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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 12:50:26 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2010 12:50:26 GMT 1
I'm hardly a Tory supporter (far from it), but I don't agree with the comment that VAT is a regressive tax. The majority of items charged VAT are not necessities but luxuries. Is it a necessity to buy a pint of beer, a plasma screen tv or a new pair of trainers? No it isn't. This is (mostly) a tax on concumer consumables, not a tax on the poor. Far be it for me to disagree with our Prime Minster who in 2009 called VAT a regressive tax I'm not discussing this with the PM, I'm discussing it with you and challenging your view points not his.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 12:51:09 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2010 12:51:09 GMT 1
I'm hardly a Tory supporter (far from it), but I don't agree with the comment that VAT is a regressive tax. The majority of items charged VAT are not necessities but luxuries. Is it a necessity to buy a pint of beer, a plasma screen tv or a new pair of trainers? No it isn't. This is (mostly) a tax on concumer consumables, not a tax on the poor. Far be it for me to disagree with our Prime Minster who in 2009 called VAT a regressive tax Why make it a blue vs. red "he said, she said" debate and instead look at the evidence presented to you above. Do you disagree with the content of loyalshrew's and TBH's posts?
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 12:52:20 GMT 1
Post by stockportershrew on Jun 23, 2010 12:52:20 GMT 1
VAT is a regressive tax to the extent that those on lower incomes pay a larger proportion of their income in tax than those on higher incomes.
Its not just luxuries that have VAT - adult clothing for instance.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 12:57:05 GMT 1
Post by Shrewed on Jun 23, 2010 12:57:05 GMT 1
I do believe whole heartedly that the poorest in society are best look after by a socialist party. . Id agree with that, however I wouldnt agree that Labour did that. I believe Ed Milliband has recently said the reason Labour lost the election was because they were out of touch with the working class Maybe I was a bit flippant with "what have labour done for the working man" but I can only speak from experience of myself and people around me and they certainly are not better off from the previous government. Well maybe we are but it certainly doesnt feel like it Basically my point is that you are very, very quick to criticise the Tory Government and make out they are the work of the devil. But I really dont see any difference between them or Labour Type in labour scandals and sleaze into google and Im not so sure some of the stories would fit in with your christian and social ideals Paul you seem to forget that Labour won 3 elections in the last 13 years, yes I agree with Ed Milliband that recently the party lost touch, but that is not true over the whole 13 years. It is easy to base your views on recent events rather than looking at the whole picture. Similar to how Windsor Jnr tried to reflect the whole of 74 - 79 by events that happened for a few months at the end of the period. One question for you do you have a mortgage? I'm not proud of what some Labour politicians did but I do know that on both sides of the House there are many honourable MP who have been unfairly smeared because of the activities of a few again on both sides.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:01:26 GMT 1
Post by SeanBroseley on Jun 23, 2010 13:01:26 GMT 1
Phil - I need to wear clothes and children's clothes are too small. I need a new pair of trainers if my old pair have worn out.
There is VAT on fuel. It is still at 5%, but it is VAT on a clear necessity.
I'd be in favour of a higher VAT on a prescribed list of electrical goods (if possible) than other items. How much of these things do we make ourselves?
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Deleted
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:07:43 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2010 13:07:43 GMT 1
Phil - I need to wear clothes and children's clothes are too small. I need a new pair of trainers if my old pair have worn out. There is VAT on fuel. It is still at 5%, but it is VAT on a clear necessity. I'd be in favour of a higher VAT on a prescribed list of electrical goods (if possible) than other items. How much of these things do we make ourselves? You can buy a pair of new trainers from Sports Soccer for under £5. the increase in VAT on that is 12.5p - hardly going to break the bank is it? I agree the VAT system is not ideal, and the zero-tax rate should be extended to other items. I've tried to find a breakdown of VAT revenue online but haven't been able to. I'd like to know how much of the total revenues raised by VAT are due to high-expense consumables such as cars, tv's etc...
