|
Post by shrewsace on Jun 27, 2010 16:31:09 GMT 1
There's only so many times you can get away with it.
They failed under Eriksson, under McClaren, under Capello.
Sympathetically reported as being far better than they could show against Algeria and the USA, in truth no better than adequate against Slovenia.
Truth is that this collection of players are no golden generation and never have been.
Finally exposed as hyped up chancers this afternoon.
s**t.
|
|
|
Post by SeanBroseley on Jun 27, 2010 16:45:25 GMT 1
Again: [/url] We should take Craig Johnston up on his offer.
|
|
|
Post by hooverfoxhat on Jun 27, 2010 16:49:39 GMT 1
Time for Harry Redknapp to step up to the plate I think, ditch the foreign coach and revert to an Englishman in charge, can't really think of any other manager who might be able to mould a team capable of performing at the highest level.
The only positive to take from this tournament is the distinct possibility that Joe Hart will hopefully get his first competitive start in the Euro qualifiers - far too many so called big name players who simply didn't show themselves as big game players, over paid, over hyped and over there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 16:57:36 GMT 1
Since I've been alive, England have beaten Paraguay (twice), Denmark, Belgium and Cameroon in knock-out stages of the 8 World Cups they've entered.
They've lost to Argentina (twice), Germany (twice), Brazil and Portugal.
There's a pattern there. And it's nothing to do with the coach.
|
|
|
Post by Dont believe the HYPE on Jun 27, 2010 16:57:27 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by mrbunny on Jun 27, 2010 17:01:18 GMT 1
Give the job to Hodgson if we make a change and get rid of the overhyped failures Terry,Lampard and a few more old timers and pick Hart,Jagielka,Rodwell and Johnson.
We were so lacking pace it was like watching Town last season.
|
|
|
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 27, 2010 17:16:02 GMT 1
All very strange.
If Rooney had a different name on his shirt he would have been substituted at half time, woeful.
Right footed Gerrard on the left, Left footed Joe Cole on the right, need some goals, take off Defoe for Heskey!
Crouch has a decent scoring record, he barely gets 10 minutes in the whole tournament.
|
|
|
Post by oteley on Jun 27, 2010 17:21:11 GMT 1
Can't believe how bad we have been over the last couple of weeks. Overpaid, materialistic s**ts with no pride. Capello should resign his decision making has been woeful. We've nothing to lose so let's go back to an English coach; hodgson, redknapp or pearce please and give them loads of time.
|
|
|
Post by DiggerDave on Jun 27, 2010 17:24:39 GMT 1
Good call there Dave.I would have had Crouch on for Rooney before half time.He must have given the ball away more than any England player this tournament.Crouch does at least stop the opposition heading the ball away.
|
|
|
Post by Dont believe the HYPE on Jun 27, 2010 17:24:54 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by DiggerDave on Jun 27, 2010 17:25:00 GMT 1
and of course he scores goals.
|
|
|
Post by shrewsace on Jun 27, 2010 17:26:08 GMT 1
Going back to a post made by one of B & A's most consistently good poster, mattmw, the root of our problem is that we don't value technique and reading / understanding of the game at grassroots level.
A real short term-ism seems to affect the sort of players we bring through. We put big emphasis on winning at a ridiculously young age. We believe we can make footballers out of athletes; if a lad is big or quick we can teach him the rest.
You can't.
That said, the utter anonymity of Rooney, our most naturally gifted player, followed closeley by Lampard, while even Gerrard was awful today is down to more than the way we develop young players.
The attempted Terry mutiny is also a story yet to be told.
I don't think the players ever believed in Capello's tactics (everyone seemed to be crying out for 4-4-1-1 - Gerrard off Rooney), but Capello never seemed to even consider it.
Short term Redknapp could have the 'Venables factor', should Capello stand down / be eased out.
|
|
|
Post by oteley on Jun 27, 2010 17:29:42 GMT 1
Seems to have done ok at Spurs. No guarantees but what do we have to lose? Any better suggestions?! Also think you are underestimating the impact Vera could have.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 17:33:25 GMT 1
[ Any better suggestions? how about Coco The Clown?
