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Post by Pilch on Jun 27, 2010 19:52:07 GMT 1
its funny how today the defence was a total shambles the midfield just passed the ball out for goal kicks or shot (badly) and yet its the same old few blaming rooney do they know how the game of football works ? I think you'll find most agree with you Pilch yet you seem to deny critism of a player dare I say it because he plays for Manchester United..... As I said previously there were other shockers out there over the 4 games. If you ask me the worst it would be Barry, Terry, Lampard, Upson, Rooney. why use man u in the argument ? it was about England today not Man U, Liverpool or chelsea etc rooney simply didnt have the service all through the tournament how many times today did gerrard shoot, i counted 4 feeble efforts in the first half, maybe had he passed to rooney we might not be having this argument i praised upson on weds but he was awful today, i cant even remember who he plays for if i could turn back time to 3pm i would play carragher instead of terry and carragher is the player i most dislike in the premiership johnston didnt have the best of games today either but i've not mentioned him as i dont think anyone could have done any better that is the whole point really its ok critisizing a player but please explain who would have done better if you dont give rooney the ball, you might as well have me out there what did defoe do today than rooney didnt ? cant see his name mentioned
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Post by blood red shrews on Jun 27, 2010 19:53:29 GMT 1
Walcott and SWP are both equally poor and basically premiership equivalents of Chris Humphrey nowhere near consistent enough at premiership level with his final delivery let alone on a world stage. Has he even scored apart from that game against a poor croatia side?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 20:04:33 GMT 1
a misfiring rooney or a choice of defoe, crouch and heskey...
I wouldn't have taken him considering the options on the bench
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Post by WindsorShrew on Jun 27, 2010 20:11:08 GMT 1
Said after the last game should Rooney be picked, thought In-ger-lund depeneded on hum far too much.
Pilch I agree he never got the required service but when he did get the ball he dispaointed more than most, that is my point.
Not a snipe at Man utd more of a statement of disapointement with a national side that clearly either dont give a hoot or are not good enough.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Jun 27, 2010 20:13:23 GMT 1
I think everyone expected so much more from Rooney, because he was simply fantastic all last season for United. The guy had an incredible season, but for some reason it hasn't worked out for him this tournament. He hasn't been signifiantly worse than anyone else, just the expectations on him were significantly higher.
I blame the English press, as they were quick to hype up Rooney and Capello, after Rooney's season and our easy qualifying. Now they have been so quick to attack them, I try to stay away from the media where England are involved because it is simply ridiculous
It is no suprise the two players most criticized by fans and the media, Lampard and Rooney, are the two who had great seasons last year and so expectations were so great
Gerrard, Lampard have the ability to shoot from range, there's more chance of scoring from a long shot than there is of giving the ball away, obvious really. Rooney has taken long shots himself Pilch, and wasted a golden opportunity to pass the ball through to Milner against Slovenia. Agreed though, i Rooney had received the quality of service this tournament that he gets from Nani, Valenica and co, then we may not be having this debate
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Post by poolieshrew on Jun 27, 2010 20:28:21 GMT 1
Walcott is a perfect example of an English player whose develpment is being hindered by foreign players who are considered a safer option at club level. He also hasnt shown the required hunger needed to improve his game technically something several coaches have alluded to, maybe its the 60k a week maybe his exclusion acts as a wake up call...
Rooney along with Upson, Lampard before todays slightly better showing, Barry, Green, all fall under the " dire" banner . With regards to Rooney lack of service probably only saved him from his stats being any worse.
Hart, A johnson, Walcott, Milner,Jenas,Rodwell and others who did well at under 21 level should be blooded in now alongside the likes of "Gerrard in a central role " Cole who had a solid World cup and im struggling after that to be honest!! If he stays big job for Mr Capello!
