Deleted
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The US
May 20, 2005 16:23:46 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2005 16:23:46 GMT 1
This is about the photos of Saddam Hussain in military prison that have appeared in one of the tabloids today. Taken from the BBC website (full story at news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4565505.stm) "The US said the photos appeared to breach Geneva Convention rules on the humane treatment of prisoners of war" How can they complain about breaching human rights with what's going on at camp X-ray? unbelievable really......
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Lenin
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 158
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The US
May 20, 2005 16:29:25 GMT 1
Post by Lenin on May 20, 2005 16:29:25 GMT 1
Lenin says the United States of America is a horrible dreadful place.
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The US
May 20, 2005 16:39:48 GMT 1
Post by CuyahogaBlue on May 20, 2005 16:39:48 GMT 1
Lenin says the United States of America is a horrible dreadful place. I assume Mr Lenin is referring to the current administration. "How can they complain about breaching human rights with what's going on at camp X-ray? unbelievable really...... " Welcome to the current administrations ability to morph all news, all events to it's own agenda.
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The US
May 20, 2005 16:41:59 GMT 1
Post by OldGit on May 20, 2005 16:41:59 GMT 1
Hmmm
The US does not exactly have a great track record when it comes to the Geneva Convention. I've just been checking some research by Jack Duggan which is paraphrased below:
Here are some of the Articles of the (Fourth) Geneva Convention that the US government is ignoring:
ARTICLE 27
Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity.
The US government broke this resoundingly by parading the Guantanamo Bay prisoners before Western television cameras, just as the Iraqis have done on their television.
ARTICLE 31
No physical or moral coercion shall be exercised against protected persons, in particular to obtain information from them or from third parties.
....and....
ARTICLE 32
This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person, but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents.
Afghani POWs were repeatedly shown to be forced to kneel for long times in chains on the ground, handcuffed behind their backs, suffering sensory deprivation by being forced to wear earphones and black goggles so they could neither see nor hear. The U.S. explained that this was a valuable interrogation method. We treat our food-animals better than that. A chicken has more rights than a POW held by the USA.
ARTICLE 45
Protected persons shall not be transferred to a Power which is not a party to the Convention.
Protected persons may be transferred by the Detaining Power only to a Power which is a party to the present Convention.
....and....
ARTICLE 49
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
The U.S. has forcefully transferred its Afghan POWs to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, which is not a party to the Convention, yet paradoxically claims that they have no rights under the Convention because they are not on Convention members’ soil. Such hypocrisy is beyond even the Nazis and Stalinists of WWII.
ARTICLE 87
Canteens shall be installed in every place of internment, except where other suitable facilities are available. Their purpose shall be to enable internees to make purchases, at prices not higher than local market prices, of foodstuffs and articles of everyday use, including soap and tobacco, such as would increase their personal well-being and comfort.
The US government has decided such a facility cannot fit inside the chain-link dog pens prisoners are forced to occupy.
ARTICLE 97
Internees shall be permitted to retain articles of personal use. Monies, cheques, bonds, etc., and valuables in their possession may not be taken from them except in accordance with established procedure. Detailed receipts shall be given therefor.
Yet the "Taliban" POWs have been stripped of all their clothes, papers and possession, even photos of their parents.
ARTICLE 124
Internees shall not in any case be transferred to penitentiary establishments (prisons, penitentiaries, convict prisons, etc.) to undergo disciplinary punishment therein.
All POWs there have been punished by extreme sensory deprivation and long hours of interrogation and separation from their families and each other. The worst punishment of all is the US government denying that they are even covered under the Geneva Convention and thus have no rights whatsoever.
Someday, the US government will invent a new term to call its citizens who are dissenters so as to deny them their Constitutional rights and likewise lock them up without due process to torture them for months to extract information ‘necessary’ for state security. It is then that only the government will decide which of its citizens are ‘worthy’ of any rights at all.
ARTICLE 125
They shall have permission to read and write, likewise to send and receive letters. Parcels and remittances of money, however, may be withheld from them until the completion of their punishment; such consignments shall meanwhile be entrusted to the Internee Committee, who will hand over to the infirmary the perishable goods contained in the parcels.
The POWs’ families have no idea if they are even alive.
