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Post by Ned on Apr 14, 2011 23:36:50 GMT 1
I watched The Damned United today - great film by the way, if you haven't seen it then I'd suggest anyone on here to go out and buy it - and it got me thinking, who was better: Revie or Clough? Also, were either of them the best British manager of all time? For me, its definitely Clough
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Post by Slackbladder on Apr 15, 2011 0:02:41 GMT 1
Agree about the film, I really enjoyed it, but the book was better.
Neither Cloughie or Revie were the best British manager of all time, that has got to be Ferguson by a country mile. Neither of them would be second best either as both are behind Paisley in my opinion.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 15, 2011 0:42:13 GMT 1
after watching that film i'd say peter taylor needs a mention clough was nothing without him
you can only judge a manager by results
as pointed out already, fergie leading that by a long way at the moment
worth remembering he won the cup winners cup with aberdeen too that doesn't seem possible today
personally i like martin oniell i think he still has the time & potential to become one of the greats
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Post by Fingers on Apr 15, 2011 0:52:50 GMT 1
Chapman, Nicholson, Shankly, Stein?
Fergie has become the most decorated but he has also managed for a longer period of time.
Shankley completley reformed a club mid table in the second the tier and set up the club for the next 25 years to become a dominant force in England and Europe (when you had to win the league to play in the European Cup).
Chapman won domestic honours with two seperate clubs (something none of the others have done in England).
Nicholson won the double.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 15, 2011 1:38:55 GMT 1
it might have been a time where you had to win the league to qualify but it was also an era where the rest of europe bar one or two clubs were trailing way behind us british clubs used to dominate until they were banned no matter who they were, even villa somehow won it (amazing game to watch if you get chance, they should have lost about 8-0) i think it was unseeded too, it meant you could get a bye in round 1 they play some no hopers in round 2 and then straight into the qtrs i did prefer the old format and would take it back anyday
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Post by Fingers on Apr 15, 2011 3:44:56 GMT 1
Don't think Liverpool fans will see 1979 as a bye in the first round!
Will never revert back to old format - too much money involved.
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on Apr 15, 2011 7:51:49 GMT 1
For me it has to be Clough.
He could of done so much more. His problem was he was an out spoken manager, which chairmen and board members don't like. The main reason he never became England manager.
He took 2 small clubs and made them house hold names at the time. Never let player have big ego's eg. Trevor Francis, his was big enough for any club. He insisted on clean play from his players, something that is greatly missed in today's game.
He won League titles with Derby and Forest, and won the European Cup twice With Forest.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 7:56:02 GMT 1
Interesting to note that the despicable Billy Bremner has morphed into the even more despicable Al Capone in Boardwalk Empire.
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Post by jamo on Apr 15, 2011 8:03:12 GMT 1
Fergie has become the most decorated but he has also managed for a longer period of time. Which in an era when managers are sacked on a whim and not given anytime to stamp their influence on a club is the greatest endorsement of all. Furgussons record at Aberdeen and United sets him apart from any other in the history of british football. Plenty of others that for one reason or another sit just behind him. Shankly, Busby,Paisley, Clough, Chapman, Nicholson, and I would also include Wenger in that dispite his current lack of european success. As for Revie, he was a cheating, morally bankrupt money grabbing barsteward who should never have his name mentioned alongside that pantheon of other footballing greats.,
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Post by ratcliffesghost on Apr 15, 2011 8:12:18 GMT 1
As for Revie, he was a cheating, morally bankrupt money grabbing barsteward who should never have his name mentioned alongside that pantheon of other footballing greats., Oh I don't know, Redknapps in court in June
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Apr 15, 2011 8:32:42 GMT 1
As for Revie, he was a cheating, morally bankrupt money grabbing barsteward who should never have his name mentioned alongside that pantheon of other footballing greats., Come on, stop holding back your views - if you really want to say something then feel free and say it man
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 15, 2011 8:33:29 GMT 1
I think you can certainly judge the most successful manager based on results; not the best manager. Very tricky to come to any conclusion though about the best manager. It’s a great discussion though, that’s for sure. I think it’s best to pop the few into the ‘greatest managers’ bracket and leave it that, you can’t ever agree on who is the greatest. football throughout the years has changed so much it’s just near on impossible… Ferguson is no doubt a great manager and despite what he has won with Manchester I still think his greatest achievements are what he did with Aberdeen. At Manchester he has been given the resources way beyond the vast majority of clubs in England at a time when in money means success more than ever. I would not say he was lucky when it comes to the introduction of the Premier League but he has no doubt been helped with its introduction and what it brought to a club like Manchester. He has a vast amount of resources to draw on, millions to spend. Whilst that wasn’t the situation at Aberdeen. And it certainly wasn’t the same for Clough at Forest. To win two European Cups with Nottingham is just simply amazing, nothing less considering what he had to draw on. So I think about whether Ferguson could have won the European Cup with Nottingham Forest as Clough did with so little at his disposal. I reckon , yeah. Would Clough have won a shed loads of cups at Manchester in this day and age given all the advantages and resources available to him. Again, I’d reckon yeah. As to who is the greatest, I can’t say. Different times, a different game back then, totally different circumstances. You only now need look at the resources available at Manchester compared to Nottingham and Derby. Suffice to say that both are great managers. Plus our judgment is going to be biased towards the modern managers that are still fresh in the memory, those that we still recall plying their trade. But there are plenty of managers in history who revolutionized the game of football that we haven’t paid much attention too but you could also argue are the greatest considering the way they changed the game… Fred Davies should also get a mention…