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:09:50 GMT 1
Post by mrbunny on Jun 23, 2010 13:09:50 GMT 1
Obviously you have never had any dealings with them then.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:12:21 GMT 1
Post by mrbunny on Jun 23, 2010 13:12:21 GMT 1
Phil - I need to wear clothes and children's clothes are too small. I need a new pair of trainers if my old pair have worn out. There is VAT on fuel. It is still at 5%, but it is VAT on a clear necessity. I'd be in favour of a higher VAT on a prescribed list of electrical goods (if possible) than other items. How much of these things do we make ourselves? The thing is are the trainers you want a fashion statement? if they are then they will cost more,if you just need a pair as Mr T says you can get them cheap in most sport shops these days.If you shop around you find really good ones for less than £20,hardly breaking the bank is it.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:15:44 GMT 1
Post by Feedo Gnasher on Jun 23, 2010 13:15:44 GMT 1
I can see the VAT increase affecting business's maybe more than us, the paying customer
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:22:05 GMT 1
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 23, 2010 13:22:05 GMT 1
VAT is a regressive tax to the extent that those on lower incomes pay a larger proportion of their income in tax than those on higher incomes. Its not just luxuries that have VAT - adult clothing for instance. I can see that, and I can also see that essentially taxing demand in an economic crisis is a pretty strange way to go about it. But I do maintain the flip side is to a great extent it is taxing consumer choice rather than earnings, which incentivises earnings twice over, which is probably what we need to do more than ever. I am not saying what we are doing with VAT is necessarily right, but the way it is being portrayed is almost hysterical in some quarters of the media.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:29:01 GMT 1
Post by Shrewed on Jun 23, 2010 13:29:01 GMT 1
Phil - I need to wear clothes and children's clothes are too small. I need a new pair of trainers if my old pair have worn out. There is VAT on fuel. It is still at 5%, but it is VAT on a clear necessity. I'd be in favour of a higher VAT on a prescribed list of electrical goods (if possible) than other items. How much of these things do we make ourselves? You can buy a pair of new trainers from Sports Soccer for under £5. the increase in VAT on that is 12.5p - hardly going to break the bank is it? I agree the VAT system is not ideal, and the zero-tax rate should be extended to other items. I've tried to find a breakdown of VAT revenue online but haven't been able to. I'd like to know how much of the total revenues raised by VAT are due to high-expense consumables such as cars, tv's etc... VAT on petrol will from the 4th Jan be 20%. If only non essential items had VAT on them that would be fine but unfortunately thats not the case. If I need tyres for car or bike that has VAT. If I want to keep my home looking nice DIY has VAT. If I want to carry on watching the Town my season ticket (if I get one) will be £5 more expensive due to VAT. The VAT on an item is the same regardless who buys it so it takes no account of ability to pay - regressive.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:30:15 GMT 1
Post by Shrewed on Jun 23, 2010 13:30:15 GMT 1
[/img][/quote] But by all accounts they provide a good service for their clients.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:31:29 GMT 1
Post by mrbunny on Jun 23, 2010 13:31:29 GMT 1
[/img][/quote] But by all accounts they provide a good service for their clients.[/quote] Do they?