Article 127
The transfer of internees shall always be effected humanely. As a general rule, it shall be carried out by rail or other means of transport, and under conditions at least equal to those obtaining for the forces of the Detaining Power in their changes of station. If, as an exceptional measure, such removals have to be effected on foot, they may not take place unless the internees are in a fit state of health, and may not in any case expose them to excessive fatigue.
On their flights to Cuba, POWs were forced wear chains and hoods so they had no idea what was happening to them. That was intentional so they would suffer mental collapse and be more pliable to US interrogators. This goes much farther than exposing them to "excessive fatigue." It is downright torture reminiscent of the Hanoi Hilton.
How does the USA get away with the above outrage? It does so by redefining reality:
The US says that the POWs are not POWs at all; they are now to be called, "unlawful combatants."
Unlawful combatants don’t deserve any human rights whatsoever because the biggest gun on the planet says so. It doesn’t matter that every other nation calls a POW a POW, the USA is above other nations, it is above the law, it is above its own citizens and it is above even reality.
US President Bush loves pointing out that, "America is liberating Iraqis from human rights abuses by Saddam Hussein." However America abuses the rights of anyone it so chooses by just by giving them a different label.
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The US
May 20, 2005 17:43:43 GMT 1
Post by BlueinSY2 on May 20, 2005 17:43:43 GMT 1
Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War, held in Geneva from 21 April to 12 August, 1949
Article 12
Sums of money carried by prisoners of war may not be taken away from them except by order of an officer, and after the amount and particulars of the owner have been recorded in a special register and an itemized receipt has been given, legibly inscribed with the name, rank and unit of the person issuing the said receipt. Sums in the currency of the Detaining Power, or which are changed into such currency at the prisoner's request, shall be placed to the credit of the prisoner's account as provided in Article 64.
The Detaining Power may withdraw articles of value from prisoners of war only for reasons of security; when such articles are withdrawn, the procedure laid down for sums of money impounded shall apply.
Such objects, likewise the sums taken away in any currency other than that of the Detaining Power and the conversion of which has not been asked for by the owners, shall be kept in the custody of the Detaining Power and shall be returned in their initial shape to prisoners of war at the end of their captivity.
loks like they can do that in the name of security
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The US
May 20, 2005 17:57:30 GMT 1
Post by NeathShrew on May 20, 2005 17:57:30 GMT 1
Excellent post OldGit! Sadly, it's not just the Afghanistan misadventure where the USA is guilty of such illegal and immoral behaviour. Iraq is the most obvious recent example but, to see other examples, just look at all the countries where they have either invaded overtly or been actively "helping" behind the scenes. Indonesia, Nicaragua, Panama, El Salvador, Chile, ... well, just about every country in Central and South America actually plus large areas of Asia and Europe Add to that the Military School of the Americas where they train, not just their own armed forces personnel in the subtle skills of torture, mis-information, regime destabilisation, etc. - they also invite the top military brass of most of the nasty dictatorships from around the world so that they can get up to speed on their own. Oh, it's all in the name of freedom, by the way Perhaps that justifies it? And perhaps it also justifies why Britain continues to support every last aspect of it
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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The US
May 20, 2005 19:16:21 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2005 19:16:21 GMT 1
Many of the people to complain about human rights abuses at Camp X Ray sport 'CCCP', 'Chairman Mao' or 'Fidel Castro style merchandise.
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The US
May 20, 2005 19:18:03 GMT 1
Post by jamo on May 20, 2005 19:18:03 GMT 1
Many of the people to complain about human rights abuses at Camp X Ray sport 'CCCP', 'Chairman Mao' or 'Fidel Castro style merchandise. ...have you been drinking ?
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Deleted
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The US
May 20, 2005 19:20:32 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2005 19:20:32 GMT 1
Many of the people to complain about human rights abuses at Camp X Ray sport 'CCCP', 'Chairman Mao' or 'Fidel Castro style merchandise. Does that make the slightest bit of difference? What's going on at camp x-ray is absolutely shocking
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The US
May 20, 2005 20:24:23 GMT 1
Post by pawlo on May 20, 2005 20:24:23 GMT 1
Many of the people to complain about human rights abuses at Camp X Ray sport 'CCCP', 'Chairman Mao' or 'Fidel Castro style merchandise. Many of the people to complain about human rights abuses by the CCCP, chairman mao and fidel castro support whats happening at camp x ray. How about we swap names here, in stead of camp x ray, why dont we call it Siberian Goolag. The similarities are startling. The Goolags (sp) where were the Soviet Union used to send people without trial who they believed to be (often with little or no evidence), enemies of the state. People would disappear for years. Not allowed contact with thier families and deprived of their basic human rights. America have for years defined the very word hypocrisy. If my memory is correct (possibly not i accept), but at exactly the time the Americans where involved in the cold war, fighting for world freedom, blah blah blah, black americans where being strung up in trees in the southern states, beaten by policemen and forced to live as an under class, with no rights and no representation. Are we all so arrogant as to believe that our way of life is the only way of life?
