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Post by wiganshrew2 on May 8, 2005 21:16:57 GMT 1
I think there's a tendency of people who are managing O.K. to think that people who get in debt and can't manage are all irresponsible and deserve all they get.
I think the T.V. programme "Skint" really challenged me on that. It really made me think.
There's people who just live on the edges of society and don't have any share on all this consumerism that's going on all around them. They just don't have the resources to cope. Without a supportive family network, they just go under.
It might be because they really don't have the ability you need to live in a complicated society like ours. Or maybe they've come from unsupportive and unstable families.
In fact, It really brought it home to me that I'd been able to earn more money last week- just because I've been lucky enough to have a supportive family who've made it possible for me to study for my qualifications, so I'm "in demand" still.
There's not a lot of organisations that really give practical help to people in debt, who can't cope. There's advice- but it's not always enough.
I know there is a church in Shrewsbury that really helps, though- and that's excellent.
Our church helps a place in Wigan for homeless teenagers- it's a place they go and learn how to cope on their own before being given a permanent flat. People donate things for them that everyone needs- soap and toothpaste and household goods and all that.
Some of our friends once said, "Oh, they WANT to leave home, beacuse they don't want to do what their parents say." It's so untrue. Most of them are homeless because families have broken up, and the step-parents don't want them around.
My daughter teaches in a Secure Unit for teenage girls- and they've have horrific backgrounds- things like their mothers are drug addicts and put their daughters on the streets so they can bring money in for drugs.
Their behaviour is dreadful and they can't speak without swearing- but they've never known any different. They have to be taught by example. (I couldn't do it- I'm really a bit frightened of very rough people- but I can understand why they're like it, if they've had to fight all their lives.)
Sometimes there's one or two with real talent - My daughter's just helped one with her Art GCSE.
I've come to the conclusion that nobody can really judge people when they don't know what they've had to put up with in life.
Makes you think- some people (including me at an earlier stage of life!) congratulating themselves that they've worked hard and done everything right- maybe it's just that we're the lucky ones?
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Post by rob on May 8, 2005 21:32:14 GMT 1
The government need to take a stance a proactive stance, that it is not ok for
a) credit card companies to send unsolicited mail as sonn as someone turns 18.
b) that it is not ok for people to run up debts, large debts, on credit cards, debts that they will at best be unlikely to pay. It seems stupid imo when lenders continue to lend away, despite the fact they are aware of the sort of person (and finacial situation they may be in) they are lending to...
And one other thing, companies such as Baines and Earnst 9sp?) who charge people who are upto their eyes in debt for rearanging their debt, and then they often dont do a very good job.
CAB is the place to go.
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Post by lazyshrew on May 8, 2005 21:35:28 GMT 1
So many credit card and loan companies are all too willing to cheaply give credit to people who they know cnnot afford to pay it backand will obviously get in debt. Its time the government cracked down on these companies who screw so many people out of their livelyhoods.
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Post by goindownthewylecop on May 8, 2005 23:15:23 GMT 1
If people lending are 18+ then they should take responsibility for themselves, they choose to enter the agreement so should pay it back.
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Post by MeoleShrew nli on May 8, 2005 23:29:45 GMT 1
If people lending are 18+ then they should take responsibility for themselves, they choose to enter the agreement so should pay it back. Thats a very narrow view point, yes people should pay back debts, but peoples circumstances vary as to why they end up in debt, from those who couldn't careless, to the financialy uneducated and those whose circumstances leave them unable to cope with payments they once found no problem that turn in a blink of an eye into a millstone of debt around thier necks.
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Post by rob on May 8, 2005 23:52:45 GMT 1
outdated view.
A perfect example is a freshers fair at uni, when you have for instance the likes of Barclaycard offering free toasters, popcorn makers etc when students sign up.
Its hard to say no, they have the answers to everything, keep it for an emergency, 0% interest, free gifts, can be cancelled at any time and very often dont take no for an answer.
