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Post by john on Apr 6, 2005 18:33:39 GMT 1
too right Gaz Jimmy Quinn's appointment being posted on here 12 hours before the press conference proved the point Wahey I found that on Northwich's board I knew I should of looked on the Celtic one instead
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 6, 2005 19:27:05 GMT 1
P.S I would also like to add Chris J that if you stood near me on the terrace you would know that I detest the biggots and racists at the back of the riverside and am normally one of the first to boo them sown (i've also made a complaint to the stewards about it before), my family has also been directly affected by religious hatred and racism. I do find racism offensive, however there is a subtle difference between shouting it in an abusive form and writting about a far right political point in an intellectual maner Glad to hear it HMA. Apparrently I do stand near you - maybe JP or someone will introduce us sometime? I started the booing of the 'IRA' song 6 years ago and got abuse in the ground and on the STFC email list (remember that?!) for doing so; I'm very appreciative of the fact that it's shouted down by loads of folk now. I do also appreciate the difference between shouting abuse and writing about it in an 'intellectual manner'. You might call me a windbag, a pompous git, or even a liberal bigot , but I do like to think at least I've engaged with the debate using reason and logic. I will also confess to having mixed in a bit of abuse for these people and, as I explained before, I make no apology for that. These people's moral position is that my friends and relations are lesser people than they are because of their ancestry and skin colour. They are happy to dehumanise people and judge those they've never even met as unworthy of respect, employment, human rights, and, in some cases, life. My response to that is both an intellectual one and an emotional one - "**** off nazi!". They are unable to have an 'amicable discussion' because even if you don't hate them, they hate and despise you. They have a different moral paradigm to you and I. You can't debate things with them as you have no shared values with them, no common language. Whatever you or I, (tories, labour, liberals, greens etc.) mean by justice, fairness and progress, these words have completely different meanings to them. I've tried, you've tried; they don't understand what you're saying and they don't want to. I hope that's intellectual enough for you.
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Post by harmerhillshrew on Apr 6, 2005 20:33:18 GMT 1
You can tell HMA (Rob) Chris J hes the poor student with the silly hat.
That poor infact he was off on ANOTHER holiday when we played Oxford otherwise I would have introduced you to each other.
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Post by pawlo on Apr 6, 2005 20:49:21 GMT 1
Just to put the record straight. Last night i requested that JP delete/move a thread that i had started, which he kindly did The thread ( FAO UKshrew/Cynicalshrew) was started in the heat of the moment in responce to some contributions they had made to a previous thread. I deeply regreted starting the thread because in hind sight it was very childish. I deleted my parts of the thread, which unfortunately left the thread up, but attributed the thread to mattsnapper, which was inaccurate and unfair on matt I respect the views of every "member" on this board. Whilst we often have excellent debates on a wide range of subjects, in an awfull lot of cases we simply end up agreeing to disagree and thats fine. If its debated in an adult fashion then there is no harm done. None of my posts are designed to convert anyone, all i can do, like everyone else, is put my case as i see it, and allow others to make up their minds. It really doesnt matter to me if everyone votes tory on May5th ( ), whats important is that we debate the issues. Its all well and good people saying "we dont want politics on here". Perhaps i can remind a few people of that attitude next time a group of politicians go hell for leather in an attempt to stop stfc building their new ground, for no other than political reasons. Freedom of speech? How can we cry about depriving a far right minority group freedom of speech when by definition that is what they want for a whole section of our society? These are people who spread fear and hatred, the very people that we do not want associatted with our club and as a community, these are the people that we should not be supplying with a soap box to try and spread there vile message. Now many people may suggest that the best way to deal with them is to enter into debate and prove them wrong. Well im sorry, its just not possible. They dont answer even the most straight forward question, they dont use there own thoughts or interlect, they just cut and paste from right wing web sites. How can you have any kind of constructive discussion like that. Im guilty in this, because i swore i would not answer there threads or reply anymore. Unfortunatley, i allowed myself to get wound up and bit back. Not anymore. People scream hypocracy: Hypocracy is gobbing off about racist chants and songs at the Gay Meadow and screaming that the stewards dont act, whilst allowing quite possibly the same people to come on here and spread the same vile message.
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Post by ssshrew on Apr 6, 2005 21:12:47 GMT 1
I have just logged in and read this thread with great interest. When the election was announced my first thought was should I post 'Can this board be Election Free'. However, I then read some of the posts and thought that it is good for everyone to be able to voice their views (a lot of you a younger and not so jaundiced re politicians as I feel at the moment).