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Apr 15, 2011 8:34:51 GMT 1
Despite all the other nominations and I hate to agree it has to be Ferguson. Pity he is also the most miserable whinging git to go with it. Can't stand the bloke
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Post by shrew54 on Apr 15, 2011 9:46:43 GMT 1
Despite all the other nominations and I hate to agree it has to be Ferguson. Pity he is also the most miserable whinging git to go with it. Can't stand the bloke He still sounds happier than Wenger
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 9:50:34 GMT 1
Loved that film but hated the writing style of the book. Clough was a genius but he went hand in glove with Taylor and I'm sure that Derby Co and Leeds Utd would both have won European Cups had things not turned out the way they did. As for greatest manager, Taggart has built several different sides at Old Trafford and every time you feel their dynasty is over, he reproduces time and again. And that with a plethora of side kicks (Knox, Kidd, McClaren, Queiroz, Phelan!!!). Yep for me, Fergie is the man, no question. Mourinho I hope will step into his shoes as he has the potential to be equally great
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Post by Amsterdammer on Apr 15, 2011 9:55:31 GMT 1
Clough was great. But I don't think he'd have survived at Man United in the way Ferguson has. He succeeded at Forest and Derby because he could run the whole show from the start something he wasn't allowed or able to do at Leeds.
You could break it down into: spotting potential/value in a player, tactical genius, motivational skills. Ferguson's record on the first and last is pretty strong despite the money he's spent (an early 2000s crisis excepted). You only have to look at the number of former players that have become managers (buying leaders) and still cite him as a massive influence. Clough possibly had more tactical genius, and at his height really had some motivational prowess, but he probably lost this from the late 80s onwards. Taylor was a big factor in his success, but mostly in being able to 'pick a player'.
I don't know enough about Shankly and his turnaround of Liverpool to compare, but worth noting that before Fergie Man United hadn't won the league in 20 years (or so).
Love him or hate him but I think Mourinho has the potential to be an all-time great. Seeing him out of the door will be the biggest mistake Chelsea will ever make.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 15, 2011 10:08:10 GMT 1
See Mourino already as an all time great and he plenty more seasons left in him. I guess he hasn’t been listed already because he only spend a few seasons in the English game ( unlike the others listed above). But good shout to include him. As much as Chelsea fans must be delighted with the money the owner has made available for players you could argue that it’s one or two decisions (perhaps meddling) that seems to have taken the club backwards. Losing Mourino was a massive blow to the club, a really daft decision to lose arguably the best manager in the world (if not the best, then one of the best). A crazy decision to let him go. Then looking to this season, Chelsea were seemingly cruising and playing really well until (for some reason) Ray Wilkins was asked to leave. Since then it’s all gone to pot. Which isn’t a bad thing really, to see a chairman meddling only for it to go tits up. Serves them right.
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Post by stockportershrew on Apr 15, 2011 10:10:57 GMT 1
I thought the book was far better than the film. The film, although enjoyable, was a bit "Carry on Brian Clough" in style. The book is quite dark and you can understand why it upset a few people.
As far as the greatest manager is concerned then Clough's achievements in winning the title with two different unheralded teams is astonishing, as is the subsequent European Cup triumphs. It couldn't really happen today more's the pity. However, as Pilch has said the role of Peter Taylor shouldn't be overlooked & Clough's decline in his latter years at Forest perhaps took some of the shine of his earlier achievements.
In terms of winning things Ferguson and then probably Paisley are the most successful. Revie shouldn't even be mentioned.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Apr 15, 2011 10:16:27 GMT 1
Despite his trophies I don't think i can give it to ferguson - he was in charge at a massive club but one whom were vastly underachieving. Having spent a fortune he was able to turn them into champions but in many ways i think he was lucky in that man united's first title and subsequent ones came at a time where english football exploded in terms of interest and money, which has basically meant man united have become super rich, which has enabled him to rebuild when necessary. I almost feel that you can't judge managers in the premier league era against those before just because things are so different in terms of finances, distribution of wealth etc.
In comparison his arch rivals Wenger and Mourinho have to be considered too due their achievements. Wenger has completely revolutionised the boring dull arsenal and created a very attractive style of football for over a decade. He's also managed a few titles and fa cups, although its dried up in recent years - despite not spending massively. Mourinho's achievements of winning titles and European cups with Portugese and Italian sides, and also the premiership with chelsea can't be ignored either.
His achievements at aberdeen - in beating both members of the old firm are probably better.
Onto the other contenders, Clough has to be one as he took 2 struggling clubs a division down into the old division 1, and to the championship and then won 2 eurpoean cups in a row
Shankley did similar at liverpool, but probably more so as he was the main founding block in a dynasty. For that I'd always rank him higher than Paisley.
