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Post by MartinB on May 3, 2005 14:01:23 GMT 1
If only 40% of people vote for the winners they are in the minority compared to the 60% who voted for parties that didn't win.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on May 3, 2005 14:08:06 GMT 1
If only 40% of people vote for the winners they are in the minority compared to the 60% who voted for parties that didn't win. it is also the largest group PR has not proved to be the answer to political fairness its proponents claim, far from it the diverse 60% could not form a strong government
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2005 17:33:21 GMT 1
40% is not a minority but also, you would get the BNP candidates and others in a PR set up Good. People deserve to be represented by who they vote for, and I firmly believe in PR.
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on May 3, 2005 18:12:07 GMT 1
I don't know if any one remembers the last time Maggie got in, but i seam to remember that they came 3rd in the overall votes cast, but won with an 80+ seat majority . So tell me how PR is unfair.
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DaveP200
Shropshire County League
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Post by DaveP200 on May 3, 2005 18:14:06 GMT 1
Incidentally, none have really shone for me this time and I am very close to voting green this time for their environmental issues. But people should also remember supporters and those in positions of influence within that group have opposed the New Meadow.
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Post by jamo on May 3, 2005 18:59:18 GMT 1
Mike Ion used to teach me - and always was a pretentious idiot. Hope he's a better politician than teacher then.
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Post by blue 44 on May 3, 2005 19:14:27 GMT 1
Maybe so, but I imagine a lot of people considering voting Lib Dem at this election are long-term Labour voters upset over Iraq, who could just shoot themselves in the foot in Shrewsbury, and allow Danny K a massive victory Dont understand this if enough vote Lib Dem we will get a Lib Dem MP
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Post by harmerhillshrew on May 3, 2005 19:42:33 GMT 1
Shrewsbury only went Labour because of the masive right wing vote tanek up by the UKIP< Referendum Party and Countryside Alliance stuff Must disagree with you here TBH. Conway was a pompus,arrogent twit who got found out for what he was.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on May 3, 2005 19:49:43 GMT 1
I vote in the Altrincham and Sale constituency which is so true blue that even in the Labour landslide of 1997 the Tory got more votes than Labour and Lib Dem combined My vote will never count, so I too am in favour of PR. What if it does result in BNP MP's, surely democracy is resilient enough to cope with that?
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Post by rob5251 on May 3, 2005 21:18:31 GMT 1
Danny K a full page advert in the Chronicle to tell us about his name - it is his choice, he's paying.
Scooter i think that you will find that political advertising comes out of our taxes.
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Post by Shrewed on May 3, 2005 21:19:06 GMT 1
The one thing for sure is if there is no tactical voting Daniel K will be our next MP. History tells us thats Shrewsbury is basically split 50% tories and other right wing parties and 50 % left of centre parties. This can be seen in the council make up.
I will be voting for the party where both the Parliamentary candidate and local candidate have knocked on my door and also because I believe they will be good for sport in this country and I don't mean fox hunting. So my votes will go to Mike Ion and Rob Curzon.
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Post by john on May 3, 2005 21:25:03 GMT 1
Good move Shrewed I shall be voting for Mike Ion who at least as lived in Shropshire for a while, unlike the blue giant who has been plonked here from somewhere else. I shall also be voting for Bill Morris who while being a good friend of ours is a genuine guy, Shrewsbury Town fan (seen him at the meadow loads, plus he's an ex steward) but he also treats Meole Estate in the same manor as Meole Village, unlike his contapart Owen (who I really dislike more than ever now) who doesnt know where Meole Estate is, but also doesnt want STFC anywhere Shrewsbury
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Post by rob on May 3, 2005 23:18:54 GMT 1
There are normally thresholds of between 2.5% and 5% in PR elections so as to prevent small minority parties diluting the system.
PR is and can produce a stable government, it has done in the past.
But what type of PR do you propose???
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on May 3, 2005 23:27:02 GMT 1
First past the post has served us well thus far IMO
PR has led several democracies up the garden path in terms of coalitions, power sharing, an inability to provide stable government and smalle rparties holding all the cards with their ability to make or a break a government
I am quite happy with what we currently have
I would not want a government that in order to retain power had to try and win backing from some of:
1) BNP / right wing 2) Religious Parties 3) ultra left wing 4) single issue parties
I just think PR is far too foten quoated as this great solution, but in reality it often breeds weak government and an over reliance on certain issues the the smalelr parties who make or break a coalition believe in
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Post by theoldcodger on May 3, 2005 23:42:08 GMT 1
Good move Shrewed I shall be voting for Mike Ion who at least as lived in Shropshire for a while, unlike the blue giant who has been plonked here from somewhere else:-/ Somewhere else being Ealing Southall at the last election.
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Post by rob on May 3, 2005 23:56:13 GMT 1
give some examples of when PR has made a countries political landscape more shakey and unstable.
It is a widespread myth that PR is unstable, as far more "democracies" floursih under it than fall appart.
How can FPTP be democratic when however many thousands of peoples votes in every constituency are wasted, count for nothing?
How is it democratic that labour can have a majority, a landslide on 33% (or whatever) of the electorates vote???
The last 8 years might as well have seen a dicator incharge, for all the democracy that we've seen in the HOC
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on May 4, 2005 0:07:26 GMT 1
pre Nazi germany
Italy
Israel
I put it to you that if France, Germany, Japan, USA, Canada and UK have stable democracies without PR then there are other ways of forming a government
PR is the instant choice of a level politics students and the Lib Dems, but I am far from convinced
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Post by rob on May 4, 2005 10:47:51 GMT 1
the italian political system was a joke, ravaged by secret interests and finacial and political scandles it needed reforming. And it is only in the last 20 years or so that there has been anything like a form of stability to the countries political system.
But I'm not surprised you picked Italy. Italy is normally chosen, because it is one of the few countries that has struggled with PR in Europe, but I suggest you look at the social make up of the country and their version of the north/south divide within the country.
compare the lengh of their respective governments.
democracy was always doomed to failure in weimar germany. If anything the political system put in place was to democratic and prevented any form of decision making. hence the average lengh of governments being 9 months or something.
germany was at that time also in a state of social shock and economic instability, rellying wholey on American investment and international loans to prop up the country. hense come the wall street crash, and the removal of america investment and loans they were fliped.
Israel is a mess. Half the electorate want piece of some sort and see Sherom as being too extreme, the rest dont believe he is being as hard on the palestines as he should be.
Dave have a look at many of the countris in europe who use different forms of PR, and have a look at how stable they are and have been.
For the reocord, despite your typecasting of me, i do not care either away.
Also there are many different forms of PR that are employed in many countries, it cant just be talked about in the general terms like FPTP as there is more to it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2005 10:59:45 GMT 1
I put it to you that if France, Germany, Japan, USA, Canada and UK have stable democracies without PR then there are other ways of forming a government Dave, you may have half a point there if it wasn't for the fact that Germany has mixed member PR, Japan have a form of it, and pointing to the US electoral system is possibly not the wisest idea.
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Post by rob on May 4, 2005 11:07:32 GMT 1
Also France employs the party list system with is a majority system, which require 50%+ of the vote
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Post by Greengrass on May 4, 2005 12:43:30 GMT 1
I think you need a mixture of both systems.
You must have some PR element because at the moment you cant truly vote for the party you best feels represents your views and have representation, especially where one party is totally dominant.
This would stop the curse of tactical voting too.
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