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Deleted
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:37:20 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2010 13:37:20 GMT 1
You can buy a pair of new trainers from Sports Soccer for under £5. the increase in VAT on that is 12.5p - hardly going to break the bank is it? I agree the VAT system is not ideal, and the zero-tax rate should be extended to other items. I've tried to find a breakdown of VAT revenue online but haven't been able to. I'd like to know how much of the total revenues raised by VAT are due to high-expense consumables such as cars, tv's etc... VAT on petrol will from the 4th Jan be 20%. If only non essential items had VAT on them that would be fine but unfortunately thats not the case. If I need tyres for car or bike that has VAT. If I want to keep my home looking nice DIY has VAT. If I want to carry on watching the Town my season ticket (if I get one) will be £5 more expensive due to VAT. The VAT on an item is the same regardless who buys it so it takes no account of ability to pay - regressive. You're missing the point. Keeping your home tidy, buying a season ticket to the football are not essential to life. They are a choice you make and hence a consumable. If you choose not to have a season ticket, you pay zero tax - simples. I could argue the same with the use of a car, but that depends on your personal circumstances as to whether it is essential to living or not.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:43:11 GMT 1
Post by mrbunny on Jun 23, 2010 13:43:11 GMT 1
VAT on petrol will from the 4th Jan be 20%. If only non essential items had VAT on them that would be fine but unfortunately thats not the case. If I need tyres for car or bike that has VAT. If I want to keep my home looking nice DIY has VAT. If I want to carry on watching the Town my season ticket (if I get one) will be £5 more expensive due to VAT. The VAT on an item is the same regardless who buys it so it takes no account of ability to pay - regressive. You're missing the point. Keeping your home tidy, buying a season ticket to the football are not essential to life. They are a choice you make and hence a consumable. If you choose not to have a season ticket, you pay zero tax - simples. I could argue the same with the use of a car, but that depends on your personal circumstances as to whether it is essential to living or not. Totally agree with MR T. You don't have to have a season ticket or other people have a new widescreen tv etc....They are luxuries which you choose to have if you can afford them.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:46:40 GMT 1
Post by SeanBroseley on Jun 23, 2010 13:46:40 GMT 1
Phil - I need to wear clothes and children's clothes are too small. I need a new pair of trainers if my old pair have worn out. There is VAT on fuel. It is still at 5%, but it is VAT on a clear necessity. I'd be in favour of a higher VAT on a prescribed list of electrical goods (if possible) than other items. How much of these things do we make ourselves? The thing is are the trainers you want a fashion statement? if they are then they will cost more,if you just need a pair as Mr T says you can get them cheap in most sport shops these days.If you shop around you find really good ones for less than £20,hardly breaking the bank is it. The ones I got were £25 and I also superglued the sole on the old ones, which I can use now around the home. I don't darn holes in socks I'm afraid. But I'm not low paid compared to the genuinely low paid only to the genuinely high paid. What is in a basket of commonly bought items is important because together with given technology it determines the rate of profit in the economy. Necessity is a culturally determined. My bow would be a necessity if I was in the Amazonian rainforest but is a leisure expenditure in the UK today. It will switch into a necessity in the UK in a few years time.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:48:56 GMT 1
Post by Shrewed on Jun 23, 2010 13:48:56 GMT 1
You're missing the point. Keeping your home tidy, buying a season ticket to the football are not essential to life. They are a choice you make and hence a consumable. If you choose not to have a season ticket, you pay zero tax - simples. I could argue the same with the use of a car, but that depends on your personal circumstances as to whether it is essential to living or not. Failure to maintain the home or means of transport is surely a false economy because in the end the job will eventually have to done and will cost more plus more VAT. I suppose I do have a choice live in a tip and use an unsafe vehicle or pay VAT. I could always I suppose use newspaper to wipe my ar$e and save the VAT on toilet paper.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:49:41 GMT 1
Post by mrbunny on Jun 23, 2010 13:49:41 GMT 1
You're missing the point. Keeping your home tidy, buying a season ticket to the football are not essential to life. They are a choice you make and hence a consumable. If you choose not to have a season ticket, you pay zero tax - simples. I could argue the same with the use of a car, but that depends on your personal circumstances as to whether it is essential to living or not. Failure to maintain the home or means of transport is surely a false economy because in the end the job will eventually have to done and will cost more plus more VAT. I suppose I do have a choice live in a tip and use an unsafe vehicle or pay VAT. I could always I suppose use newspaper to wipe my ar$e and save the VAT on toilet paper. I bet it wouldn't be the Daily Mail.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 13:53:08 GMT 1
