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Post by Scarecrow on Mar 29, 2011 16:13:42 GMT 1
Regardless of your political opinions on the Tory government and what it's doing you cannot deny that we should live in a country that allows freedom of speech and peaceful demonstration. While on the tution fee protest we were met with violence towards us when protesting peacefully and it seems the police need to really ask themselves what powers they have and if the methods in which the exercise them is just. Although my firsthand experience in December will obviously make me bias in one respect, however I just managed to find a video on youtube from the recent TUC demonstration whereby someone exercising his right to speech and is searched without lawful reason. The police themselves do not seem to know the powers and limitations of what they can and cant do and after reading some comments on the recent protest I wanted to show some people who believe that the police have just cause to do everything that sometimes police abuse this power (as with Onthetrain's other video). 7:27 in. Can anyone here agree with me that someone needs to sort this kind of behavior and believes that the police should not only enforce the laws but obey them. 9:40 demonstrates that the officers don't even know what powers they are exercising... Opinions?
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 29, 2011 16:34:34 GMT 1
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Post by jontifree on Mar 29, 2011 17:22:09 GMT 1
Why do "peaceful" protesters wear balaclava's and carry smoke bombs? At the start of the video it states that they were carrying out a "peaceful occupation" of Fortnum & Mason. That will be a "peaceful occupation" that included criminal damage. Peaceful demonstrations are permitted in this country and can be carried out as proven by the tens of thousands who took part in the TUC march on the same day. Anyone who turns up wearing a balaclava or having their face covered does not portray the image of a peaceful protester. The Police are perfectly within their rights to stop and search anyone they believe is acting suspiciously (and wearing a balaclava on a warm spring day is pretty suspicious). He was stopped, searched and released. Plenty of videos will come out showing "Police brutality" but they won't show the lead up to it where the Police have been spat at, attacked with various things and abused non-stop for hours. I take my hat off to the Police, they do a job I wouldn't want to do and they do it with far more patience than I would have. If you disagree with something in this Country you are privelidged enough to be able to protest about it peacefully without the fear of being shot or imprisoned for the rest of your life. If you go there to cause trouble then you should be prepared to be on the receiving end of some too.
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Post by mattmw on Mar 29, 2011 18:21:37 GMT 1
The metropolitan police have for many years been somewhat aloof to rules and regulations that other police forces abide by.
Know via others of two people arrested from the fortnum and mason sit in that the police told them if they left the store peacefully they wouldn't face arrest, nor did anyone from the store ask them to leave or report acts of vandalism to the police. So quite how 140 people came to be arrested afterwards seems rather odd
Being cynical I'd say the police decided to go for some soft targets to up the arrest levels rather than go for the real trouble makers causing the serious damage.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 29, 2011 18:22:51 GMT 1
And on the other hand jontifree an informed opinion would also say that the UK Uncut protestors at Fortnum and Mason were not carrying smoke bombs and wearing balaclavas and also were not violent.
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Post by floreatsalopia1 on Mar 29, 2011 18:27:29 GMT 1
Regardless of your political opinions on the Tory government and what it's doing you cannot deny that we should live in a country that allows freedom of speech and peaceful demonstration. While on the tution fee protest we were met with violence towards us when protesting peacefully and it seems the police need to really ask themselves what powers they have and if the methods in which the exercise them is just. Although my firsthand experience in December will obviously make me bias in one respect, however I just managed to find a video on youtube from the recent TUC demonstration whereby someone exercising his right to speech and is searched without lawful reason. The police themselves do not seem to know the powers and limitations of what they can and cant do and after reading some comments on the recent protest I wanted to show some people who believe that the police have just cause to do everything that sometimes police abuse this power (as with Onthetrain's other video). 7:27 in. Can anyone here agree with me that someone needs to sort this kind of behavior and believes that the police should not only enforce the laws but obey them. 9:40 demonstrates that the officers don't even know what powers they are exercising... Opinions? does this help you.. Under Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, a police officer of the rank of inspector or above may issue a written authorisation for additional search powers on the basis of a reasonable belief that incidents involving serious violence may take place or that people are carrying dangerous instruments or offensive weapons in the area without good reason. The powers relate to pedestrians and vehicles in a specified locality, for a specified period, not exceeding 48 hours at a time. Where an authorisation has been issued, any constable in uniform may stop and search any pedestrian or anything carried by the pedestrian, or any vehicle or anyone in it, for offensive weapons and dangerous instruments and may seize any such items which are found. In addition, the police may require you to remove any item which they reasonably believe you are wearing wholly or mainly for the purpose of concealing your identity. Again, the police do not need to have reasonable suspicion that the person is in fact carrying offensive weapons before stopping and searching under these powers Think the Supt gave authority for the day and the removal of the balaclava is lawful..