However, I do feel that the best way to treat these awful far right people is to give them logical, coldly polite, answers. Someone has said earlier that if anyone who does not like STFC (e.g., SARA) were to log on and read them - they would think that the stereo type football fan is alive and well. But if these posts are followed by good, clear, argument and not name calling perhaps it would go some way to making them think that we are not all stereo types.
The far right must be wrong - all extremes are - but sadly there will always be people who fear that their way of life will be threatened and no of no other way to deal with it than be unpleasant, cruel, insensitive and ignorant - it is up to the majority of people to put them in their place and stand up to them.
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 6, 2005 21:20:55 GMT 1
You can tell HMA (Rob) Chris J hes the poor student with the silly hat. That poor infact he was off on ANOTHER holiday when we played Oxford otherwise I would have introduced you to each other. Is he 'Skippy'? if so I know who you mean.
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Post by harmerhillshrew on Apr 6, 2005 21:28:40 GMT 1
Is he 'Skippy'? if so I know who you mean. My description was so good ;D
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 6, 2005 21:33:51 GMT 1
My description was so good ;D
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Post by dachs on Apr 6, 2005 21:48:49 GMT 1
however there is a subtle difference between shouting it in an abusive form and writting about a far right political point in an intellectual maner I don't think Cynical's ramblings are particularly intellectual. His posts read like a first-year university essay by perhaps the worst student in the year who is trying to conceal the fact that he is not familiar with the subject matter. I have almost given up reading them, because the collection of seemingly unrelated sentences and statements start to make my head hurt.
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Post by rob on Apr 6, 2005 22:12:38 GMT 1
Get back to your udders you old bitter and twisted guardian reading liberal thinking biggot As for the holiday, taken by Amys family, partially paid for by my dad (as I didnt go on my school rugby tour to south africa a few years ago) Guess that too makes me a middle class guardian reading liberal biggot And that leads me to ask who then is Chris J???
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 6, 2005 22:57:51 GMT 1
And that leads me to ask who then is Chris J??? man of mystery! Hard to describe really. I stand with Bristolloggerheads, TexMex (when he's in the country), and Alec from Hereford. I'll say hello next time I see you.
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Post by AFCBally on Apr 6, 2005 23:38:00 GMT 1
hmmm racism tbh i think everyone is racist to a certain extent whether they think they are or not, black,white asian everyone. i am not even going to try and explain why this is the case as it would come out all wrong. I have had this conversation many times and although i don't class my self racist some of the things i think or say may be taken that way.
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Post by pawlo on Apr 7, 2005 5:32:27 GMT 1
hmmm racism tbh i think everyone is racist to a certain extent whether they think they are or not, black,white asian everyone. i am not even going to try and explain why this is the case as it would come out all wrong. I have had this conversation many times and although i don't class my self racist some of the things i think or say may be taken that way. No please try and explain. Its wrong to make a vastly sweeping statement like that and not justify your reasons.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 7, 2005 7:21:50 GMT 1
I think it all comes down to the interpretation Bally our kid. I'm sure you...like me...do not discriminate or prejudice or consider yourself better than others purely down to race? I'm sure you do not consider other folk as 'untermenchen' because of their race? I'm sure you always treat everyone with the respect they deserved regardless of race, yeah? Like most good folk...
Its peoples beliefs and the like that scare the s**t out of me to be honest...
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Post by jamo on Apr 7, 2005 7:26:20 GMT 1
I think it all comes down to the interpretation Bally our kid. I'm sure you always treat everyone with the respect they deserved regardless of race, yeah? Like most good folk... . He never treats me with respect, considering my age
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Post by Jonah guest on Apr 7, 2005 7:57:27 GMT 1
Last time I aired my views on this subject I was the target of some Chrisjs abuse and ramblings.
I just highlighted a couple of reasons as to why people have racist views. Immediately in his words 'I was talking boll*x again'.and labelled a racist in the same mold of CS. Amazing assumption from someone who doesnt even know me. Entitled to your opinion but less of the abuse just because someone airs a different view. By the way i would have answered you then but I was booked on a flight so missed the opportunity.
Chris you must understand that people have different views to your and dont live in a multi ethnic city like yourself.
Now about me. I have been around a lot longer than you so maybe the generation gap has something to do with our difference of opinion.
