued failures on the pitch
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2011 16:29:00 GMT 1
Correct Matron If you purely want to see it in black and white then yes they have achieved the same in that the they did not win promotion However how anyone could not see the difference and improvement between last season and Simpsons tenure is beyond me. have never said that i couldnt see an improvement. but how are we judging here? by the style of play? by the signings? by the league position? by whether we get promotion? by his post match rhetoric? what? So far turner has achieved nothing in black and white, and i make no apologise for expecting a bit more before i consider him an improvement on what has gone before. the team plays well at times, but i have seen some dross under his management to. RB, i have no problem as such. turner is a bit of a hero to me to. i fully remember his hay day here in the 70s and 80s. brilliant memories. i just dont believe he warrants all the hype people gave / are giving him, as if he is some saviour or messiah. to me, he has to prove himself here and now, not 30 years ago. I had to chuckle and indeed make the odd snipe about it from time to time about the spirit of 79 banner. turner wasnt the spirit of 79, there was a whole squad of players involved in that spirit. So in brief, i like turner, great memories from his original time here, but that doesnt in my mind give him automatic hero status with me and i will wait and see how we do this time round before i donate to a turner flag.
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on Aug 18, 2011 16:31:53 GMT 1
well imo so far they are as bad as each other and niether actually achieved jack s**t for the club. despite all the hipe and cringe worthy worship that went on when turner came back, what has he actually achieved? To say Turner has achieved jack s**t for the club is so wrong, Turner has got us promoted. OK that was years ago, but you should of said since he's been back. Since he's been back he has bought a bit a confidence back to the fans, that had been completely lost under Simpson, and put bums on seats. Simpson alienated fans, who may not of returned if any other manager had come in.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2011 16:41:41 GMT 1
well imo so far they are as bad as each other and niether actually achieved jack s**t for the club. despite all the hipe and cringe worthy worship that went on when turner came back, what has he actually achieved? To say Turner has achieved jack s**t for the club is so wrong, Turner has got us promoted. OK that was years ago, but you should of said since he's been back. Since he's been back he has bought a bit a confidence back to the fans, that had been completely lost under Simpson, and put bums on seats. Simpson alienated fans, who may not of returned if any other manager had come in. sorry for the confusion, i believe i have cleared up my position with my follow up post? as for the second part of your post, and i genuinely dont know, but are gates higher now than under simpson? my impression is that we have pretty much consistantly managed 5500 ish for our home gates? i grant you turner has motivated the fans a little, but, and i dont wish to sound cynical, but that will just lead to a bigger crash in confidence if things dont work out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2011 17:09:25 GMT 1
as for the second part of your post, and i genuinely dont know, but are gates higher now than under simpson? my impression is that we have pretty much consistantly managed 5500 ish for our home gates? i grant you turner has motivated the fans a little, but, and i dont wish to sound cynical, but that will just lead to a bigger crash in confidence if things dont work out. 5875 average last season at a time when the new ground novelty is wearing off against 5481 and 5664 the previous two seasons. Has GT ever portrayed himself as the Messiah, no he's just working his socks off to get us promoted. The Messiah tag mainly comes from the moaners so that thay can beat him around the head with it when things don't quite go to plan.
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on Aug 18, 2011 17:10:10 GMT 1
To say Turner has achieved jack s**t for the club is so wrong, Turner has got us promoted. OK that was years ago, but you should of said since he's been back. Since he's been back he has bought a bit a confidence back to the fans, that had been completely lost under Simpson, and put bums on seats. Simpson alienated fans, who may not of returned if any other manager had come in. sorry for the confusion, i believe i have cleared up my position with my follow up post? as for the second part of your post, and i genuinely dont know, but are gates higher now than under simpson? my impression is that we have pretty much consistantly managed 5500 ish for our home gates? i grant you turner has motivated the fans a little, but, and i dont wish to sound cynical, but that will just lead to a bigger crash in confidence if things dont work out. I'm really slow at typing, so I was replying as you replied, and you beat me I think last season was just shy of 6k average (not including the play off match), but that could be due to several factors, Tuner, near the top of the league etc. Although Hereford fans hate Turner, what he did for them Simpson could never of done. Simpson had players that are now playing in Leagues well above us. OK he got us to the play off final, but I could of done that with the squad he had, but I would of made the team play with more passion. Although it may have been missing from a few performances so far this season, but Turner has made Town play well and with passion, something which was so much missing from Simpson's time in charge. I have yet to walk away from a Town match under Turner and think "Well that's an afternoon of my life I'll never get back" which I did when Simpson was here.