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Post by Tux on Jun 27, 2010 20:58:33 GMT 1
I think you'll find most agree with you Pilch yet you seem to deny critism of a player dare I say it because he plays for Manchester United..... As I said previously there were other shockers out there over the 4 games. If you ask me the worst it would be Barry, Terry, Lampard, Upson, Rooney. why use man u in the argument ? it was about England today not Man U, Liverpool or chelsea etc rooney simply didnt have the service all through the tournament how many times today did gerrard shoot, i counted 4 feeble efforts in the first half, maybe had he passed to rooney we might not be having this argument i praised upson on weds but he was awful today, i cant even remember who he plays for if i could turn back time to 3pm i would play carragher instead of terry and carragher is the player i most dislike in the premiership johnston didnt have the best of games today either but i've not mentioned him as i dont think anyone could have done any better that is the whole point really its ok critisizing a player but please explain who would have done better if you dont give rooney the ball, you might as well have me out there what did defoe do today than rooney didnt ? cant see his name mentioned Gerrard has passed the ball constantly to Rooney in dangerous positions in previous WC games. Rooney didn't do anything with it apart from lose it. He had the ball on many occasions this match. All he did was lose it. Maybe not in goal scoring areas but you know he could work to create his own chances instead of relying on everyone being that he is a "world class" player especially considering Germany's defense is not exactly the best anyway. Also he hasn't been in many good areas to even receive the ball to begin with. He can't expect service when he is not even in the right area. He hasn't been the worst player in the team but he's still been pretty bad regardless.
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Post by griff6732 on Jun 27, 2010 21:14:44 GMT 1
take away the 1st 4 mins of the 1st game and the worst player by a stretch as been Gerrard,been poor all season and only played cos of his name.I know the game is about goals but apart from his goal Defoe as been rubbish,never wins a flick on and cant hold the ball up so it just kept coming back.Heskey played as well as anyone 1st 2 games so nowhere near the worst player for England but does need to score goals
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Post by Stewie Shrew on Jun 27, 2010 23:00:17 GMT 1
What a load of crap! worst player Gerrard? actually watch any games did you? Green terrible mistake vs USA he will want Fabio to go so he can get another chance James did well vs Slovenia but today showed he never was and never will be international class Johnson, never an international defender A Cole, had an ok WC Terry, good vs Slovakia, terrible today King, Why take a player who hardly ever plays 2 games in a week? Carragher, Excellant for Liverpool, but found wanting for England Upson, dreadful player Lennon and SWP, much about nothing Milner, best player vs Slovenia and did ok vs Germany, but ok aint good enough Gerrard, OFFS.........he plays behind a striker....play him there Lampard, until today I didnt realise he was out there, should of stayed at home Barry, all right before today, well done Villa for getting 20m for him J Cole, dont why he went tbh, hardly anything to shout by season wise and it showed Rooney, the world class/brilliant/excellant United player was ....summats wrong Heskey, Did ok, but is he really the best of what we have? help! Crouch, why take him? Defoe, the saviour vs Slovenia was very quiet today, but subbed for Heskey? oh dear god! Cant recall anyone else that played, but I hope a few of the never play again for England
2 points though: It shows BIG TIME, there are too many foreign players of a poor quality ahead of English talent not getting a chance in the Prem and finally, we officially have the biggest overated, over payed bunch of prima donas in the world.....show up and perform or dont show up............rant over
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Post by shrew4life on Jun 27, 2010 23:33:31 GMT 1
its funny how today the defence was a total shambles the midfield just passed the ball out for goal kicks or shot (badly) and yet its the same old few blaming rooney do they know how the game of football works ? Are you related to Rooney? I've never seen someone defend a player so much.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 27, 2010 23:45:35 GMT 1
its funny how today the defence was a total shambles the midfield just passed the ball out for goal kicks or shot (badly) and yet its the same old few blaming rooney do they know how the game of football works ? Are you related to Rooney? I've never seen someone defend a player so much. great argument, you should be a lawyer if you picked the team today would you have left rooney out ? i just caught a couple of minutes of highlights and saw rooney put a ball on a plate for milner whos shot was excellently blocked a great pass to defoe which the germans got a crucial last gasp tackle in and a smart quick corner one two which almost resulted in a goal rooney did his fair share of supplying, shame the others didnt repay the gesture maybe you should watch the match again without prejudice