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Post by jontifree on Mar 29, 2011 18:35:22 GMT 1
And on the other hand jontifree an informed opinion would also say that the UK Uncut protestors at Fortnum and Mason were not carrying smoke bombs and wearing balaclavas and also were not violent. If I, on my own, smashed the windows of say Marks & Spencer then went inside and prevented their customers from entering or leaving or making their purchases then I would expect the Police to be called and for me to be arrested. If I did the same with ten mates and even though the ten mates did not smash the windows, then I would still expect us all to be arrested. They were there and they were arrested, how many will actually be charged with anything I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2011 18:39:23 GMT 1
Couple of points:
1) It was excellent to see the peaceful demonstrations in London on Saturday. Sign of a healthy democracy.
2) The guy with the megaphone is a grade A . The abuse he dishes out to the lads cleaning the statue gives an idea what an A******* he is, along with the drivel he's coming out with.
The police appear to be acting in a restrained and polite manner. Which is to be applauded given the nonsense that some of those in the video are coming out with.
Let's not get the issue of the current government dismantling the public sector, and the behaviour of a few idiots on this video confused eh?
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Post by floreatsalopia1 on Mar 29, 2011 18:43:29 GMT 1
Couple of points: 1) It was excellent to see the peaceful demonstrations in London on Saturday. Sign of a healthy democracy. 2) The guy with the megaphone is a grade A . The abuse he dishes out to the lads cleaning the statue gives an idea what an ars***** he is, along with the drivel he's coming out with. The police appear to be acting in a restrained and polite manner. Which is to be applauded given the nonsense that some of those in the video are coming out with. Let's not get the issue of the current government dismantling the public sector, and the behaviour of a few idiots on this video confused eh? well said.waiting for scarecrows reply now! ;D
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Post by shrewsace on Mar 29, 2011 18:50:10 GMT 1
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Post by mattmw on Mar 29, 2011 19:05:54 GMT 1
So next time there is some trouble at a town match, caused by a minority of fans (as happened v Hereford) would we all be happy for police to round up and arrest hundreds of fans ?
I'm quite happy for the police to arrest people who caused the damage to the store, but when you get police just rounding up people, lying to them and then arresting them it seems very unsettling to me. Think we should expect more from a modern police force
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Post by grinfish on Mar 29, 2011 19:13:13 GMT 1
Think we should expect more from a modern police force Indeed, but we're talking about the Met, so put yer knickers on darlin' and get the kettle on.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Mar 29, 2011 19:23:30 GMT 1
Always found people will have a pop at plod as they are an easy target.
Yet few on here would put themselves into plods shoes and fewer still know what plod has to put up with.
The Met in particular have to work in a very different environment from that in which we in sunny Salop live.
No they are not perfect...nothing is but I feel it is best to be thankful they are there in the first place.
As Gareth says the fact the minority are deflecting the message from the majority continues.
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Post by Scarecrow on Mar 29, 2011 19:45:50 GMT 1
Couple of points: 1) It was excellent to see the peaceful demonstrations in London on Saturday. Sign of a healthy democracy. 2) The guy with the megaphone is a grade A . The abuse he dishes out to the lads cleaning the statue gives an idea what an ars***** he is, along with the drivel he's coming out with. The police appear to be acting in a restrained and polite manner. Which is to be applauded given the nonsense that some of those in the video are coming out with. Let's not get the issue of the current government dismantling the public sector, and the behaviour of a few idiots on this video confused eh? well said.waiting for scarecrows reply now! ;D 1) I'm glad you agree 2) Being a "" is not a valied reason to search someone and if you listen he suggests he was even in the army. If this is true he obviously served this country and I don't think you'd call him that while he was doing it. I agree they act restrained however they can only do what the law allows them to do, he has obviously been targetted for mouthing off but this reason is not good enough. On a side note of him covering his face, do you notice how lots of protesters are doing the same so surely all of them should be searched by that rule?