Post by Shrewed on Jun 23, 2010 13:53:08 GMT 1
I bet it wouldn't be the Daily Mail. The problem with the Mail is it leaves a blue stain.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 14:03:32 GMT 1
Post by MartinB on Jun 23, 2010 14:03:32 GMT 1
The majority of items charged VAT are not necessities but luxuries. Is it a necessity to buy a pint of beer, a plasma screen tv or a new pair of trainers? No it isn't. This is (mostly) a tax on concumer consumables, not a tax on the poor. ...and part of the reason our society has so much private debt is that we have treated them as necessary consumables. We cry foul about "the poor" being hammered by a government that gives them shelter, sanitation, healthcare and money for food. Go to a township 10 miles from a World Cup stadium and offer a local the same. Top post Dave. I assume I am not the only one feeling slightly uncomfortable seeing games in fantastic stadiums in the World Cup with people little more than a stone's throw away having to burn rubbish to try to keep warm.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 14:05:01 GMT 1
Post by mrbunny on Jun 23, 2010 14:05:01 GMT 1
...and part of the reason our society has so much private debt is that we have treated them as necessary consumables. We cry foul about "the poor" being hammered by a government that gives them shelter, sanitation, healthcare and money for food. Go to a township 10 miles from a World Cup stadium and offer a local the same. Top post Dave. I assume I am not the only one feeling slightly uncomfortable seeing games in fantastic stadiums in the World Cup with people little more than a stone's throw away having to burn rubbish to try to keep warm. No you aren't the only one Martin.It'll be the same in Brazil i guess too.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 14:18:17 GMT 1
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 23, 2010 14:18:17 GMT 1
Top post Dave. I assume I am not the only one feeling slightly uncomfortable seeing games in fantastic stadiums in the World Cup with people little more than a stone's throw away having to burn rubbish to try to keep warm. You're not alone. The stadium in Cape Town is a case in point and a scandal. Fifa demanded Green Point be redeveloped because of it's location and views. But the Athlone Stadium is the heart of the city's football but that is in a township and so not to Fifa's liking as the image of the "new africa". The only "legacy" for Cape Town will be Brian Adams concerts with a view of table mountain while the local football fans will still go to Athlone to watch Ajax / Santos.
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VAT
Jun 23, 2010 23:20:13 GMT 1
Post by SeanBroseley on Jun 23, 2010 23:20:13 GMT 1
Top post Dave. I assume I am not the only one feeling slightly uncomfortable seeing games in fantastic stadiums in the World Cup with people little more than a stone's throw away having to burn rubbish to try to keep warm. No you aren't the only one Martin.It'll be the same in Brazil i guess too. And if we get the World Cup in 2018.
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VAT
Jun 24, 2010 8:12:12 GMT 1
Post by Shrewed on Jun 24, 2010 8:12:12 GMT 1
The big problem is that in many instances people do not know what VAT they are paying. My receipt from the supermarket does not tell me how much VAT I have paid.
Maybe the current Government will legislate for all receipts to show VAT, then maybe we will realise how much VAT we are paying.
The total of VAT collected by the Government after January 2011 will be in excess of £100bn.
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VAT
Jun 24, 2010 9:18:23 GMT 1
Post by neilsalop on Jun 24, 2010 9:18:23 GMT 1
It's not just VAT that will hit us, there is the public sector pay freeze, a stop to final salary pensions, redundancies across all sectors and cuts in Tax Credits and still the bankers are walking away almost scot free.
My take on this is:-
Public Sector: 90%+ of the public sector is essential (NHS, police, fire, council, armed forces, schools, etc) and many are doing a job that would (in better times) pay better in the the private sector. The final salary pension is not a little bonus given out by the government of the day, but something that has been paid into for many years by the employees and no-one should have the right to rip up an agreement, because we can't afford it now. It is not the public services that got us into this mess, so why should they be punished to get us out of it. FWIW we both work in the private sector and haven't had pay rises for the last 2 years and neither of us are holding our breath for one this year either. Now I know that this next bit bit will upset a few (if not all) of the ex-forces lot on here, but why are the govt. trying to screw civil servants, nurses, coppers, firemen, council workers and the like out of their final salary pensions, but are not saying anything about forces pensions. I'm not saying that they don't deserve their gold plated pension, but do they deserve it any more than the rest of the public sector do.