|
|
|
Post by MarkRowley on Jun 27, 2010 17:34:14 GMT 1
Since I've been alive, England have beaten Paraguay (twice), Denmark, Belgium and Cameroon in knock-out stages of the 8 World Cups they've entered. They've lost to Argentina (twice), Germany (twice), Brazil and Portugal. There's a pattern there. And it's nothing to do with the coach. Good job you're not a bit older like me Gareth , 1982 we fizzled out in the second phase with 2 goalless draws against Germany and Spain, and we couldn't even be bothered to qualify in 1974 and 1978
|
|
|
Post by MarkRowley on Jun 27, 2010 17:38:38 GMT 1
[/url] We should take Craig Johnston up on his offer. [/quote] He's spot in fairness, until the bunch of c***s that is the FA are replaced in wholesale fashion we will continue to under achieve, as their erroneous policies and systems are not just affecting players now but are impacting on the next generations coming through. He's also right about kids though. The vast majority of kids when I was young would come straight home from from school, get changed and be out for a couple hours of footie before tea - now everyone's on their Xbox and Wii
|
|
|
Post by hooverfoxhat on Jun 27, 2010 17:40:19 GMT 1
And the worrying thing is that at grass roots level with children as young as 5 they are not being taught the basics of the game, it's all about getting the ball forward as quickly as possible, the art of passing is unfortunately a dying trade, technique is something that many choose to ignore on any gven training session amongst school children and until that changes then England will always be sadly lacking - the children of today are the stars of tomorrow.
|
|
|
Post by blood red shrews on Jun 27, 2010 17:46:41 GMT 1
Capello can only work with what he's given, the truth is we're not a semi-final final quality side i had us for a 3-0 loss today so i got the margin right unfortunately, the media need to stop hyping up these players and realise we're a quarter finals side and with a bit of luck and some good performances maybe get a bit further.
I know i'm not the most optimistic England fan but i couldn't believe before the game all the people saying noe of those germans would get in our team, Klose 11 world cup goals, Podolski who was runner up in the golden boot 4 years ago and averages a goal every 2 games for the national side. Lahm who is a great full back and certainly alot better than Johnson and Germanys youngest captain. Schweinsteiger who is a great player he's 25 and has over 200 games for Bayern under his belt plus 78 caps and 18 goals. Not to mention Ozil who has been excellent this tournament and is going to get even better....and he looks like Zamora who in turn looks like the crazy frog.
We haven't got world class players we have some really good players and some good premiership players, how many play for top clubs Man utd, Chelsea and Arsenal? How many are so good they're playing for other top european clubs Bayern, Inter,Barcelona, Madrid, A.C Milan, Juve? How many do the other top teams have playing for top class sides.
We haven't got the technical ability and movement of the Germans and the Italians (not for most of this tournament obviously) We haven't got the passion and work rate and sheer determination like some of the Asian sides and the Americans which makes up for perhaps not having a wealth of world class players and they can pull off results against top sides.
I would like to see for the european championship qualifiers young players brought in and start from scratch with 4 years in mind and get them playing together now like the germans have, as for the next 3 world cups that teams going to be a huge force.
|
|
|
Post by WindsorShrew on Jun 27, 2010 17:46:29 GMT 1
[ Any better suggestions? how about Coco The Clown? Nope he is refusing to leave Kirkaldy....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 17:53:06 GMT 1
Since I've been alive, England have beaten Paraguay (twice), Denmark, Belgium and Cameroon in knock-out stages of the 8 World Cups they've entered. They've lost to Argentina (twice), Germany (twice), Brazil and Portugal. There's a pattern there. And it's nothing to do with the coach. As an Englishman I have to say Welshrew is spot on. I stated a couple of months ago England will not win the World Cup again in most of our lifetimes, but I always live in hope that I am wrong. England is at the bottom of the heap and little coming through for the future, apart from maybe the likes of Hart, Rodwell and a few others. People will state we have to many foreign players in the Premiership, but for me the fact we have to many foreign managers is the first problem, who will bring foreign players over and stunt the development of our young players. Not that a lot of them have been any good with Italy and France going home early.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 18:05:31 GMT 1
I don't think the players ever believed in Capello's tactics (everyone seemed to be crying out for 4-4-1-1 - Gerrard off Rooney), but Capello never seemed to even consider it. Too much is made of the tactics, Germany - on paper could be argued they are only individually average but Played together as a team Good decision making on the pitch Played with spirit Followed their game plan kept the game simple Nothing more and will probably not get past the Quarter final England a team of individuals who were individually poor with the exception of Lampard and James, with too much emphasis on their own egos to rise to the challenge of playing in footballs ultimate competition. Terry is a prime example who will be praying Cappello resigns.
|
|
|
Post by nicko on Jun 27, 2010 18:08:13 GMT 1
Some good points made on here.
It will be interesting to see how much stick Cappello gets.
You can't blame a foreign manager for the short comings of the English game which have evident for decades.