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Post by jamo on Mar 29, 2011 19:56:20 GMT 1
Couple of points: 1) It was excellent to see the peaceful demonstrations in London on Saturday. Sign of a healthy democracy. 2) The guy with the megaphone is a grade A . The abuse he dishes out to the lads cleaning the statue gives an idea what an ars***** he is, along with the drivel he's coming out with. The police appear to be acting in a restrained and polite manner. Which is to be applauded given the nonsense that some of those in the video are coming out with. Let's not get the issue of the current government dismantling the public sector, and the behaviour of a few idiots on this video confused eh? Have to say that I agree with that. The Police that i witnessed and came into contact with on saturday were professional, courteous and helpful. Really hacks me off that such a powerful and enjoyable and joyous occasion should be overshadowed in this way. Democracy hey..!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2011 20:02:11 GMT 1
Couple of points: 1) It was excellent to see the peaceful demonstrations in London on Saturday. Sign of a healthy democracy. 2) The guy with the megaphone is a grade A . The abuse he dishes out to the lads cleaning the statue gives an idea what an ars***** he is, along with the drivel he's coming out with. The police appear to be acting in a restrained and polite manner. Which is to be applauded given the nonsense that some of those in the video are coming out with. Let's not get the issue of the current government dismantling the public sector, and the behaviour of a few idiots on this video confused eh? Have to say that I agree with that. The Police that i witnessed and came into contact with on saturday were professional, courteous and helpful. Really hacks me off that such a powerful and enjoyable and joyous occasion should be overshadowed in this way. Democracy hey..! And how dammed british and crass eh!! expecting people to behave in a polite courtious manner, rather than maurauding around smashing up our national treasures, how dare the police intervene and arrest these young ruffians (Lefties)
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Post by mattmw on Mar 29, 2011 20:21:30 GMT 1
Have to say that I agree with that. The Police that i witnessed and came into contact with on saturday were professional, courteous and helpful. Really hacks me off that such a powerful and enjoyable and joyous occasion should be overshadowed in this way. Democracy hey..! And how dammed british and crass eh!! expecting people to behave in a polite courtious manner, rather than maurauding around smashing up our national treasures, how dare the police intervene and arrest these young ruffians (Lefties) Trouble is the police seemed to forget to arrest the people marauding and smashing up things, but instead went for the soft targets in Fortnum & Mason who were actually sitting quietly and not damaging the inside of the store. So far of 149 charges brought by the authorities 138 are for aggravated trespass in f&m and only one charge of violent disorder for someone attacking top shop. Message of the weekend seems to be stick on a balaclava and smash things up and the police will probably ignore you, sit in a posh shop and have a picnic and you get the full force of the law thrown at you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2011 20:23:43 GMT 1
Well done the police, only shame is, some of those uninvted guests in F&M have not yet been arrested!!
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Post by shrewsace on Mar 29, 2011 21:55:35 GMT 1
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 30, 2011 7:54:19 GMT 1
And on the other hand jontifree an informed opinion would also say that the UK Uncut protestors at Fortnum and Mason were not carrying smoke bombs and wearing balaclavas and also were not violent. If I, on my own, smashed the windows of say Marks & Spencer then went inside and prevented their customers from entering or leaving or making their purchases then I would expect the Police to be called and for me to be arrested. If I did the same with ten mates and even though the ten mates did not smash the windows, then I would still expect us all to be arrested. They were there and they were arrested, how many will actually be charged with anything I don't know. The majority of people arrested on Saturday came under none of these categories: - wearing balaclavas - carrying smoke bombs - smashed windows - otherwise caused damage. The vast majority arrested have also been charged.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 30, 2011 8:08:05 GMT 1
Well done the police, only shame is, some of those uninvted guests in F&M have not yet been arrested!! You don't have to be invited into a shop - not even Fortnum and Mason's.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2011 9:57:02 GMT 1
Sean,
As it is private property, technically you do, although, it is an open invite!! thought the shop had been closed, and they broke in, which then ment that the open invite had been withdrawn therefore tresspassing!!
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 30, 2011 10:05:12 GMT 1
Sean, As it is private property, technically you do, although, it is an open invite!! thought the shop had been closed, and they broke in, which then ment that the open invite had been withdrawn therefore tresspassing!! They didn't break in. If the shop had been closed they couldn't have been charged with aggravated trespass. Clearly - guardina rticle refers - UK Uncut will have evidence regarding the "aggravated" part of that.
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Post by mattmw on Mar 30, 2011 10:08:34 GMT 1
Sean, As it is private property, technically you do, although, it is an open invite!! thought the shop had been closed, and they broke in, which then ment that the open invite had been withdrawn therefore tresspassing!! The videos on the uncut websites show the shop was open during protest with members of the public walking around and even waiters serving drinks to people. At no point were the protestors asked to leave by shop staff, although of course if 400 people sit down in a shop it'd going to make it more difficult to shop there, buy that's kind of the point of the protest Interestingly the police officers on the ground seemed fine with the sit in, but were encouraged to arrest everyone by senior officers. The Uncut group have been doing similar sit in protests around the country targeting shops that they feel are avoiding paying tax in the uk. The Fortnum and Mason sit in was the first where mass arrests took place.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 30, 2011 10:19:38 GMT 1
mattmw - the guardian article I link to above suggests that people did actually carry on shopping and using the cafe. The aggravated part of aggravated trespass will be a problem. It does not look as if UK Uncut walked into Fortnum and Mason expecting the police reaction to be the same as on previous occasions and have set their stall out quite carefully.