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Deleted
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The US
May 20, 2005 20:35:13 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2005 20:35:13 GMT 1
Does that make the slightest bit of difference? What's going on at camp x-ray is absolutely shocking Not in the slightest. And I agree with almost all of this thread. Beware diatribes against the US and look at the credentials of the authors.
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The US
May 20, 2005 21:23:03 GMT 1
Post by pawlo on May 20, 2005 21:23:03 GMT 1
Beware diatribes against the US and look at the credentials of the authors. Which means what?
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Deleted
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The US
May 21, 2005 0:09:28 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2005 0:09:28 GMT 1
Which means, before simply accepting an argument put forward by an author as truth, look at the author. I.e. If you're reading accounts of the origins First World War by Niall Ferguson and David Kennedy, then you will get two totally separate viewpoints. In order to evaluate their arguments, it is helpful to know the author. I spent 3 years at University listening to intellectually sterile condemnations of US and it's foreign policy (often managing to attack both its imperialist and isolationist nature) by people with pictures of Chairman Mao and Fidel Castro on their t-shirts. I guess there maybe a little bit of that resentment rising to the top on this thread
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The US
May 21, 2005 0:22:31 GMT 1
Post by robnli on May 21, 2005 0:22:31 GMT 1
Selected Military Writings of Mao Tse-Tung brillliant book
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The US
May 21, 2005 0:23:01 GMT 1
Post by robnli on May 21, 2005 0:23:01 GMT 1
fotgot to add, bomb the ****ers
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The US
May 21, 2005 2:46:47 GMT 1
Post by SeanBroseley on May 21, 2005 2:46:47 GMT 1
The thing I noticed about these photographs is that clearly Saddam Hussain is using hair dye again.
Castro's Cuba would have been very different if it hadn't been under a state of siege for nearly fifty years.
No doubt when he snuffs it Cuba will be turned into a floating Gala Casino and we'll be calling it progress.
He doesn't dye his hair either.
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The US
May 21, 2005 7:39:38 GMT 1
Post by faginy on May 21, 2005 7:39:38 GMT 1
always wondered what that adidas CCCP stuff was
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The US
May 21, 2005 8:29:11 GMT 1
Post by welshshrew5 on May 21, 2005 8:29:11 GMT 1
The thing I noticed about these photographs is that clearly Saddam Hussain is using hair dye again. Castro's Cuba would have been very different if it hadn't been under a state of siege for nearly fifty years. No doubt when he snuffs it Cuba will be turned into a floating Gala Casino and we'll be calling it progress. He doesn't dye his hair either. Lol at the first line. I also believe US policy towards Cuba to be outrageous, but still in no way does it account for the human rights abuses that take place there.
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The US
May 21, 2005 9:34:02 GMT 1
Post by SeanBroseley on May 21, 2005 9:34:02 GMT 1
I think it accounts for it in some part Gareth, when threatened from the outside the state will take measures to protect itself and that will involve forgetting that ordinary people were around before itself and that it is there to protect those people.
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Deleted
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The US
May 21, 2005 10:53:55 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2005 10:53:55 GMT 1
I think it accounts for it in some part Gareth, when threatened from the outside the state will take measures to protect itself and that will involve forgetting that ordinary people were around before itself and that it is there to protect those people. Yes, I do accept that and it can be applied in so many situations - interment of Japanese in US in WW2, Homeland security etc. etc.
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The US
May 21, 2005 11:39:51 GMT 1
Post by pawlo on May 21, 2005 11:39:51 GMT 1
I guess there maybe a little bit of that resentment rising to the top on this thread no resentment on my part matey, honest I just get a bit tired of hearing one sided arguements about how america is the home of the free and the protector of the free world, when all they really seem to care about is their own self interest and prosperity.
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