The only thing I will give Cappello stick for is his refusal to sub Rooney.
|
|
|
Post by shrewswolf on Jun 27, 2010 18:09:37 GMT 1
It's goodbye England and goodbye Mr. Capello.
Say what you like about the man's previous records but he just isn't up to this job. It's not just this world cup either, take away games against Croatia and you're left looking at very average, at times, lacklustre performances.
He hasn't sorted the Gerrard/Lampard problem, he hasn't stuck to his "form players" promise, 4-4-2 is all he is willing to play, he weirdly continues with heskey and wright phillips and his like for like replacements - especially Heskey for Defoe - are quite frankly baffling.
I agree with those who say Redknapp, Pearce, Hodgson.. they maybe aren't the greatest managers - but Capello supposedly is and where has that got us. Maybe just maybe, the passion and drive alone from them names, especially Redknapp and Pearce, could turn these good individuals into a team. The same players are always going to be picked, they're afterall the best we have - but someone needs to push them to produce for England.
Fabio has been paid millions to get us playing some absolutely shocking football - and he can't even speak the language yet. Yeh, his English is better than my Italian!, he does pretty well but, how can a man who still needs a translator in after game interviews possibly get his message across to the players.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Rickerton on Jun 27, 2010 18:11:19 GMT 1
I know i'm not the most optimistic England fan but i couldn't believe before the game all the people saying noe of those germans would get in our team. Spot on. Even in today's game I heard the commentary team comment that you wouldn't swap more than one or two English players for their German counterparts. Even at face value you'd swap at least four players, and that's before you take into consideration good English players who flatter to decieve at the highest level (Rooney VS Podolski.)
|
|
|
Post by shrewsace on Jun 27, 2010 18:40:49 GMT 1
Since I've been alive, England have beaten Paraguay (twice), Denmark, Belgium and Cameroon in knock-out stages of the 8 World Cups they've entered. They've lost to Argentina (twice), Germany (twice), Brazil and Portugal. There's a pattern there. And it's nothing to do with the coach. Don't disagree with the overall point you're making but, to add some balance: We drew with Argentina in '98 and Germany in '90. We lost the shoot - outs, not the games. Argentina needed a handball to knock us out in '86. And on a pedantic note, I think we've only knocked Paraguay out once, think you're forgetting our mighty victory over Ecuador in 2006. As a 33 year old, post 1990 there's been very little to get genuinely excited about World Cup wise.
|
|
|
Post by rglenshrew on Jun 27, 2010 18:46:33 GMT 1
That back four must be up there with the worst ever seen at this level - I lost count the amount of times a German ran straight at them in their own box and they've just backed off, sucking them in and then it's shifted to either Ozil or Muller who could have a bus parked between them and their respecive full backs
The first goal you'd hardly see defending like that in League Two nevermind the World Cup, second Glen Johnson must have though Podolski was sent off he was given so much time. Upson did well for his goal but was helped by hilariously bad goalkeeping, and well, Lampards effort, there was just no way that would have happened in any other game other than Germany-England at the World Cup, Lawrenson mentioned '66 at every opportunity and for that to happen, the dictionary should be done again with a picture of that over the line under the word "Irony". Germany third goal again Muller could have had his dinner before Cole came out to him, and the fourth German goal was exactly what Germany set out to do in the second half after England got the goal back and started to up the tempo and attack and it worked twice.
And the worst of it all for me looking at a neutral viewpoint, I thought Germany were very average. They could have went up gear after gear and humiliated England further if they needed to.
So where does the problem lie? Capello? The media? The players? The linesman? A debate that will run on until the new season starts.
Capello - very stubborn. I agree with most England fans about Gerrard playing on the left when right footed, bringing on Joe Cole to the right when he's left footed, when your desperately needing a goal you take off Jermaine Defoe, the only striker who scored at the finals and bring on Emile Heskey, possibly the worst striker at international level planet earth has ever seen when Peter Crouch who has a good record, proven record at this level, barely gets 10 minutes altogether in the tournement
The media issue isn't new and it never changes. I've said it numerous times on here before that England won't win the World Cup again in a hurry because of the hype. I feel some sympathy for Wayne Rooney as all the other teams listened at the media who built up Rooney as one of the worlds best players and to their own credit have marked him out of the World Cup and he's barely had a kick of the ball. The media built up was the result of a very good qualifying games. Against who? s**te like Kazahtstan and Andorra. The seeding system has completely ruined cup football. The English say to us Scots and wind us up that we never qualify for WC's and EC's, it's because we, because of the seeding system, get drawn to at least one of Italy, France, Argentina, Brazil, Netherlands and this time Spain. Sometimes two like the '08 EC's that we were piped by Italy at the death, including beating France home and away (although that's not saying much when that t**t Domenech was in charge). Yes we could have qualified if we beat Georgia away but we wouldn't be Scotland if we didn't.