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Post by sittingbull on Aug 19, 2011 20:00:17 GMT 1
Its like reading B.B. a few years back.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2011 21:16:12 GMT 1
Its like reading B.B. a few years back. or more recently even, when SittingBull posted: I support Hereford United, But this team is cr@p and so is J.P. (nice chap that he is)I will still be supporting Hereford United when this group of players are long gone and J.P. has been given some help. I've been supporting this club since the late 60's so I've seen some cr*p played at E.S. in my time, and I'm sure that I'll see more in the future.
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Post by Shrewed on Aug 19, 2011 21:24:33 GMT 1
as for the second part of your post, and i genuinely dont know, but are gates higher now than under simpson? my impression is that we have pretty much consistantly managed 5500 ish for our home gates? i grant you turner has motivated the fans a little, but, and i dont wish to sound cynical, but that will just lead to a bigger crash in confidence if things dont work out. 5875 average last season at a time when the new ground novelty is wearing off against 5481 and 5664 the previous two seasons. Has GT ever portrayed himself as the Messiah, no he's just working his socks off to get us promoted. The Messiah tag mainly comes from the moaners so that thay can beat him around the head with it when things don't quite go to plan. Paul, as I said on another thread it is difficult to compare attendances, if you ignore the exceptional attendances for the last 2 games of the season then the average for last season was 5679 very similar to the average attendance of 5664 for the season Simpson us to Wembley.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2011 21:39:21 GMT 1
5875 average last season at a time when the new ground novelty is wearing off against 5481 and 5664 the previous two seasons. Has GT ever portrayed himself as the Messiah, no he's just working his socks off to get us promoted. The Messiah tag mainly comes from the moaners so that thay can beat him around the head with it when things don't quite go to plan. Paul, as I said on another thread it is difficult to compare attendances, if you ignore the exceptional attendances for the last 2 games of the season then the average for last season was 5679 very similar to the average attendance of 5664 for the season Simpson us to Wembley. I quoted those figures to show you that gates have risen by more than 25% since leaving GM which you claimed they havent. And no you cant ignore the last few matches because GT and his team earned those crowds by the position they had got themselves into, same latter matches in Simpson play off season
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Post by albionshrew on Aug 19, 2011 22:06:18 GMT 1
well imo so far they are as bad as each other and niether actually achieved jack s**t for the club. despite all the hipe and cringe worthy worship that went on when turner came back, what has he actually achieved? Matron - even though I was formerly a Simpson blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; and the grace of our Lord GT was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in GT. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that GT came into the world to save Salopian sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, GT might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. Now to the King of the Meadow eternal, immortal, invisible, the only G(T)od, be honour and glory forever and ever. Amen (to that).
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Post by Shrewed on Aug 19, 2011 22:07:46 GMT 1
Paul, what you have demonstrated is that the key to attendance is not the manager or the players it is the position of the team. There is a much closer correlation between Position in the league and attendance than there is between manager and attendance.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2011 22:13:02 GMT 1
Paul, what you have demonstrated is that the key to attendance is not the manager or the players it is the position of the team. There is a much closer correlation between Position in the league and attendance than there is between manager and attendance. Oh God............ I give up Not the landmark 4000th post I had hoped for
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Post by markglasgow on Aug 20, 2011 0:03:37 GMT 1
Paul, what you have demonstrated is that the key to attendance is not the manager or the players it is the position of the team. There is a much closer correlation between Position in the league and attendance than there is between manager and attendance. Oh God............ I give up Not the landmark 4000th post I had hoped for Deep breath now!!
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Post by Pilch on Aug 20, 2011 1:54:39 GMT 1
well imo so far they are as bad as each other and niether actually achieved jack s**t for the club. despite all the hipe and cringe worthy worship that went on when turner came back, what has he actually achieved? Just to be pedantic Turner did win us promotion in 79 ;-)
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Post by Shrewed on Aug 20, 2011 7:16:47 GMT 1
Paul, you cannot just say because last years mean attendance was up that that was down to Turner as you claimed. There are more influences on attendances than just the manager like weather, opposition etc. As an example Oxford last season added over 100 to the average attendance whereas the last game of Simpson's Wembley season was away at Dagenham.
