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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 13:28:47 GMT 1
I've found an article from a couple of weeks ago in which 'King Kenny' opposes a return to terracing due to the legacy of the Hillsborough disaster. What do you all make of it? Personally I think the bloke is totally wrong and his comments angered me. Link------> 96 reasons
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Apr 15, 2011 13:36:11 GMT 1
Like others, he's entitled to his opinion.
And if he angered you, then an added bonus.
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Post by elmundo on Apr 15, 2011 13:42:16 GMT 1
Bring back terracing.
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Post by captainpike on Apr 15, 2011 13:59:50 GMT 1
If that makes you angry and causes you to call a man a 'moron' for reasonably stating his point of view and not being offensive, idiotic or anything else then I dread to think what you are like when you get to Lttilejohn's page.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 14:13:39 GMT 1
If that makes you angry and causes you to call a man a 'moron' for reasonably stating his point of view and not being offensive, idiotic or anything else then I dread to think what you are like when you get to Lttilejohn's page. Technically speaking I did not call Dalglish a 'moron' - note the question mark which was included as a means of sparking lively debate. I don't think that arguing 'reasonably' should deter any criticism. If I calmly and articulately promoted the beliefs of Adolf Hitler, I would be swiftly met with a vast array of abuse and disagreement. The manner in which Dalglish presents his bulls**t opinion is - to me - largely irrelevant. Thirdly, discussing the capabilities of Richard Littlejohn is not the purpose of this thread. What do you make of Dalglish's ramblings? I note even Liverpool fans rejected his article as nonsense.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Apr 15, 2011 14:17:41 GMT 1
[quote author=drcrippen board=general thread=72495 post=897401 time=1302873219 The manner in which Dalglish presents his bulls**t opinion is - to me - largely irrelevant.
[/quote]
I agree that bringing back terracing should go ahead though to be fair to Dalgleish and anyone else who playing that fateful day could hardly be considered 'irrelevant'
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Post by captainpike on Apr 15, 2011 14:28:16 GMT 1
You implied he was a moron by asking the question, but let's not argue over semantics.
I am just interested why you treat the view of a man who has experienced a terrible tragedy with such disdain? His is obviously a subjective opinion, but knowing this why does it anger you so much?
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Post by Myddleshrew on Apr 15, 2011 14:45:39 GMT 1
With everything theres a ophion. Kenny Daglish is entitled to his however right or wrong it is. We would all probably agree with him if we were in his shoes and exprience the Hillsboro tradegy first hand. Im all for bringing terraces back as it brings a atmosphere I dont think the current Shrewsbury Ground will come anywhere nr the atmosphere of the Riverside. I dont think terraces will ever come back
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Post by captainpike on Apr 15, 2011 14:49:45 GMT 1
Add to the mix the fact that the police much prefer seating (easier to spot / eject people) and I think you're right, terracing will not return in the near future.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 15, 2011 15:04:59 GMT 1
it should be too much of a problem as its harder to force you way into grounds these days
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Post by captainpike on Apr 15, 2011 15:18:29 GMT 1
it should be too much of a problem as its harder to force you way into grounds these days I hope you haven't just opened a can of worms there...
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 15, 2011 15:44:15 GMT 1
If I'm honest I am very tired of hearing 'Hillsborough' mentioned whenever folk are looking to discuss the return to terracing. I have no idea why the press continue to insist on including comments from the Hillsborough group into their papers either, as if their opinion should have any bearing on the return to terracing. It shouldn't.
Very strange comment made by Dalglish about Germany. How on earth does he know how they would react to such a tragedy. Hopefully we'll never know...
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Post by blue and ambar on Apr 15, 2011 17:18:38 GMT 1
It's a very delicate issue especially today and if terracing was brought back the authorities would have to be very careful.
It's a shame that some make up their opinions about such events without looking at the full facts. Its hard these days to imagine what being a football supporter was like back then considering how much the game has changed. The idea of going back to those days doesnt bare thinking about.