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Post by shrew4life on Jun 27, 2010 23:49:05 GMT 1
Are you related to Rooney? I've never seen someone defend a player so much. great argument, you should be a lawyer if you picked the team today would you have left rooney out ? i just caught a couple of minutes of highlights and saw rooney put a ball on a plate for milner whos shot was excellently blocked a great pass to defoe which the germans got a crucial last gasp tackle in and a smart quick corner one two which almost resulted in a goal rooney did his fair share of supplying, shame the others didnt repay the gesture [glow=red,2,300] maybe you should watch the match again without prejudice[/glow] Talk about pot calling the kettle black. You are one very blinkered man.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 27, 2010 23:55:50 GMT 1
your only argument as always is 'blah blah blah your only sticking up for him cos hes man u'
pathetic
i've pointed out 3 golden opportunities that rooney made for others which would have made him the hero had they converted the chances
maybe instead of getting all childish you could respond to the topic in question
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Post by stockportershrew on Jun 28, 2010 0:01:02 GMT 1
Carleton Palmer, Brian Deane, Keith Curle, David White, Nick Pickering, Tony Daley, Steve Foster, Luther Missit to name but a few (just take a look at the Graham Taylor era for a start) - Heskey wouldn't get a look in.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jun 28, 2010 0:01:44 GMT 1
Rooney has been poor but I think it's unfair to single him out. He was clearly rushed back from injury and struggled to find his sharpness in a woefully misfiring team. He is a good player as his Man Utd form shows and it's not his fault that he is over-hyped by the media and constantly compared with players like Messi and Ronaldo. We English have pinned all our hopes on him because, let's be honest, we have precious little else to pin them on. Look at his team mates today:
James - cruelly exposed by his defence so a bit harsh to criticise, but to easily beaten at his near post. Johnson - desperately poor, such slow reactions and execution, totally out of his depth. Terry and Upson - made to look like a pair of cart-horses, oh for a classy defender like Des Walker circa 1990. Ashley Cole - nothing much to criticise him for, if we had a player of his standard in each position then we might be getting somewhere. Gerrard - past his best, offered nothing in this game other than tame long shots when passing would've been better. Lampard - better attacking contribution but overall game still fell short of required standard for international level footie. Barry - another player rushed back from injury but probably the worst England player for me, a holding midfielder who couldn't hold a pint of shandy, consistently loses possession, looked about League 2 standard, anyone see when he turned completely away from the play expecting a free-kick (rightly not given) allowing the German a free run into our half? Milner - hardly a pacey or skillful winger, was able to make a yard and cross well against Slovenia's less talented defence but against Germany was ineffective and showed his limitations. Defoe - he's a poacher and there was nowt for him to poach. Think he'll always be a threat in a side playing well but England aren't one. Subs - cameo performances so no comment other than to ask what it says about the quality of English players when game chasing substitutions are Heskey and SWP.
The Manager - the qualifying campaign suggested he was worth his fat salary; this tournament performance suggests otherwise but in his defence it was a horrible build-up of injuries and scandal. If he doesn't resign I would be inclined to stick with him and insist he earns his coin blooding a younger squad in the Euro campaign with a view to 2014 and beyond. Other than perhaps Defoe and maybe Cole (if there is no up-and-coming left back) I hope to see all new faces in the next England starting 11.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jun 28, 2010 0:11:25 GMT 1
Oh yeah, and I would also stick with Rooney provided he finds his form and fitness.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 28, 2010 0:15:10 GMT 1
i totally agree with your summary japshrew i cant stand lampard (well only cos of his goal scoring at chelsea) ;D but i did feel sorry for him today so close to a hatrick (did score, hit the bar and the one where their keeper didnt really know about the save, it was a good save but quite fortunate all the same) the game was won and lost in defence ours cost us theirs saved them
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Post by texmexshrew on Jun 28, 2010 1:07:23 GMT 1
Rooney was really poor for the duration of the tournament , there is no doubt.
As Pilch mentioned early in this thread, how the much lauded Capello can still be unsure of his XI into the second game of a world cup tournament is frankly criminal.
That does not however excuse the players all of whom are culpable for gutless clueless and backward football exhibited on this stage.