Busby would have to be in the list too for his achievements in creating a great United team, and then rebuilding enough to become League and European champions after the tragedy of Munich.
Nicholson created a supreme team that was able to win the first double this century and which became the first British team to win a european trophy.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 15, 2011 11:17:27 GMT 1
Despite his trophies I don't think i can give it to ferguson - he was in charge at a massive club but one whom were vastly underachieving. Having spent a fortune he was able to turn them into champions but in many ways i think he was lucky in that man united's first title and subsequent ones came at a time where english football exploded in terms of interest and money, which has basically meant man united have become super rich, which has enabled him to rebuild when necessary. I almost feel that you can't judge managers in the premier league era against those before just because things are so different in terms of finances, distribution of wealth etc. In comparison his arch rivals Wenger and Mourinho have to be considered too due their achievements. Wenger has completely revolutionised the boring dull arsenal and created a very attractive style of football for over a decade. He's also managed a few titles and fa cups, although its dried up in recent years - despite not spending massively. Mourinho's achievements of winning titles and European cups with Portugese and Italian sides, and also the premiership with chelsea can't be ignored either. His achievements at aberdeen - in beating both members of the old firm are probably better. Onto the other contenders, Clough has to be one as he took 2 struggling clubs a division down into the old division 1, and to the championship and then won 2 eurpoean cups in a row Shankley did similar at liverpool, but probably more so as he was the main founding block in a dynasty. For that I'd always rank him higher than Paisley. Busby would have to be in the list too for his achievements in creating a great United team, and then rebuilding enough to become League and European champions after the tragedy of Munich. Nicholson created a supreme team that was able to win the first double this century and which became the first British team to win a european trophy. lol Having spent a fortune he was able to turn them into champions remember alan hansen "you don't win anything with kids" how much did that side cost ? maybe check some stats out before going with your heart
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 11:37:51 GMT 1
Surely the greatest manager of all time should have had a successful spell as an international manager on his CV
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Post by ferkle94 on Apr 15, 2011 11:46:31 GMT 1
paul simpson.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 15, 2011 11:51:19 GMT 1
Very funny is that. I suppose it all very much depends on what you call a fortune these days. I guess it happens so often now it goes unnoticed. How much were Rooney again? Nani? Ferdinand? And of course we only need look at transfers paid; these chaps obviously play for nowt at the weekend, just the joy of doing so. Rooney doesn't get paid at all does he?
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foxyloxy
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Post by foxyloxy on Apr 15, 2011 12:01:36 GMT 1
personally i like martin oniell i think he still has the time & potential to become one of the greats The bloke is so dull. Football is about entertaining as well as results, and O'Neill is yet to really achieve either at the top level.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 15, 2011 12:34:54 GMT 1
Surely the greatest manager of all time should have had a successful spell as an international manager on his CV Fergies CV took scotland to the world cup finals at the first attempt retired from international management with only 2 defeats during that period
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Post by WindsorShrew on Apr 15, 2011 12:38:29 GMT 1
Arsene Wenger
Without a doubt,
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Post by Fingers on Apr 15, 2011 12:52:38 GMT 1
Arsene Wenger Without a doubt, Remind me which part of Britain he is from?!? The transfer costs above is something you should view with caution. United were a dominant force in football when transfer fees in the single millions raised an eyebbrow - Cantona for £2m how much would he go for today? Would also add each time a new manager comes in a transfer kitty is often made available. Let's not bring debt into the equation On the same note Chelsea have spent the equivilant of approx 9% of their transfer spend from 92-10 on one player in 2011's transfer window
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 13:04:42 GMT 1
I can't stand Ferguson - beetroot-faced, whinging, miserable, snide, one-eyed, cheating, Jock wino.
He is however by far the greatest manager ever in British club football. Painful as it is to admit it!!
There have been plenty of "great" managers who have built a great team who have won things - Nicholson, Revie, Clough, Shankly, Paisley, etc... but most only ever really built one team.
I've lost track of how many teams Ferguson has built - this must be his 4th at Utd at least, possibly more depending on how you define it - and yet they will probably win the domestic double this year, and still have a decent shot at the Champions League.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 15, 2011 13:11:35 GMT 1
I can't stand Ferguson - beetroot-faced, whinging, miserable, snide, one-eyed, cheating, Jock wino. be fair, he's not a cheat
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Post by Pilch on Apr 15, 2011 13:24:41 GMT 1
Arsene Wenger Without a doubt, Remind me which part of Britain he is from?!? The transfer costs above is something you should view with caution. United were a dominant force in football when transfer fees in the single millions raised an eyebbrow - Cantona for £2m how much would he go for today? Would also add each time a new manager comes in a transfer kitty is often made available. Let's not bring debt into the equation On the same note Chelsea have spent the equivilant of approx 9% of their transfer spend from 92-10 on one player in 2011's transfer window you could say the same about clough first million transfer, most expensive keeper and so on and if the facts are right in the damned he was buying players at derby that the chairman didnt even know about
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