If you ask me, England are the best possible example of a squad of players who cannot play as a team. You watch todays game again, I think it was Germany's first two goals, nice little flicks and backheels to unlock the already open England defence. The first goal was so bad I asked my dad, who is 100% Scottish and supports England, if that actually happened. I'd be raging if I was Turner and I seen that at GM next season. And then you watch England - get the ball in any way you can to Milner and he'll cross it and hope for the best. One of the most arrogant things I've ever heard was Lowrenson again saying how many Germany players would get in the England team, one maybe two? Are you for ****ing real? He couldn't see how technically superior Germany were to England if a Scot themselve punched him in the face.
If the score finished 2-1 then there would be a national outcry about the goal that never was, and quite rightly so. My dad was like Capello, dancing around the livingroom with no hint whatsoever that it didn't cross the line. It beggard belif. That counts and the teams go in 2-2 at the break and it's a totally new game. That goal cushon already wrote Germanys tactics for the second half which we all seen pretty clearly. It did change the game, no doubt about that. I still don't think goalline technology should be used but Townsley was right when he said it's stolen England's chances of winning the game, because it did.
I heard the statistic that only 35% of the players that play in the Premiership are English. The Premiership is so good because of the foreigners who make it up. If the best defenders England can muster is Matthew Upson and Glen Johnson then something is wrong I'm afraid. The passing game you see that is talked about globaly barely consists of any England players at all. Other countries are so technically superior to the UK it's scary and it's clear as daylight. If you can't accept that then I'm afraid you're mental.
In a country that football is almost as important as life itself, the public will probably have their way and Capello will be sacked despite his £6m a year pay package. We simply cannot afford to give managers time and this may well be another part of the problem. I dunno, if Capello's English improves then maybe we'll see something a bit better but it's not enough as I say. You must deliver the goods immediantly and he's failed to do that and will pay for it with his job. I won't speculate a successor until he is removed but I doubt that'll be long off.
Had to get that off my chest. As a Scot who supports Scotland with no haterd/bitterness towards England, the above is as impartial as it can be.
|
|
|
Post by stockportershrew on Jun 27, 2010 19:12:18 GMT 1
The usual short term answers will be wheeled out (the manager, wrong systems etc. which play a role) but in virtually all the major tournaments I can remember (from the 70s onwards we've either (1) failed to qualify or if they've got there (2) tended to play some of the worst football o the tournament. Even 1990 and 1996 which are hailed as triumphs here we played poorly in the many of the games . The underlying problem of not being comfortable with the ball (& I don't mean the odd player I mean all 11), not retaining possession and then believing their own hype remain.
I was surprised before the game when I kept hearing that England were favourites or that the 11 English players were bettter than the German side. On what basis? English arrogance?
The future doesn't look that good either does it - aside form hart and Milenr in this squad did we have any others under 24?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 19:23:19 GMT 1
I heard the statistic that only 35% of the players that play in the Premiership are English. The Premiership is so good because of the foreigners who make it up. Foreign Managers will naturally bring in foreign players, we will soon have an England team made up of Championship players. I don't think many Premiership players have played well in World Cup to date apart from Howard and Donavan for the USA, even Torres has been poor
|
|
|
Post by rglenshrew on Jun 27, 2010 19:41:57 GMT 1
I heard the statistic that only 35% of the players that play in the Premiership are English. The Premiership is so good because of the foreigners who make it up. Foreign Managers will naturally bring in foreign players, we will soon have an England team made up of Championship players. I don't think many Premiership players have played well in World Cup to date apart from Howard and Donavan for the USA, even Torres has been poor It would make the young players be able to play every week instead of rotten away on the bench/reserves. How Joe Hart needs to go out on loan to get a first team place bemuses me. That's what Germany are doing - playing a young side who are only going to get better and looking to the future when England are climbing onto Gerrard and Lampard.
|
|
|
Post by shrewder on Jun 27, 2010 19:46:49 GMT 1
Anyone who believes changing the coach will make any diffence must be living in cloud cuckoo land. England players have no pride or passion about playing for their country. They are all just a bunch of Premier League overpaid attention seeking so called celeberety wasters.
|
|