Point the finger at Rooney, or Gerrard or Lampard or whoever you dislike most. The fact that the centre halves never looked like a strong partnership in any game, or the centre midfield was generally anonymous throughout, or the stikeforce didnt link play, in any of the 4 dire performances and the reality becomes clear. Individual players molly colled and pandered at club level. Lauded as World Class (really) lead by a organiser in Capello (really?!) this team have hopefully done football a favour in this country. Something needs to happen to awaken the deadheads within the FA , and if it means mass overhaul to bring in new ideas, new leaders, visionaries, so be it. Clear em out, shake it down and start with a FOOTBALLING strategy not a fecking Marketing one.....
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jun 28, 2010 2:03:40 GMT 1
Totally agree with that last sentence TexMex. Won't happen though as we all know the idiots at the FA couldn't organise a p**s up in a brewery and the Prem owners are too self-interested. I expect there'll be a fuss for a week or two then business as usual, starting with the circus that is premier league pre-season tours overseas. Harry Rednapp already mentioned this - he regretted the days of playing smaller teams in Devon or Scotland were gone and money dictates that they go abroad, which he says is far from ideal preparation. If they are serious about wanting improvements in the national team then they need to stop the stupid tours and have a proper break, scrap the League Cup, reduce the number of Prem teams to 18, have a short winter break and do something to reduce the number of foreign players in the league. Kids also probably need more skills training and less competitive play. Also it might help if more English players tried playing in foreign leagues too (but the cultural and financial barriers probably limit the chances of that).
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Post by heavenlyshrew on Jun 28, 2010 7:24:55 GMT 1
Pilch made a good point about Rooney not getting enough of the ball.When England were 3-1 down yesterday he was so deep looking for the ball the only player behind him was Upson and James.Gerrard shot over the bar with one shot yesterday where he could of played in rooney with a simple pass.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2010 8:04:19 GMT 1
GEOFF THOMAS
England caps 9
Results-Won 7 Drawn 2 Lost 0
Is he still available?
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Post by SeanBroseley on Jun 28, 2010 8:12:31 GMT 1
John Terry has been the worst England player in this World Cup. He doesn't have a footballing brain at all.
Rooney looks unfit. So does Barry.
Learning point 1: Only take fit players.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 28, 2010 8:39:04 GMT 1
If Capello wanted to play 4-4-2 then he should have selected players who are comfortable and capable of playing in that formation. If you are going to select who he did select then play them in their natural positions, where they play for their clubs. Instead we had players playing in a formation they are clearly unhappy and uncomfortable with...
Either pick the formation and pick players to suite it or pick players and then play the formation to suite...we got it all wrong...
I'm defo having 2nd thoughts about Capello now, its this 4-4-2...it wasn't working yet kept with it. Thats why we are coming home...
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Post by Optimistic Shrew on Jun 28, 2010 11:56:03 GMT 1
We need to drop these under performing panzies and blood in some youth. For the Euro 2012 team we should play Joe Hart, Chris Smalling, Jack Rodwell, Dan Gosling, Danny Rose and Theo Walcott. In 2 years time these will be very good players and we should carefully introduce them. What a load of cr@p! worst player Gerrard? actually watch any games did you? Green terrible mistake vs USA he will want Fabio to go so he can get another chance James did well vs Slovenia but today showed he never was and never will be international class Johnson, never an international defender A Cole, had an ok WC Terry, good vs Slovakia, terrible today King, Why take a player who hardly ever plays 2 games in a week? Carragher, Excellant for Liverpool, but found wanting for England Upson, dreadful player Lennon and SWP, much about nothing Milner, best player vs Slovenia and did ok vs Germany, but ok aint good enough Gerrard, OFFS.........he plays behind a striker....play him there Lampard, until today I didnt realise he was out there, should of stayed at home Barry, all right before today, well done Villa for getting 20m for him J Cole, dont why he went tbh, hardly anything to shout by season wise and it showed Rooney, the world class/brilliant/excellant United player was ....summats wrong Heskey, Did ok, but is he really the best of what we have? help! Crouch, why take him? Defoe, the saviour vs Slovenia was very quiet today, but subbed for Heskey? oh dear god! Cant recall anyone else that played, but I hope a few of the never play again for England 2 points though: It shows BIG TIME, there are too many foreign players of a poor quality ahead of English talent not getting a chance in the Prem and finally, we officially have the biggest overated, over payed bunch of prima donas in the world.....show up and perform or dont show up............rant over Villa got £12m for him.