It is important to note - and is not one that has been accepted on this thread or by a significant part of the press - that UK Uncut did not form part of a violent rabble that hijacked the peaceful demonstration on Saturday.
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Post by mattmw on Mar 30, 2011 10:35:00 GMT 1
Sean - yes agree with you. Been following the ukuncut movement for a while and broadly they aim to bring attention to tax avoidance through peaceful, light hearted means. A lot of their members seem to be middle class workers
Being cynical I wonder if their protests have started to affect the takings at places like top shop, vodaphone etc and the big wigs have decided to take them down a peg or two. Court case about the Fortnum and Masson sit in will certainly be interesting
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Post by floreatsalopia1 on Mar 30, 2011 11:10:38 GMT 1
Regardless of your political opinions on the Tory government and what it's doing you cannot deny that we should live in a country that allows freedom of speech and peaceful demonstration. While on the tution fee protest we were met with violence towards us when protesting peacefully and it seems the police need to really ask themselves what powers they have and if the methods in which the exercise them is just. Although my firsthand experience in December will obviously make me bias in one respect, however I just managed to find a video on youtube from the recent TUC demonstration whereby someone exercising his right to speech and is searched without lawful reason. The police themselves do not seem to know the powers and limitations of what they can and cant do and after reading some comments on the recent protest I wanted to show some people who believe that the police have just cause to do everything that sometimes police abuse this power (as with Onthetrain's other video). 7:27 in. Can anyone here agree with me that someone needs to sort this kind of behavior and believes that the police should not only enforce the laws but obey them. 9:40 demonstrates that the officers don't even know what powers they are exercising... Opinions? does this help you.. Under Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, a police officer of the rank of inspector or above may issue a written authorisation for additional search powers on the basis of a reasonable belief that incidents involving serious violence may take place or that people are carrying dangerous instruments or offensive weapons in the area without good reason. The powers relate to pedestrians and vehicles in a specified locality, for a specified period, not exceeding 48 hours at a time. Where an authorisation has been issued, any constable in uniform may stop and search any pedestrian or anything carried by the pedestrian, or any vehicle or anyone in it, for offensive weapons and dangerous instruments and may seize any such items which are found. In addition, the police may require you to remove any item which they reasonably believe you are wearing wholly or mainly for the purpose of concealing your identity. Again, the police do not need to have reasonable suspicion that the person is in fact carrying offensive weapons before stopping and searching under these powers Think the Supt gave authority for the day and the removal of the balaclava is lawful.. scarecrow answer this observation as above...appreciate you are only a young chap but it is lawful!!
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Post by jontifree on Mar 30, 2011 11:19:10 GMT 1
So next time there is some trouble at a town match, caused by a minority of fans (as happened v Hereford) would we all be happy for police to round up and arrest hundreds of fans ? I'm quite happy for the police to arrest people who caused the damage to the store, but when you get police just rounding up people, lying to them and then arresting them it seems very unsettling to me. Think we should expect more from a modern police force Matt, perhaps I didn't put that across as well as it sounded in my head at the time. If I had smashed the window and then me +10 mates then went in and took part in the "occupation" of M&S with the sole purpose the disrupt the business then I would expect us all to be arrested. I don't know the full ins and outs of what went on there but those people who took part must surely have understood that they stood the chance of being arrested. Sean, the balaclavas and smoke bombs I was referring to are those worn and carried by the people in the above video. Why if they are "peaceful protesters" do they go dressed like that and tooled up?
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 30, 2011 11:57:30 GMT 1
The point I would make in response jontifree is that you are piling the violent people (who largely didn't get arrested) in with the non-violent protest by UK Uncut (who largely did get arrested). another link with eye witness information: gu.com/p/2z4je/tw
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Post by mattmw on Mar 30, 2011 12:28:19 GMT 1
The point I would make in response jontifree is that you are piling the violent people (who largely didn't get arrested) in with the non-violent protest by UK Uncut (who largely did get arrested). another link with eye witness information: gu.com/p/2z4je/twAgree again - the original video is actually of two separate locations in London. The first 2 minutes or so is outside Fortnum and Masson the remainder of the film is in Whitehall so two different incidents As I said previously police arresting people damaging property is fine in my book, arresting people for peaceful protests seems less just and a modern police force should be clever enough to tell the difference
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