Tax rises. IMO it would have better to raise the level of income tax by a couple of % across the board along with increasing the tax allowance. I probably wouldn't notice an extra few quid a week going out of my pay packet. VAT hits everyone, but for those on high wages the rise will appear smaller, whereas for those on small incomes the cost of the weekly shop will appear much higher. I would love the government to go after all the Non-Doms and others that can pay accountants to get them out of paying anything into the economy of the country that gave them their opportunities to get rich in the first place, but this will never happen while so many of these people pay into the respective parties coffers.
Benefits. It's about time that it was made socially unacceptable to sponge. I know people that have never done a days work in their miserable lives, but can afford better and newer cars than us, more frequent holidays than us, more XBoxes, PS3s and wiis than us, can eat out (usually junk food) more often than us and even get courses at college for free that will give them plumbing, electrician, etc qualifications that will never be of any use to them or the world in general (I mean, who's going to employ someone with NO work history, that went on a course for 2 hours a week for 3 years at no expense to themselves, over someone that has worked full time, squeezed in a course and paid in full). The system is screwed up and needs a major overhaul, but I can't see this government or any other one having the guts to start ripping the system to pieces and putting the essentials back in and binning the rest.
The ConDems knew before they got in that things would be tough for a few years and we all had a chance to vote for the party that would be most gentle with us. I voted Labour, but I accept that not enough other people did and I'll have to accept what the majority want and hope that the all the parties can put aside their differences for a couple of years, stop bickering like 7 year olds and drag the currently p1$$ poor economy up by it's bootstrings, therefore giving us all the chance to see our standard of living improve. Ha, chance would be a fine thing.
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VAT
Jun 24, 2010 9:24:22 GMT 1
Post by Minor on Jun 24, 2010 9:24:22 GMT 1
The big problem is that in many instances people do not know what VAT they are paying. My receipt from the supermarket does not tell me how much VAT I have paid. Maybe the current Government will legislate for all receipts to show VAT, then maybe we will realise how much VAT we are paying. The total of VAT collected by the Government after January 2011 will be in excess of £100bn. Its quite simple just note which items are vat related add together and divide by 117.5 then times by 100 (or 120 then times by 100 after 1/1/2011) and presto there it is, hardly a 'problem' is it Lets face it , most vat is paid between businesses not private individuals anyway.
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VAT
Jun 24, 2010 9:49:58 GMT 1
Post by Shrewed on Jun 24, 2010 9:49:58 GMT 1
The big problem is that in many instances people do not know what VAT they are paying. My receipt from the supermarket does not tell me how much VAT I have paid. Maybe the current Government will legislate for all receipts to show VAT, then maybe we will realise how much VAT we are paying. The total of VAT collected by the Government after January 2011 will be in excess of £100bn. Its quite simple just note which items are vat related add together and divide by 117.5 then times by 100 (or 120 then times by 100 after 1/1/2011) and presto there it is, hardly a 'problem' is it Lets face it , most vat is paid between businesses not private individuals anyway. I must remember to carry around my calculator and a list of items that have VAT on them. Can't VAT registered business's reclaim their VAT, and of course then we have the business's that don't pass on the VAT to their customers. In the end the customer pays. . I to would be quite happy to pay an extra few p on my income tax if VAT was abolished. Now that is really progressive taxation.