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Post by nicko on Jun 28, 2010 17:32:42 GMT 1
Thing is when Rooney was on the ball his touch and decision making generally was poor. There's no doubt there was something wrong with him, whether it was physical or mental remains to be seen.
This argument about scoring 30 goals and being fantastic all season doesn't really stand up when you consider some of the opposition in the EPL and CL.
There's no point in descending into a tiresome Man Utd/Liverpool/Chelsea player argument, what counts is that at the very top level of the game England have been horribly exposed to be third rate.
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Post by SP on Jun 28, 2010 18:50:41 GMT 1
Could I also add that the first touch of both england strikers during the game was absolutely woeful, as it has been for other games for rooney at this world cup - everytime the ball was passed into feet, it simply rebounded off to an opposition player
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2010 20:48:46 GMT 1
Agree that whilst Rooney wasnt helped by non-existent service, when he did get the ball, his first touch was poor and his passing so hit and miss. I can only assume he wasnt fit because he seemed to be so flat
Pilch, as I said on another thread, its got nothing to do with Man U. He's a decent player, he's been hyped up (not his fault) and was expected to do the business for us. But instead he was terrible. Plus he didnt help himself with his rant at the fans, a bit rich of mr "once a blue, always a blue" to moan about loyalty
Very few players came out of the tournament with credit.
Rooney biggest disapointment for me Hopefully the tournament has ended Heskey's international career I would sacrifice Lampard to put Gerrard in the middle Glen Johnson still cant defend Upson is not an international centre half You cant rely on Ledley King in a tournament Going back to Carragher was a massive mistake Terry clearly has passion but is shown up for his lack of pace Gareth Barry is not the world class defensive midfielder people think he is
Basically we have very few world class players and have a collection of individuals. Not the best combination for a winning team
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2010 21:45:45 GMT 1
A tearful David Blaine was said to be distraught last night after being informed that his record of doing f**k all in a box for 42 days had been broken by Wayne Rooney.
Whatever the reason, Rooney had a bloody terrible World Cup - he gave the ball away more than any other player at the tournament to date - not the player we saw for Man Utd last year.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Jun 29, 2010 0:47:21 GMT 1
Agree that whilst Rooney wasnt helped by non-existent service, when he did get the ball, his first touch was poor and his passing so hit and miss. I can only assume he wasnt fit because he seemed to be so flat Pilch, as I said on another thread, its got nothing to do with Man U. He's a decent player, he's been hyped up (not his fault) and was expected to do the business for us. But instead he was terrible. Plus he didnt help himself with his rant at the fans, a bit rich of mr "once a blue, always a blue" to moan about loyalty Very few players came out of the tournament with credit. Rooney biggest disapointment for me Hopefully the tournament has ended Heskey's international career I would sacrifice Lampard to put Gerrard in the middle Glen Johnson still cant defend Upson is not an international centre half You cant rely on Ledley King in a tournament Going back to Carragher was a massive mistake Terry clearly has passion but is shown up for his lack of pace Gareth Barry is not the world class defensive midfielder people think he is Basically we have very few world class players and have a collection of individuals. Not the best combination for a winning team Good points, but with regards to Ledley King I've gotta include Rio Ferdinand to that comment, I thought we were in trouble the minute he was awarded the captaincy, he's another who's career has to be over. And while a lot has been said about Rooney not looking fit, I also wonder about Gareth Barry - as we know he got injured right at the end of the season and was doubtful for the tournament, and even missed the first match. I'm not sure he was fully fit. The worst decision Capello made was not taking another defensive midfielder. And I will defend Barry a little in that I think his role is virtually impossible as we've two full backs who bomb forward like Brazilian's but unlike Brazil we only play 1 holding midfielder. Meanwhile Gerrard and Lampard both want to play as the same attacking midfielder. I also think the world cup has shown that many of our players have no positional sense too - we've seen both centre backs charging over to the left back position, our left midfielder was hardly ever there, and frequently our strikers were back in midfield or even defence.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 29, 2010 7:04:50 GMT 1
The lampards gerrard debate has gone on for a long time I'm not sure if it's right or not but I guess that had lampards played for Liverpool instead of Chelsea for the past few seasons it would have helped Their cause instead of hindering it
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