Maybe teenagers should know better, but we all learn from experience, and at 18 most people are either still living with their parents or have just left their family home and are adjusting to coping by themselves, and it is very easy to become overwhelmed and get yourself in a pickle finacially.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on May 9, 2005 8:34:52 GMT 1
If people lending are 18+ then they should take responsibility for themselves, they choose to enter the agreement so should pay it back. Or how about companies only lend money to people who have a hope in hell of ever paying it back? If you give thousands of pounds credit to someone on benefits / low wage earners then they will never pay it back the finance companies know this, and they will sit happily on the interest being paid every month at an exorbitant rate People are desperate, and our consumer society and media position makes attainment of things the primary goal for many people, and often credit is the only way they can "keep their head above water" And at 18 I don;t think everyone can make the decision to get many thousands of pounds in debt because some people don;t have the experience or capacity to understand the consequences and they think some rainy day all the money will magically float back. Student loans are a case in point, where many students I knew out huge debts and really have no idea whatsoever what it will take to pay them back and whether overall in their life it would be more cost effective to get trained on the job
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Post by OldGit on May 9, 2005 8:49:53 GMT 1
I think my generation was the first to experience the introduction of "Credit" cards. Up until then, "Debt" was almost a dirty word. Terms like "Tick" and the "Never Never" were applied to the limited options that existed to buy things on some form of credit. Because of the caution of our parents, most of us have grown up with a healthy approach to credit cards. However, its no surprise that the rise in consumerism and debt have been inexorably linked. Where households may have had 1 telly, they now have 2,3,4? Where having a car was quite an achievement, now 2 is the norm, and 3 or 4 is not unusual. The traditional "summer holiday" has now become joined by "winter breaks", "Easter s" etc. etc. And as for the rate at which folks buy carpets, furniture and "white goods", it would have seemed impossible to our grandparents. To them it was a case of save up and then buy; now its buy it now and worry about how to pay for it later. One of the best lessons to give your kids, is an appreciation of money; as my old man always told me, "you can only spend it once". Trouble is these days, folks think that doesn't apply anymore - till its too late.
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Post by shrewblue on May 9, 2005 8:55:14 GMT 1
Student loans is a very good example of allowing young people to believe it is the norm to end up 15-20K in debt as they will be able to pay this back gradually when they earn big salaries from jobs that they have got because they have a good qualification now.
Reality is a lot of folk are achieving degrees etc but cannot find jobs at a level that justifies their degree achievement.
Thus they end up with this millstone of debt arounfd their neck, there are just too many graduates chasing too few well paid jobs.... it needs to be looked at before another generation joins the heap! I think it is wonderful lots more folk today have the opportunity to further and higher education but at what lon term social cost??
This is maybe where the encouragement for trades apprenticeships should be encouraged to provide a more balanced workforce and supply of skills in the future!
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Post by Dan F on May 9, 2005 9:10:50 GMT 1
Maybe teenagers should know better, but we all learn from experience, and at 18 most people are either still living with their parents or have just left their family home and are adjusting to coping by themselves, and it is very easy to become overwhelmed and get yourself in a pickle finacially. Have to agree with you there (surprisingly!). Without going into too much detail, my own debt problems came about from being slightly in debt and managing, to it snowballing over a few years until it was unmanageable and bankruptcy was the only option. Would never suggest it was anyone's fault but my own, but when you're 19 and go into a bank wanting a £1000 loan and walking out with £17000 and the same happening again a couple of years later the banks also have to look at how they assess people's circumstances. Unsurprisingly the bank (the actual branch) who gave me the loans have since had a TV investigation done on them and been rapped by the Ombudsman...
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2005 9:13:04 GMT 1
Student loans is a very good example of allowing young people to believe it is the norm to end up 15-20K in debt as they will be able to pay this back gradually when they earn big salaries from jobs that they have got because they have a good qualification now. Reality is a lot of folk are achieving degrees etc but cannot find jobs at a level that justifies their degree achievement. Thus they end up with this millstone of debt arounfd their neck, there are just too many graduates chasing too few well paid jobs.... it needs to be looked at before another generation joins the heap! I think it is wonderful lots more folk today have the opportunity to further and higher education but at what lon term social cost?? This is maybe where the encouragement for trades apprenticeships should be encouraged to provide a more balanced workforce and supply of skills in the future! Everyone should have the right to further education, but it's vitally important that we realise that a lot of these need to be training to a particular career, or doing a qualification as part of an apprenticeship etc. as lined out above As regards debts as well as anything in life - like degrees. There needs to be an increase in the level of education people get. We need to be informing young people as they're growing up about the dangers of debt etc just as students should be told that a 2:2 degree is likely to prove to be as useless as a chocolate tea pot.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on May 9, 2005 9:54:32 GMT 1
We need to be informing young people as they're growing up about the dangers of debt etc just as students should be told that a 2:2 degree is likely to prove to be as useless as a chocolate tea pot. It all depends on the subject and the university. I have a friend who got a 3rd in Telecommunication and applied technology and walked into a £30k of year with a choice of companies
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Post by mattsnapper2 on May 9, 2005 10:08:13 GMT 1
the only way to learn is make mistakes and learn for yourself for someone who was deep in debt due to a robbery, you quickly learn life isnt better with new clothes or a fancy car.. as long as you can feed yourself and buy your mates beer now and then thats all that matters to all the youngsters out there.. do drugs, do glue sniffing.. but dont do credit cards !