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VAT
Jun 24, 2010 10:07:53 GMT 1
Post by Minor on Jun 24, 2010 10:07:53 GMT 1
Its quite simple just note which items are vat related add together and divide by 117.5 then times by 100 (or 120 then times by 100 after 1/1/2011) and presto there it is, hardly a 'problem' is it Lets face it , most vat is paid between businesses not private individuals anyway. I must remember to carry around my calculator and a list of items that have VAT on them. Can't VAT registered business's reclaim their VAT, and of course then we have the business's that don't pass on the VAT to their customers. In the end the customer pays. . I to would be quite happy to pay an extra few p on my income tax if VAT was abolished. Now that is really progressive taxation. Which HMRC office does your employer use, I'll get you the address so you can post your cheque for the extra PAYE that you feel like paying
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VAT
Jun 24, 2010 10:20:48 GMT 1
Post by siabod on Jun 24, 2010 10:20:48 GMT 1
Its quite simple just note which items are vat related add together and divide by 117.5 then times by 100 (or 120 then times by 100 after 1/1/2011) and presto there it is, hardly a 'problem' is it Lets face it , most vat is paid between businesses not private individuals anyway. I must remember to carry around my calculator and a list of items that have VAT on them. Can't VAT registered business's reclaim their VAT, and of course then we have the business's that don't pass on the VAT to their customers. In the end the customer pays. VAT registered claim back the VAT on what they buy in, for instance a garage would claim on spares they buy but then pay the VAT on the full amount when they resell, this stops them paying twice. Don't understand the second bit of the question, if they don't pass on the VAT to the customer how does the customer pay ?. If a retailer chooses not to pass the VAT on to his customers he still has to pay it himself as part of his overall turnover.
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Deleted
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VAT
Jun 24, 2010 16:53:03 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2010 16:53:03 GMT 1
It's not just VAT that will hit us, there is the public sector pay freeze, a stop to final salary pensions, redundancies across all sectors and cuts in Tax Credits and still the bankers are walking away almost scot free. My take on this is:- Public Sector: 90%+ of the public sector is essential (NHS, police, fire, council, armed forces, schools, etc) and many are doing a job that would (in better times) pay better in the the private sector. The final salary pension is not a little bonus given out by the government of the day, but something that has been paid into for many years by the employees and no-one should have the right to rip up an agreement, because we can't afford it now. It is not the public services that got us into this mess, so why should they be punished to get us out of it. FWIW we both work in the private sector and haven't had pay rises for the last 2 years and neither of us are holding our breath for one this year either. Now I know that this next bit bit will upset a few (if not all) of the ex-forces lot on here, but why are the govt. trying to screw civil servants, nurses, coppers, firemen, council workers and the like out of their final salary pensions, but are not saying anything about forces pensions. I'm not saying that they don't deserve their gold plated pension, but do they deserve it any more than the rest of the public sector do. Tax rises. IMO it would have better to raise the level of income tax by a couple of % across the board along with increasing the tax allowance. I probably wouldn't notice an extra few quid a week going out of my pay packet. VAT hits everyone, but for those on high wages the rise will appear smaller, whereas for those on small incomes the cost of the weekly shop will appear much higher. I would love the government to go after all the Non-Doms and others that can pay accountants to get them out of paying anything into the economy of the country that gave them their opportunities to get rich in the first place, but this will never happen while so many of these people pay into the respective parties coffers. Benefits. It's about time that it was made socially unacceptable to sponge. I know people that have never done a days work in their miserable lives, but can afford better and newer cars than us, more frequent holidays than us, more XBoxes, PS3s and wiis than us, can eat out (usually junk food) more often than us and even get courses at college for free that will give them plumbing, electrician, etc qualifications that will never be of any use to them or the world in general (I mean, who's going to employ someone with NO work history, that went on a course for 2 hours a week for 3 years at no expense to themselves, over someone that has worked full time, squeezed in a course and paid in full). The system is screwed up and needs a major overhaul, but I can't see this government or any other one having the guts to start ripping the system to pieces and putting the essentials back in and binning the rest. The ConDems knew before they got in that things would be tough for a few years and we all had a chance to vote for the party that would be most gentle with us. I voted Labour, but I accept that not enough other people did and I'll have to accept what the majority want and hope that the all the parties can put aside their differences for a couple of years, stop bickering like 7 year olds and drag the currently p1$$ poor economy up by it's bootstrings, therefore giving us all the chance to see our standard of living improve. Ha, chance would be a fine thing. if we still do post of the month, then this is it by my Labour voting comrade
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