Personally I don't think that 'safe standing' is a contridiction in itself however. If proper safeguards were in place and there was no way that the system could be abused.
I doubt it would happen thou.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 17:27:33 GMT 1
This is something that is of great interest to me.
I have never heard of an injury or death caused by someone standing!! and standing was not the cause of hillsbrough!! it was overcrowding, and regardless of it beinfg a terrace or a stand, it is overcrowding that is dangerous.
In fact overcrowding in a stand would be far more dangerous than on a terrace in my opinion as the pitch and angle of the surfaces are greater than on a terrace.
using terracing as the excuse for imposition of rules and especially under the taylor report, I have always disagreed. Say that it was a terrace that caused hillsborough is a smoke screen. It was poor planning, it was the lack of proceedure, it was the lack of contingency planning, it was the lack of sufficient trained staff and large crowds of people who, many were under the influences of alcohol that was the cause of Hillsborogh.
Very much in the same vain that speed is the killer on roads, which is another myth!!
Saying all that, I fully appreciate Kenny D's opinion, and he is entitled to it. But many places have proved thaat standing can be achieved safely and to great enjoyment!! but would not want it to lead to running riots of the late 80's which is where the real phobia of top flight clubs and the FA lie in allowing large groups to stand!! (My opinion only)
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Post by Namur on Apr 15, 2011 17:34:22 GMT 1
Although I disagree with King Kenny, his is an opinion that must be respected by any reasonable football supporter.
Not just because of the terrible events of Hillsborough, but this is the man who led the club through those times, attending funerals of men, women and children caught up in the disaster.
And besides from Hillsborough, he seems to imply towards a very valid point that for all the rose tinted nostalgia, football grounds in the 80s were in a sorry state and in many cases deathtraps waiting to happen.
Personally I can't see clubs who have spent millions complying with the Taylor Report happily ripping out their seats, however the main thing clubs could learn from the German leagues is their duty of care for the fans, such as in reasonable prices for top flight games so that all fans can have the opportunity to attend games.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Apr 15, 2011 17:41:47 GMT 1
In fairness Downie you talk s**te, of course standing up is more dangerous than sitting down.
Now, nowhere in your amateurish speech did you mention fences/cages, and as has been pointed out the sorry state of repair of virtually all our football grounds.
Remember the bank at Charlton ? Acceptable until catastrophe.
As for bringing standing back can't see it and tbh at my age don't really want it, it would be a step backwards would it not ?
On a side note why can't smokers smoke at grounds now everything is fire resistant.
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Post by jamo on Apr 15, 2011 18:55:21 GMT 1
Terracing was not a factor in the Hillsborough tradegy, p**s poor policing and lack of leadership was the problem.
Terrcaes are perfectly safe and by far the best way to watch football and are something that I would totally support an introduction of.
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Post by siabod on Apr 15, 2011 18:58:28 GMT 1
[quote author=windsorshrew board=general thread=72495
On a side note why can't smokers smoke at grounds now everything is fire resistant.[/quote]
Might be something to do with the health of others stood / sat near them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 19:51:28 GMT 1
In fairness Downie you talk s**te, of course standing up is more dangerous than sitting down. Now, nowhere in your amateurish speech did you mention fences/cages, and as has been pointed out the sorry state of repair of virtually all our football grounds. Remember the bank at Charlton ? Acceptable until catastrophe. As for bringing standing back can't see it and tbh at my age don't really want it, it would be a step backwards would it not ? On a side note why can't smokers smoke at grounds now everything is fire resistant. Thats quite right< i did not mention fences, cages etc etc, because they are also not dangerous, it was overcrowding that caused death, I will agree that fencing, and cages helped contain the fans in there, but if hillsbrough was policed and stewarded correctly, then over crowding would not have occured.