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Post by tattooshrew on May 9, 2005 12:14:22 GMT 1
It is very very easy to judge people who are in debt or homeless without realising how easy it is for our own cosy little worlds to come tumbling down. About 4 years ago I was an ordinary, happy married man with my own house, nice car and money in the bank. I also had 4 credit cards I very rarely used. Then I became ill with depression, had a breakdown, even losing 5 stones! About this time is when I made lots of new "friends", who quickly advantage of my condition and helped me spend all my money. So 4 years down the line, thanks to God, a good doctor, Barnabas, and lots of good people like TBH I have recovered my health, but I now have no house, no nice car, no wife and thanks to the people who used me am about £18000 in debt. I consider myself lucky. I am still here, others aint so lucky. I have learned not to judge. It could so easily happen to you.
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Post by wiganshrew2 on May 9, 2005 14:08:55 GMT 1
It is very very easy to judge people who are in debt or homeless without realising how easy it is for our own cosy little worlds to come tumbling down. About 4 years ago I was an ordinary, happy married man with my own house, nice car and money in the bank. I also had 4 credit cards I very rarely used. Then I became ill with depression, had a breakdown, even losing 5 stones! About this time is when I made lots of new "friends", who quickly advantage of my condition and helped me spend all my money. So 4 years down the line, thanks to God, a good doctor, Barnabas, and lots of good people like TBH I have recovered my health, but I now have no house, no nice car, no wife and thanks to the people who used me am about £18000 in debt. I consider myself lucky. I am still here, others aint so lucky. I have learned not to judge. It could so easily happen to you. Well said and very brave. It could happen to anyone- even people who are in high-powered positions and think they've got it made. All people have their breaking point- and it can be the stress of a very high-powered job plus a family problem, or illness that can lead to that. As for the people in the programme "Skint"- they couldn't even get credit cards, anyway. They exist from week to week, day to day. One poor man was doing without good food himself in order to get good food for his 10-year-old son. In the end he had another breakdown and landed in hospital. Not all churches are like "Barnabas". Some are just empty ritual and people who wouldn't want these poor people setting foot in their church. They'd send money off to places- but if a desperate, poor, broken person turned up at the church, drunk and drugged to escape their misery, they couldn't cope. It no wonder it puts a lot of people off "religion." The daft thing is that Jesus would rather they went out into the streets to help people. Actually- "benefit scroungers" are NOT people like this- they are the clever ones who can work the system.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on May 9, 2005 14:22:35 GMT 1
as with all these things you always have to remember the people involved so many people have so many different situations it becomes dangerous to make sweeping judgements I get offered a loan a day and probably three credit cards a week through my door. I am tempted even though I am doing ok for myself, so goodness only knows what it must be like when people really are desperate I have known many people in differing levels of debt through a debt relief project we run at The Barnabas Centre (not Tattooshrew, he came on an Alpha course . The CAB gives people advice and advocacy and we give them food hampers for 12 weeks free of charge. Debt is a timebomb sitting behind our culture and at soem stage soon there will be many many casualties
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Post by rob on May 9, 2005 14:37:53 GMT 1
Indeed. All I can do is beg that anyone in debt, or worried about their finacial position whatever give your CAB a call. They are tireless workers and can and do often have a very positive effect on peoples situations. I don't know much on the subject, but my dad does and he often talks about the illegal way lenders persue debt, faviourate one is persuing dormant debt which has been dormant for years (after so long it gets written off, accept many people dont know this). He is also used to dealing with different subsiduaries of lending companies who are all seperatly offering loans and then persuing the loans. Completely rediculess.
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Post by jamo on May 9, 2005 18:57:22 GMT 1
to all the youngsters out there.. do drugs, do glue sniffing.. but dont do credit cards ! Excellent debate this slightly devalued by these preposperous words of "wisdom ". I can't believe for one minute that someone would advocate that young people resort to using death inducing substances as a preference to getting into debt, worrying though financial problems can be. Money problems can be resolved and dealt with. The Mortuary slab is somewhat more difficult.
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Post by Blues in Crewe on May 9, 2005 19:32:38 GMT 1
All I can add is watch out for the Student Loans company I had a loan for the year I was at uni which I started re-paying in May 2002 with the monthly deductions directly from my wages I had repayed the full amount by December last year however I since deductions have kept being taken (£90 a month) I have found out that the 18 monthly payments I made while I was in Jersey havent been acknowledged I have chased the inland revenue and my company (who legally cant stop the dedutions) I have submitted copies of my payslips (which declare the deductions) for all months and as well backed up from my company with copies of my payslips and a statement of earnings and although the Loans company say that they recognise that payments were made they can not process the overpayment immediately (as of mid March) and I am still awaiting their end of year statement until then they still are making monthly deductions
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