I actually own a company that has a 3.5 million turnover. The company is heavily involved in the export of electronic consumer goods to countries as diverse as Poland,Russia,Africa,Iran,Iraq and the UAE. Now supprisingly Chris my customer base is made up of several races and colours and I have a personal relationship with them all.
I listen to their views about their neighbours and I can assure you that racism is not just a white-black thing. The religion thing is even worse but thats another subject.
Talk boll*x I might do Chris but I am entitled to my view.
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Post by oranjemob1 on Apr 7, 2005 8:07:29 GMT 1
You might call me a windbag, a pompous git, or even a liberal bigot , Now look here mate! Let's have less of it. I'm the only official 'Liberal Bigot' in this village - and you'd better remember it.
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Post by harmerhillshrew on Apr 7, 2005 8:11:03 GMT 1
old bitter and twisted guardian reading liberal thinking biggot I think I beat you both ;D Or perhaps it does not count as Rob is joking Well I hope he is joking
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Post by rob on Apr 7, 2005 8:58:52 GMT 1
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Post by oranjemob 1 on Apr 7, 2005 9:54:33 GMT 1
I think I beat you both ;D Or perhaps it does not count as Rob is joking Well I hope he is joking 'spose it depends upon who has the most cred; Rob or Cynical
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Post by AFCBally on Apr 7, 2005 11:58:56 GMT 1
No please try and explain. Its wrong to make a vastly sweeping statement like that and not justify your reasons. maybe Sister Pab but if i tried to write it down it would come out all wrong and look a lot worse than it actualy is sorry. As for you Jamo we are both the same age so you get no respect for that from me Jam
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Post by pawlo on Apr 7, 2005 13:18:36 GMT 1
maybe Sister Pab but if i tried to write it down it would come out all wrong and look a lot worse than it actualy is sorry. Then pm me, its a difficult subject and you may have a good point thats woth explaining
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 7, 2005 20:11:02 GMT 1
Last time I aired my views on this subject I was the target of some Chrisjs abuse and ramblings. I just highlighted a couple of reasons as to why people have racist views. Immediately in his words 'I was talking boll*x again'.and labelled a racist in the same mold of CS. Amazing assumption from someone who doesnt even know me. Wasn't an assumption, it was my opinion of what you actually wrote. Ramblings? From the author of what I've just read? Pot...kettle.... (By the way, was that assessment of my argument based on anything objective, or just hurt feelings? Entitled to your opinion but less of the abuse just because someone airs a different view. By the way i would have answered you then but I was booked on a flight so missed the opportunity. Chris you must understand that people have different views to your and dont live in a multi ethnic city like yourself. But I wrote that because I was being told I wouldn't like to have to live in a multi-racial area. So a perfectly valid point to make I think. Now about me. I have been around a lot longer than you so maybe the generation gap has something to do with our difference of opinion. Really? Quite an assumption to make considering you hardly know me. I actually own a company that has a 3.5 million turnover. Is this fact relevant to the argument? The company is heavily involved in the export of electronic consumer goods to countries as diverse as Poland,Russia,Africa,Iran,Iraq and the UAE. Now supprisingly Chris my customer base is made up of several races and colours and I have a personal relationship with them all. Ahhh... the 'some of my best friends are black' approach. So what? It does it make me wonder why you subscribe to lazy stereotyping and wild generalisations. I listen to their views about their neighbours and I can assure you that racism is not just a white-black thing. The religion thing is even worse but thats another subject. I'm not sure what your point is here. As far as I remember what you wrote was about this country. If you go to Zimbabwe, racism is generally black on white. If you go to Fiji you might find it is Fijian on Asian. Try being a Turk in Greek Cyprus. And this makes it all alright does it? No, of course not. So what is your point? Talk boll*x I might do Chris but I am entitled to my view. Well, you have done so far, and I'm entitled to point it out. Better stop now before I ramble.
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Post by Jonah Guest on Apr 8, 2005 7:44:38 GMT 1
Chris you are obviously self opinionated and are always going to defend your corner regardless of wether you are correct or not. We will leave it there.
Maybe me and you should get together for a beer before one of the games.
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Post by Vic Reeves on Apr 8, 2005 12:36:16 GMT 1
ChrisJ - 'you wouldn't let it lie' ;D
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 9, 2005 13:00:37 GMT 1
ChrisJ - 'you wouldn't let it lie' ;D
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