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Post by mattmw on Apr 15, 2011 20:06:49 GMT 1
Where I feel the all seater stadiums bring trouble is at grounds where some fans stand throughout the match and unintentionally force those behind them to stand too whether they want to or not. Recently a rather ill relative went to Anfield and had to stand for most of the game, despite being in a seat, which made the game less than enjoyable for them
I think either a section of terracing or standing in grounds, or a designated seating area where standing is tolerated would help all round so those who want to stand don't come into conflict with those who want to sit down
Interestingly one recommendation of the Taylor report that gets overlooked is that he said the cost of all seater stadiums should not be passed onto fans, so that the traditional working class fan was not priced out of the game. In 1990 you could get a season ticket at Anfield on the kop for £65, now it's £650
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Post by albionshrew on Apr 15, 2011 21:01:22 GMT 1
Terracing was not a factor in the Hillsborough tradegy, p**s poor policing and lack of leadership was the problem. Terrcaes are perfectly safe and by far the best way to watch football and are something that I would totally support an introduction of. Well said. I was on the terracing at Aldershot and felt perfectly safe. (Unlike the Town defence).
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Post by shrewroo on Apr 15, 2011 21:31:52 GMT 1
Old King Kenny was a merry old sole, and a merry old sole was he.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Apr 15, 2011 22:27:44 GMT 1
Thats quite right< i did not mention fences, cages etc etc, because they are also not dangerous, Mate your wrong, in any accident investigation there are many factors that lead to a conclusion. To say fences are not dangerous is to say overcrowding is not dangerous. Had there been no fences at Hillsborough then perhaps none would have died...even if it was only one life saved then it proves fences were conributable. You can only Police and Steward so much that day (IMO) the Police were totally unprepared for what happened..you yurself mentioned Alcohol earlier a factor ? I do accident investigation as part of the job, as I say there are many many factors leading to an injury.
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Post by jamo on Apr 15, 2011 22:58:19 GMT 1
Thats quite right< i did not mention fences, cages etc etc, because they are also not dangerous, Mate your wrong, in any accident investigation there are many factors that lead to a conclusion. To say fences are not dangerous is to say overcrowding is not dangerous. Had there been no fences at Hillsborough then perhaps none would have died...even if it was only one life saved then it proves fences were conributable. You can only Police and Steward so much that day (IMO) the Police were totally unprepared for what happened..you yurself mentioned Alcohol earlier a factor ? I do accident investigation as part of the job, as I say there are many many factors leading to an injury. The Police got it massively wrong at Hillsborough, pure and simple. No point introducing things that just confuse the situation. The police got it wrong on the day and they got it wrong afterwards by trying to control and manipulate the evidence. A very dark day for football and for British society because it shook to the core our belief in justice.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 23:04:51 GMT 1
Sod this I am now confussed, not sure how it happened but have to conceede that I am in agreement with.................. bugger..... cannot seem to put it in writing................ agree with J....A...... M.....O
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Post by Pilch on Apr 16, 2011 4:43:58 GMT 1
a can of worms happened on that day
don't shoot the messenger but it did
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 16, 2011 7:41:35 GMT 1
I don't think even the report at the time blamed terracing...
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Post by bertymax on Apr 16, 2011 7:59:46 GMT 1
Dont think we will see a return to terracing in the higher leagues for a while but maybe one day which will be great. I was only thinking bout this watching the Liverpool/Man city match on monday thinkin it would of been great to stand on the Kop as the crowd swayed. Then again, like others on here, ive been in a few crushes at STFC away matches where it was uncomfortable, Stoke away in late 80's springs to mind.
One of the best things about standing on the Riverside when we scored was going completley mental and realising when you had calmed down, you were 10 yards away from where you were originally. Cant do that in seats quite so easily!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2011 8:25:22 GMT 1
Terracing will never return sadly, its a controversial thing and the clubs/bodies have a easy get out clause in not doing it by pointing out the current high crowds. Basically its what some fans want but its not essentisl
My biggest gripe when the subject comes up is people saying they are happy sitting down and dont want to stand. No one is suggesting a all terrace policy, it would just be nice to have the option
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scotland
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Post by scotland on Apr 16, 2011 8:50:19 GMT 1
If it was all seated bums would be in seats not packing supports in like sheep standing and overcrowding is the problem.
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