The mean is an ok measure for comparing things where there are few variables or were the differences are large but where the differences are small (mean attendance at the new ground has around 8% variance) then a different mathematical technique needs to be used.
I would suggest that a more accurate comparison on attendance would require: Actual attendances, Away following And then to process the data using the median technique.
I actually agree with you that Turner is a better manager than Simpson but I would not have used mean attendance to prove my case. I am surprised that no one has compared their actual record number of wins etc while at the club, but even there you are only looking at one measure of success.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 8:31:44 GMT 1
Agreed you need to look at far more variables for attendances. Bizarrely in all of this I'd imagine that Simpson's home record was/ is better than Turner's which I suspect would also have an impact on the number of fans turning up at home each week.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 9:34:30 GMT 1
well imo so far they are as bad as each other and niether actually achieved jack s**t for the club. despite all the hipe and cringe worthy worship that went on when turner came back, what has he actually achieved? Matron - even though I was formerly a Simpson blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; and the grace of our Lord GT was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in GT. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that GT came into the world to save Salopian sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, GT might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. Now to the King of the Meadow eternal, immortal, invisible, the only G(T)od, be honour and glory forever and ever. Amen (to that). Amen brother! Just to be pedantic Turner did win us promotion in 79 ;-) And he does wear a good line in suites Paul, you cannot just say because last years mean attendance was up that that was down to Turner as you claimed. There are more influences on attendances than just the manager like weather, opposition etc. As an example Oxford last season added over 100 to the average attendance whereas the last game of Simpson's Wembley season was away at Dagenham. The mean is an ok measure for comparing things where there are few variables or were the differences are large but where the differences are small (mean attendance at the new ground has around 8% variance) then a different mathematical technique needs to be used. I would suggest that a more accurate comparison on attendance would require: Actual attendances, Away following And then to process the data using the median technique. I actually agree with you that Turner is a better manager than Simpson but I would not have used mean attendance to prove my case. I am surprised that no one has compared their actual record number of wins etc while at the club, but even there you are only looking at one measure of success. Im a big fan of yours Ed and i think we see eye to eye on a lot of issues, but can i just say
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Post by markglasgow on Aug 20, 2011 12:27:37 GMT 1
Paul, you cannot just say because last years mean attendance was up that that was down to Turner as you claimed. There are more influences on attendances than just the manager like weather, opposition etc. As an example Oxford last season added over 100 to the average attendance whereas the last game of Simpson's Wembley season was away at Dagenham. The mean is an ok measure for comparing things where there are few variables or were the differences are large but where the differences are small (mean attendance at the new ground has around 8% variance) then a different mathematical technique needs to be used. I would suggest that a more accurate comparison on attendance would require: Actual attendances, Away following And then to process the data using the median technique. I actually agree with you that Turner is a better manager than Simpson but I would not have used mean attendance to prove my case. I am surprised that no one has compared their actual record number of wins etc while at the club, but even there you are only looking at one measure of success. It can be equally easy and difficult to use data to completely make a case for your argument. As a Data Analyst I mine, twist and contort numbers on a daily basis to show the view that I wish to present. The data set that Ed proposes would certainly nudge us closer to to reaching a truer comparison but other factors must also be taken into consideration. As Ant mentioned Home and Away form can be influence and I would certainly expect away attendances to be affected by the geographical positioning of our opponents in League 2 this year in comparison to the last few seasons. Wholly agree that there are multiple factors like weather, opposition, financial climate etc can have an effect, so it would be virtually impossible to baseline this data on a like for like basis. Statistics do show that Turner to date has a better record in his 2nd term as Town manager as Paul Simpson. These stats merely back up my own belief that we have a much better chance of progressing on the field under Turner. Turners Record G W D L Win % 57 25 17 15 43.86 Simpson's Record G W D L Win % 112 39 36 37 34.82
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Post by Salop_Ian on Aug 20, 2011 13:18:12 GMT 1
As mentioned above GT built on the work of Durban and Barker and got Town promoted to 'the second division' for the first time ever. To that you can add the fact that Turner, working with the chairman Tim Yates, put down the foundations for a 10 year stay in that division which saw Town finish as high as 8th.
Of course that was a long time ago. In his second spell so far his achievements have been restricted to equaling Town's best ever league points tally under 3pts for a win - 79 pts.
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